Author Topic: CycleX HiPo cam chain tensioner & primary chain tensioner (Read 37573 times)

Kickstart · « **Reply #75 on:** January 23, 2016, 09:29:55 PM »

Quote from: Kickstart on January 08, 2016, 07:17:21 AM

...
I thought the original purpose of the slipper style tensioner was to reduce the curve radius the cam chain traveled through, to prevent oil from being flung off at high RPMs. Wouldn't the upgraded needle/roller bearing wheels still have this same design issue?

...

Bumping this... hoping to get some insight from those who know.

Thanks,
Chris

Bill/BentON Racing · « **Reply #76 on:** January 23, 2016, 09:35:40 PM »

Chris, common sense says yes. However lack of lubrication and heat caused the rubber to harden and deteriorate prematurely. The metal will last longer and not get smaller, changing cam timing and putting pieces of rubber into engine orifice's. Not perfect, but a hell of a lot better, Bill

MessnerMoto · « **Reply #77 on:** January 24, 2016, 02:17:11 AM »

One question is DID 219fth chain same as HD chain?

Found some info on DID chain(picture)

Bill/BentON Racing · « **Reply #78 on:** January 24, 2016, 05:32:57 AM »

Good info, thanks, Bill

MessnerMoto · « **Reply #79 on:** January 30, 2016, 06:42:53 AM »

I have been playing in 3d. I measured OEM cam tensioner. This is what I came up to. I still haven't disassembled smaller wheel on tensioner so I am not sure what is the diameter of pin that holds smaller wheel.

Bigger wheel has a hole for HK1312 needle bearing, so it will fit on existing pin(bearing). I designed smaller slider to have longer contact with chain.

For slider I am thinking maybe Polyamide PA6 + MoS material. Thats Polyamide plastic filled with Molybdenum Disulfide. It has
really good characteristics for this kind of applications.

For wheel I think grey cast iron will do(EN-GJL-250) or same Polyamide...

I am willing to open source it.

It would be nice if someone can measure or already have distance between center of crankshaft sprocket and center pf cam sprocket.

Bill/BentON Racing · « **Reply #80 on:** January 30, 2016, 07:15:36 AM »

That's what I wanted to do, have one right now with composite top pc (CycleX ) and metal roller (Yoshimura ) on bottom! I want 3 like in pics now!

, Bill G'luck. ....Keith?

MessnerMoto · « **Reply #81 on:** January 30, 2016, 07:22:52 AM »

Yes I read your post, that give me inspiration

. I can provide you with model or technical drawing... Mirko is the name

I will make for myself this tensioner. Also I will make one for primary chains.... also slider type...

RAZZ · « **Reply #82 on:** January 30, 2016, 11:19:47 AM »

Quote from: Bill/BentON Racing on January 30, 2016, 07:15:36 AM

That's what I wanted to do, have one right now with composite top pc (CycleX ) and metal roller (Yoshimura ) on bottom! I want 3 like in pics now! , Bill G'luck. ....Keith?

+ 1

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er · « **Reply #83 on:** January 30, 2016, 11:42:53 AM »

Don't you make it look easy!!

If we can get these going and find a preassembled 68 link HD primary chain we are in business!

Bill/BentON Racing · « **Reply #84 on:** January 30, 2016, 12:58:07 PM »

Mirk, you da man! I'll pm you! Thanks, Bill

MessnerMoto · « **Reply #85 on:** January 30, 2016, 01:28:29 PM »

Fill free to use y research. Also you can help me with your expertise.....

I have some questions. I am looking also in to primary chains tensioner. One can always sorted primary chains I found from 72 links to 68 links, but that 72 link gave me one idea.

Do you think primary chains will work in this configuration?
Number of primary sprocket teethes on crankshaft is 24? Cant remember and I don't have crankshaft near me currently.

Captain · « **Reply #86 on:** January 31, 2016, 04:00:39 AM »

You need to have a close look at how the cam chain problems were solved in the DOHC 79-83. The SOHC engine suffers the very same design error even though it uses a roller chain and not a HyVo
The whole problem of chain stability and tensioner failure is actually created on the loaded run of the chain (cam to crank) as the OEM guide is straight and so provides no harmonic or resonance dampening. The "fix" is to provide a curvature so as to keep the chain loaded into the guide at all times and this eliminates the resonance. This also has the advantage of using a portion of the chain free length so that the tensioner side chain run no longer is required to travel through a "dog leg" wheel which requires excessive engineering and even then is borderline capable. The evidence of this is the multitude of tensioner designs with all attempting the same thing, but none deal with the problem or root cause which is the loaded side. Why ? because no one has recognized the problem and it was the same for the DOHC engine. Using a curved guide on the front loaded side reduces the operating loads seen on the unloaded tensioner run and this then can be replaced with an adjustable curved slipper. Designing and introducing an engineered solution such as this has resulted in a complete reversal of the cam chain and or tensioner failure that the DOHC engines were renown for. This discovery and the parts developed to remedy the situation have now gone on to be extremely successful world wide and has now become standard fitment and a critical upgrade for competition applications.

Captain

Bill/BentON Racing · « **Reply #87 on:** January 31, 2016, 06:09:23 AM »

Captain, thanks. There's been some studying of adapting this to a SOHC 750. Takes a lot of time, but should be worth it, Bill

70CB750 · « **Reply #88 on:** January 31, 2016, 07:57:53 AM »

I will be pulling Red's engine and replacing the tensioner with something better, the question is what to get. She is a commute/tour bike no racehorse.

Recommendation? So far I think Cyclex solution will do.

bwaller · « **Reply #89 on:** January 31, 2016, 09:36:34 AM »

For certain a slipper tensioner is a much better solution and easier on the chain. However it's no damn good unless the sliding material is up to the task. A slipper designed for a hyvo chain may not hold up to our chains though. The 500/550/650 system is good in a stock engine, but I was breaking a slipper every race weekend. I think like the GSXR's and other newer designs, the tensioner should be fastened in the lower case nearer the crank, not at the top like our middleweights.

Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er · « **Reply #90 on:** January 31, 2016, 10:04:23 AM »

Quote from: 70CB750 on January 31, 2016, 07:57:53 AM

I will be pulling Red's engine and replacing the tensioner with something better, the question is what to get. She is a commute/tour bike no racehorse.

Recommendation? So far I think Cyclex solution will do.

Just use a stock one for your situation.

Retro Rocket · « **Reply #91 on:** January 31, 2016, 02:33:27 PM »

Quote from: Captain on January 31, 2016, 04:00:39 AM

You need to have a close look at how the cam chain problems were solved in the DOHC 79-83. The SOHC engine suffers the very same design error even though it uses a roller chain and not a HyVo
The whole problem of chain stability and tensioner failure is actually created on the loaded run of the chain (cam to crank) as the OEM guide is straight and so provides no harmonic or resonance dampening. The "fix" is to provide a curvature so as to keep the chain loaded into the guide at all times and this eliminates the resonance. This also has the advantage of using a portion of the chain free length so that the tensioner side chain run no longer is required to travel through a "dog leg" wheel which requires excessive engineering and even then is borderline capable. The evidence of this is the multitude of tensioner designs with all attempting the same thing, but none deal with the problem or root cause which is the loaded side. Why ? because no one has recognized the problem and it was the same for the DOHC engine. Using a curved guide on the front loaded side reduces the operating loads seen on the unloaded tensioner run and this then can be replaced with an adjustable curved slipper. Designing and introducing an engineered solution such as this has resulted in a complete reversal of the cam chain and or tensioner failure that the DOHC engines were renown for. This discovery and the parts developed to remedy the situation have now gone on to be extremely successful world wide and has now become standard fitment and a critical upgrade for competition applications.

Captain

That would be Vince & Hyde Racing in New Zealand, With the newly designed head, they are now getting close to 180HP from their cb900 {1123cc} engines with no cam chain problems at all. For anyone interested, here's some info on these guides from the guy that makes them, scroll down a little and have a read...His forum name is "captain"..

http://www.oldskoolperformance.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2167&sid=fd72736319bf79ac2292b7a3a0f30820&start=28

Edit, I just realized that Captain is now a member here and that I was replying to his post....

MessnerMoto · « **Reply #92 on:** January 31, 2016, 02:54:03 PM »

Quote from: Captain on January 31, 2016, 04:00:39 AM

You need to have a close look at how the cam chain problems were solved in the DOHC 79-83. The SOHC engine suffers the very same design error even though it uses a roller chain and not a HyVo
The whole problem of chain stability and tensioner failure is actually created on the loaded run of the chain (cam to crank) as the OEM guide is straight and so provides no harmonic or resonance dampening. The "fix" is to provide a curvature so as to keep the chain loaded into the guide at all times and this eliminates the resonance. This also has the advantage of using a portion of the chain free length so that the tensioner side chain run no longer is required to travel through a "dog leg" wheel which requires excessive engineering and even then is borderline capable. The evidence of this is the multitude of tensioner designs with all attempting the same thing, but none deal with the problem or root cause which is the loaded side. Why ? because no one has recognized the problem and it was the same for the DOHC engine. Using a curved guide on the front loaded side reduces the operating loads seen on the unloaded tensioner run and this then can be replaced with an adjustable curved slipper. Designing and introducing an engineered solution such as this has resulted in a complete reversal of the cam chain and or tensioner failure that the DOHC engines were renown for. This discovery and the parts developed to remedy the situation have now gone on to be extremely successful world wide and has now become standard fitment and a critical upgrade for competition applications.

Captain

So the main problem is that slider is not supporting the cam chain... if I understand it is not touching the chain ? So the solution is to stick out slider more ?

Retro Rocket · « **Reply #93 on:** January 31, 2016, 02:57:00 PM »

Quote from: MessnerMoto on January 31, 2016, 02:54:03 PM

Quote from: Captain on January 31, 2016, 04:00:39 AM
You need to have a close look at how the cam chain problems were solved in the DOHC 79-83. The SOHC engine suffers the very same design error even though it uses a roller chain and not a HyVo
The whole problem of chain stability and tensioner failure is actually created on the loaded run of the chain (cam to crank) as the OEM guide is straight and so provides no harmonic or resonance dampening. The "fix" is to provide a curvature so as to keep the chain loaded into the guide at all times and this eliminates the resonance. This also has the advantage of using a portion of the chain free length so that the tensioner side chain run no longer is required to travel through a "dog leg" wheel which requires excessive engineering and even then is borderline capable. The evidence of this is the multitude of tensioner designs with all attempting the same thing, but none deal with the problem or root cause which is the loaded side. Why ? because no one has recognized the problem and it was the same for the DOHC engine. Using a curved guide on the front loaded side reduces the operating loads seen on the unloaded tensioner run and this then can be replaced with an adjustable curved slipper. Designing and introducing an engineered solution such as this has resulted in a complete reversal of the cam chain and or tensioner failure that the DOHC engines were renown for. This discovery and the parts developed to remedy the situation have now gone on to be extremely successful world wide and has now become standard fitment and a critical upgrade for competition applications.

Captain

So the main problem is that slider is not supporting the cam chain... if I understand it is not touching the chain ? So the solution is to stick out slider more ?

Look at the pictures and text for a better explaination in the link i posted above ...

MessnerMoto · « **Reply #94 on:** January 31, 2016, 03:07:44 PM »

I have read it

... So the same problem is also in SOHC bikes.... Slider is not supporting am chain. I will model it in CAD so I can have a better look;)

I need to do some measuring first.... but someone can help with measurements.... I need a distance between center of crankshaft cam sprocket and center of camshaft cam sprocket and number of teethes on crankshaft cam sprocket....

Captain · « **Reply #95 on:** January 31, 2016, 03:43:57 PM »

Keep reading and Google about it to find more.
Honda made this mistake on all the models around this era and only got away with it through either having shorter center to center measurements (tipically in the smaller engines) and or lesser RPM ceilings. Neither the factory nor RSC recognised the source of the problem and this carried on right through the DOHC cam series. With the advent of 4 valve heads the RPM was rising and this brought the problem more into the spotlight. In 83 the DOHC was replaced by the V4 engines and the problem persisted and one of the attempts to remedy (successfully) was to gear drive. However this is expensive and difficult in production and so was reserved for only the most exotic models. It was around this time that Honda and HRC (who replaced RSC in name) finally figured out the issue and since then "all" cam chain engines have used a curved guide on the loaded run of the chain, some more curved than others and some less, but all have something in the way of a curve. Look at any modern engine with chain driven OHC or DOHC either auto or motorcycle, "all" have this feature.

Captain

MessnerMoto · « **Reply #96 on:** February 01, 2016, 02:49:04 AM »

Thanks for the info...

Using that I came up to this for primary tensioner. Chain is 70 links long. Everything else is in stock dimensions. The only tricky part here would be how to fix upper slider. It demands drilling of two holes in upper case

70CB750 · « **Reply #97 on:** February 01, 2016, 04:25:00 AM »

The stock one makes a lot of noise, the K0 never was that loud. I want to quiet it down.

Quote from: Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er on January 31, 2016, 10:04:23 AM

Quote from: 70CB750 on January 31, 2016, 07:57:53 AM
I will be pulling Red's engine and replacing the tensioner with something better, the question is what to get. She is a commute/tour bike no racehorse.

Recommendation? So far I think Cyclex solution will do.

Just use a stock one for your situation.

hotdog · « **Reply #98 on:** February 01, 2016, 04:54:00 AM »

Quote from: Captain on January 31, 2016, 03:43:57 PM

Keep reading and Google about it to find more.
Honda made this mistake on all the models around this era and only got away with it through either having shorter center to center measurements (tipically in the smaller engines) and or lesser RPM ceilings. Neither the factory nor RSC recognised the source of the problem and this carried on right through the DOHC cam series. With the advent of 4 valve heads the RPM was rising and this brought the problem more into the spotlight. In 83 the DOHC was replaced by the V4 engines and the problem persisted and one of the attempts to remedy (successfully) was to gear drive. However this is expensive and difficult in production and so was reserved for only the most exotic models. It was around this time that Honda and HRC (who replaced RSC in name) finally figured out the issue and since then "all" cam chain engines have used a curved guide on the loaded run of the chain, some more curved than others and some less, but all have something in the way of a curve. Look at any modern engine with chain driven OHC or DOHC either auto or motorcycle, "all" have this feature.

Captain

Are Vince and Hyde planning to produce a guide for the sohc engine..?
Nice gear primaries in the dohc motor BTW....

Sent from my HTC_M9u using Tapatalk

gschuld · « **Reply #99 on:** February 01, 2016, 07:10:30 AM »

These are the photos from the Vince and Hyde posts mentioned.

I am interested in this as well. Forgive my ignorance(and continuing thread drift) but is Mark at M3 the only one who has developed, raced, and marketed a slipper type chain tensioner system specifically for the cb750?

George

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Author Topic: CycleX HiPo cam chain tensioner & primary chain tensioner (Read 37573 times)