Author Topic: Igniton / Coil recommendation for CB550  (Read 5572 times)

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Offline jdizon

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Igniton / Coil recommendation for CB550
« on: August 28, 2015, 05:25:07 pm »
Hey Guys,

I'd like your opinion on Coil choices for a 78 mostly stock cb550k. I do anticipate on doing some performance upgrades in the very near future. I've got a custom frame and I'm att the point where the Coil mounts need to get fabricated. I was planning to use the stock mounts as a guide but if I plan to go with an electronic ignition let's say pamco/dyna would the stock coils be sufficient? I'd hate to have to re-fab new mounts for new coils if I need to go with something else. What is a new style coil I can use with the stock setup and be ready for an electronic when the time comes? I was thinking Dyna DC8-1? Thoughts?

Thanks!

Offline calj737

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Re: Igniton / Coil recommendation for CB550
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2015, 05:30:13 pm »
Electronic ignitions are compatible with stock coils. If you do opt for replace to coils, use 5.0 Ohm units only. Aside from the benefit of replaceable plug wires, stock units generally don't go bad.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Igniton / Coil recommendation for CB550
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2015, 05:35:01 pm »
Hey Guys,

I'd like your opinion on Coil choices for a 78 mostly stock cb550k. I do anticipate on doing some performance upgrades in the very near future. I've got a custom frame and I'm att the point where the Coil mounts need to get fabricated. I was planning to use the stock mounts as a guide but if I plan to go with an electronic ignition let's say pamco/dyna would the stock coils be sufficient? I'd hate to have to re-fab new mounts for new coils if I need to go with something else. What is a new style coil I can use with the stock setup and be ready for an electronic when the time comes? I was thinking Dyna DC8-1? Thoughts?

Thanks!

At the very least, use the Dyna 5 ohm coils or Honda's own, or the ones sold by PartsNmore (Sakura brand) for the CB750 1969-1975 type. The 550 does not make much electrical power. Using either a 60w halogen headlight or a Dyna S ignition will leave you with chronic low-battery problems, or worse. If you use 3-ohm coils, you will have a dead battery almost all the time (i.e., less than 10 volts).
;)
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Offline jdizon

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Re: Igniton / Coil recommendation for CB550
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2015, 05:52:26 pm »
Thanks for the feedback calj737 & HondaMan. I'll make sure to go with 5-ohm coils as suggested.
This is the part I was looking at:

http://4into1.com/dyna-5-ohm-black-coils-dual-output-dc8-1/

or the bundle with the mount for the coils

http://www.charlies-place.com/shop/coils-dyna-high-output/


Offline calj737

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Re: Igniton / Coil recommendation for CB550
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2015, 07:30:25 pm »
The Dyna coils will mount using the stock brackets.
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Offline goldarrow

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Re: Igniton / Coil recommendation for CB550
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2015, 07:59:35 pm »
Stock coils rarely fail, but the wires do
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Offline jdizon

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Re: Igniton / Coil recommendation for CB550
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2015, 08:36:04 pm »

The Dyna coils will mount using the stock brackets.

Good to know. I'll just fab the frame mount using the existing stock coil mount. Thanks for confirming!


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Offline jdizon

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Re: Igniton / Coil recommendation for CB550
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2015, 08:36:54 pm »

Stock coils rarely fail, but the wires do

Thanks I'll be replacing the wires


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Offline goldarrow

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Re: Igniton / Coil recommendation for CB550
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2015, 08:48:18 pm »


Stock coils rarely fail, but the wires do

Thanks I'll be replacing the wires


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But problem is that stock wires are fixed to the coils
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Offline jdizon

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Re: Igniton / Coil recommendation for CB550
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2015, 08:57:29 pm »
Forgot about that small detail lol. I'll just pick up a set of dyna coils as suggested!


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Offline Trad

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Re: Igniton / Coil recommendation for CB550
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2015, 10:40:31 pm »
Forgot about that small detail lol. I'll just pick up a set of dyna coils as suggested!


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You can also get NGK plug wire splicers and get new wires. Cut the existing plug wires about 4"' from the coil body and you can setup the splice from there. I've used them with new 5ohm NGK caps and had no issues at all.
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Offline pamcopete

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Re: Igniton / Coil recommendation for CB550
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2015, 04:52:24 am »
Stock points using the stock 5 Ohm coils will draw  14.5/5 = 2.9 Amps but with the 190 degree dwell angle  they are only on 190/360 = .52 of  the time with the engine running, so they each will draw an average of .52 X 2.9 = 1.53 Amps times 2 coils for a total of 3.06 Amps.

If you use a PAMCO with 3 Ohm coils they will draw 14/3 = 4.66 Amps but with the PAMCO dwell angle of 120 degrees they will draw an average of 120/360 = .33 X 4.66 = 1.53 Amps each times 2 coils for a total of 3.1 Amps. This is only .04 Amps more than points with 5 Ohm coils. I use 14 Volts for the PAMCO instead of 14.5 because there is a .5 volt drop across the driving transistor.

If you use a PAMCO with 5 Ohm coils they will draw 14/5 = 2.8 Amps but with the PAMCO dwell angle of 120 degrees they will draw an average of 120/360 = .33 X 2.8 = .94 Amps each times 2 coils for a total of 1.8 Amps. This is close to half the current of the stock points setup. I use 14 Volts for the PAMCO instead of 14.5 because there is a .5 volt drop across the driving transistor.

The PAMCO electronics itself only  draws a negligible .01 Amps. (10 ma)

A typical electronic ignition system will produce about 50% higher output than a points system with a given coil. This means that you could reduce the dwell angle about 50% and get the same output. In the case of the PAMCO, That would mean a dwell angle of 190/2 = 95 degrees. The PAMCO dwell angle is 120 degrees or 63% of the points dwell angle so it will produce a higher output even though the dwell angle is less using the stock 5 Ohm coils. The results are better with a 3 Ohm coil with about the same current draw.

If you lost your alternator on the road and noticed when the battery was fully charged, and you stopped to turn off the headlight and disconnected the regulator, the points system would last 14/3 = 4.66 hours just running the ignition. The PAMCO with 5 Ohms coils would last 14/1.8 = 7.7 hours just running the ignition. Both examples are assuming the 14 AH battery drops to 10.5 Volts which is the official definition of a discharged battery. In fact, both setups would last longer until the battery voltage dropped to about 7 Volts. (Note: when you stop to turn off the headlight and disconnect the regulator, do not use the electric starter!)
 
Of course, we never notice the bad alternator until the battery is almost dead, so lets assume the battery has discharged by 50% when we finally notice it. That would mean that the points would give you 4.6 / 2 = 2.3 hours  and the PAMCO would provide about 7.7 / 2 = 3.8 hours to ride back to home base provided you don't stop for a beer along the way and use up the remaining battery by starting it.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 05:27:16 am by pamcopete »

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Igniton / Coil recommendation for CB550
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2015, 08:34:42 am »
Visiting German, French, British, Italian SOHCsites besides this one here, I can assure you guys these power output complaints are all with Americans that probably use their motorcycle as a moped to move from one traffic light to the next one and in between are afraid to go over 3000 rpm. In answer to all the above calculations here's a question: why is it I have never depleted my battery in all these years running a 55/60 Watts halogen and 3 Ohms Dyna coils (without even bothering to install a 1-2 Ohm ballast resistor although I recommend it)?
In some European countries like Holland and Germany later 500/550 models even came standard with the H4 55/60 Watts. On early models the change was often done by the importers but the H4 for the CB500-550K3/K4 is clearly shown in the parts list on p.44 (#17). http://www.honda4fun.com/pdf_parts_list/pdf_spac500-550/CB500-550_K3-K4.pdf It's a Philips H4. BTW, if you wonder why the models with area code F (France) had a different partsnumber, you must know that in those days a yellow headlight was still the norm in France (better in fog and snow).
 Although the CB500/550s power output is not overwhelming, there's plenty juice for normal riding and some extra's. Here's my extra. Since decades the little PA slideswitch (to give lightsignals) on mine is lame. I suppose the little spring inside that makes the switch return when released, is broken. Now I always ride with headlight low beam on but the number of times that I discovered (for example when entering a tunnel and seeing the blue high beam idiot light on) that the PA slide switch must accidentily have slided in the on position causing both the low (55Watts) and high (60 Watts) filament in the H4 to be on... Yet I never had a depleted battery.
I remember the 500/550K3 in our part of the world came standard with a 55/60 Watts halogen  and there's no difference in generators (I've checked).
The US CB550 models didn't have 55/60 but did have those silly extra running lights in the front indicators adding 15 Watts more consumption. I've been riding my 500 (supposed to deliver 200 Watts @ 5000 rpm) with a 55/60 Watts halogen since I bought the bike in 1980 (it was already fitted and practically everybody has them here) and I have always returned from trips with the battery well charged. In fact the two Yuasa batteries I had, have each lived 6 and a half years, be it that the last six months I had to use the kickstarter. With cheaper batteries I've always managed 4-5 years.
My experience is there's no problem with the CB500/550 power output but... there can be a problem with the way you use your bike. If you really have a problem with charging, I suggest to look for the Philips Ecovision, a H4 that perfoms like a 55/60 halogen but draws 20% less. Excellent halogen light and with 44/48 Watts consumption it's a relative cheap solution. Philips always came out best in tests. If you have no charging issues (meaning you use your bike for what it was intended) you can even select Philips' X-treme vision. Recommended.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 12:47:21 pm by Deltarider »
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Offline Duanob

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Re: Igniton / Coil recommendation for CB550
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2015, 10:26:47 am »
"(supposed to deliver 200 Watts @ 5000 rpm)"

Can't say I've ever heard that. More like 180 watts on a perfectly running charging system with no old wiring, corroded connections, etc. And those silly running lights are law so what do you suggest? That's life in America and that's why we don't put 3ohm coils on a 550. It doesn't increase power to the rear wheel anyway so 5ohm coils work perfect.
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Igniton / Coil recommendation for CB550
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2015, 11:01:07 am »
Quote
Can't say I've ever heard that. More like 180 watts on a perfectly running charging system with no old wiring, corroded connections, etc.

Then how is it I always returned from trips with a well charged battery? Isn't 180 Watts more than sufficient? Or are your brakelight and blinkers on all the time? I use my motorcycle on the open road (that is 60 Watts headlamp, 5 Watts taillight and occasionaly blinkers, brakelight and horn. That leaves a lot for the ignition, don't you think? In town I walk or use my pedal bike. Better for me, better for the bike, better for the planet.
Quote
And those silly running lights are law so what do you suggest?

Law?! Serious? What good is that?! I can't remember that. My Wing GL1100D Interstate didn't have them. What I suggest? How about a good H4 headlamp that allows you to ride safely at night and abstain from no use gadget lights that make your bike look cheap.
Quote
That's life in America and that's why we don't put 3ohm coils on a 550. It doesn't increase power to the rear wheel anyway so 5ohm coils work perfect.
Oh, but I should never had bought those 3 Ohm dyna coils (silly of me) but with a 1-2 Ohm ballast resistor you can still make the best of it.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 11:24:17 am by Deltarider »
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Offline CBGhia

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Re: Igniton / Coil recommendation for CB550
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2015, 11:20:02 am »
Hey Guys,

I'd like your opinion on Coil choices for a 78 mostly stock cb550k. I do anticipate on doing some performance upgrades in the very near future. I've got a custom frame and I'm att the point where the Coil mounts need to get fabricated. I was planning to use the stock mounts as a guide but if I plan to go with an electronic ignition let's say pamco/dyna would the stock coils be sufficient? I'd hate to have to re-fab new mounts for new coils if I need to go with something else. What is a new style coil I can use with the stock setup and be ready for an electronic when the time comes? I was thinking Dyna DC8-1? Thoughts?

Thanks!

At the very least, use the Dyna 5 ohm coils or Honda's own, or the ones sold by PartsNmore (Sakura brand) for the CB750 1969-1975 type. The 550 does not make much electrical power. Using either a 60w halogen headlight or a Dyna S ignition will leave you with chronic low-battery problems, or worse. If you use 3-ohm coils, you will have a dead battery almost all the time (i.e., less than 10 volts).
;)

Since HondaMan is too humble to mention it, I will say that you can't go wrong with good stock points and his HondaMan Transistorized Ignition box.  It's awesome.  I have been running one for years and I never have to adjust my points or timing.  The only trouble I have had with points since getting it was due to cheap points that broke on the hammer side.
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Igniton / Coil recommendation for CB550
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2015, 11:29:03 am »
Agreed. I built my own transistor ignition module long time ago. At the moment it is broken because of wires that got stiff and came loose from the soldering. Tip: use supple (silicon?) wires.
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Offline Duanob

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Re: Igniton / Coil recommendation for CB550
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2015, 11:49:23 am »
Quote
Can't say I've ever heard that. More like 180 watts on a perfectly running charging system with no old wiring, corroded connections, etc.

Then how is it I always returned from trips with a well charged battery? Isn't 180 Watts more than sufficient? Or are your brakelight and blinkers on all the time? I use my motorcycle on the open road (that is 60 Watts headlamp, 5 Watts taillight and occasionaly blinkers, brakelight and horn. That leaves a lot for the ignition, don't you think? In town I walk or use my pedal bike. Better for me, better for the bike, better for the planet.
Quote
And those silly running lights are law so what do you suggest?

Law?! Serious? What good is that?! I can't remember that. My Wing GL1100D Interstate didn't have them. What I suggest? How about a good H4 headlamp that allows you to ride safely at night and abstain from no use gadget lights that make your bike look cheap.
Quote
That's life in America and that's why we don't put 3ohm coils on a 550. It doesn't increase power to the rear wheel anyway so 5ohm coils work perfect.
Oh, but I should never had bought those 3 Ohm dyna coils (silly of me) but with a 1-2 Ohm ballast resistor you can still make the best of it.

If you weren't 10 hours ahead of me I would say you need a serious cup of strong coffee. Maybe perhaps a nap? Sorry the rest of the world doesn't abide by Delta's version of how things should be. I know most Euro's think the universe still revolves around them. But we don't.

The running lights are a law in our country, can't really change that. And I wish TT was here because he would back me up on how a 550 charging system really works in the real world, that's who I learned it from.
"Just because you flush a butt-load of money down the toilet, doesn't make the toilet worth more",  My Step-Father the Unknown Poet

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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Igniton / Coil recommendation for CB550
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2015, 12:35:19 am »
Quote
If you weren't 10 hours ahead of me I would say you need a serious cup of strong coffee. Maybe perhaps a nap? Sorry the rest of the world doesn't abide by Delta's version of how things should be. I know most Euro's think the universe still revolves around them. But we don't.
Not really relevant is it?

Quote
The running lights are a law in our country, can't really change that,
And I wish TT was here because he would back me up on how a 550 charging system really works in the real world, that's who I learned it from.
Are you saying that overhere where you don't read complaints about depleted batteries it is not a real world? That's quite arrogant isn't it? Shows us what you think the universe revolves around. I have no idea how TT rode his bike. The only thing I do know, is that I've never returned from trips with a battery that wasn't well charged. And as far as TT, who you learned from so much, you may be surprised to learn from me, I do years with a genuine paper air filter element. 
I find it good practice to confront stuff I read here with 35 years experience in CB500 use.
BTW, don't you wonder why Honda, if the charging was really that poor, never updated the generator of the 500/550s in over 7 years?
Here's a practical tip to learn more about the CB500/550 charging. Position your bike, idling and headlamp on, so that you can see the light reflected. Now gradually rev from around 1100 to the rpm where the headlight stops becoming brighter. Interesting isn't it? And that's what it is all about.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 03:23:31 am by Deltarider »
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Offline calj737

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Re: Igniton / Coil recommendation for CB550
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2015, 04:44:10 am »
Off you go again, Delta. Comparing your tiny little country and your riding environment with the rest of the world. Regrettably, many of us live a very large country and use our motorcycles for more than "touring". And that involved traffic and stop lights and idling. These are worlds apart different riding conditions. Pure and simple.

As for Honda and their choices of amperage output on a 40 year old bike, these bikes were manufactured when technology was still pretty nascent and on this country at least, our road density was far lower. So again, your contention that what was relevant then is still adequate now is under informed. Perhaps the population of the Netherlands hasn't really changed much in 4 decades, but here (in the center of the universe) it has. In fact, we've had more people immigrate into our country in the past decade than possibly live in the Nehterlands in total. So riding and culture is massively different.

Enough with the lectures please.
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Igniton / Coil recommendation for CB550
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2015, 05:59:02 am »
Will you both please go back to what I wrote in the first place? If I run a 39 year old bike with none of the wires exchanged, with 3 Ohm coils (a mistake) a 60 Watts halogen, the rest standard, apart from the Voxbell horns that draw almost 10 Amps and every time return with a better charged battery than I took of with, why can't others? That must have to do with the riding you do and my personal goal is to avoid traffic lights and city traffic as much as possible. Whenever I meet too many traffic lights, I simply switch the lights off whilst waiting.
But why so sensitive when somebody calls those running lights 'silly'? Can you or the US legislators produce any report that show those lights help improve safety? And if that would be the case, why is it the rest of the western world hasn't seen 'the light' of all the extra lights  on bikes, cars and trucks? My goodness, if you stand at the side of an US highway, it's one exuberant Christmas tree passing after the other, notably trucks. All those lights are not functional, come on, it's show-off. What improved safety a lot is: belts, helmets and roundabouts. And a good headlight ofcourse and that's not the miserable headlight US models came equipped with.
Much to my surprise I've come to the conclusion that contrary to what people in Europe think Americans don't travel that long distances at all, not on motorcycles. I've found enough proof of that in this forum and in my travels in the US. I've never calculated how many km we did on our Wing in 1989, but it must have been way over 10K. We learned that the average American worker has two weeks vacation only, where in our tiny country you start with four weeks. Every time somebody in this forum announces he'll do a similar trip we did, he is wished well and receives lots of advice of what to bring, etc, etc. Seriously, come on!
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 07:20:53 am by Deltarider »
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Igniton / Coil recommendation for CB550
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2015, 09:26:08 pm »
Whenever I meet too many traffic lights, I simply switch the lights off whilst waiting.
Delta: here in the USA, this will net you a traffic ticket in 39 States. They require that AT LEAST the headlight be ON at all times the bike is on the road. The running front lights were mandated in here 1974 here by the DOT, well after Honda had designed the 550 and 350F, both of which then suffer low-battery issues due to our traffic situations.

Examples: I live in a sparsely-populated Western US area, and on my commute to work on my 750 I run in 20-30 MPH traffic for 15 miles, followed by 15 more miles at 80-90 MPH, so my battery is usually fine: when I lived in an Eastern State, my 500 suffered low-battery unless I could ride at least 10 miles of hiway-speed during any given ride. For those of us here who live, say, east of the Mississippi River, riding at high RPM on a regular basis would require 1st and 2nd gear only, all day long(!), not a good way to ride these older bikes.
;)
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Offline alacrity

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Re: Igniton / Coil recommendation for CB550
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2015, 02:59:40 pm »
Besides employing Hondaman's genius transistorized ignition, I have swapped all bulbs out for LED, and am running a shortie lithium battery.

I think if i could find an affordable LED headlight I liked that would be mostly/sorta street legal, I could run my gerbings electric apparel and ride when it's near freezing.   (On a cb550'wiyh stock stator.VR, rectifier).
I recently restored and sold a 77 cb750f, and am nearly finished with a (former basket case) cb750k5.  This is a place to share, learn and enjoy.  I am grateful to and for 99+% of this site's membership.