Author Topic: Because I love debate... and I am bored  (Read 11164 times)

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Offline ofreen

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #125 on: November 03, 2006, 05:22:58 pm »
Also IMHO, science is the same damn thing.  Who's to say that our great scientific discoveries aren't just a bunch of bull#$%*?  Who can prove otherwise? 

Well, because of science, instead of dining on grubs under your log, you are posting stuff on an Internet site.  Rather than science being bull#$%*, it instead makes bull#$%* possible.
Greg
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Offline ic455

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #126 on: November 03, 2006, 05:43:06 pm »
Also IMHO, science is the same damn thing.  Who's to say that our great scientific discoveries aren't just a bunch of bull#$%*?  Who can prove otherwise? 

Well, because of science, instead of dining on grubs under your log, you are posting stuff on an Internet site.  Rather than science being bull#$%*, it instead makes bull#$%* possible.

But that's not the point.  Scientific advancement has done many great things, but the difference in eating grubs or surfing the net has nothing to do with Science's view of life, or the creation thereof.  My post was made in the context of this thread, nothing else.  Science itself is not bull#$%*, some of the "discoveries" are a bit too convenient for me. 

Let me clarify:  Who's to say that the Scientific explanation of evolution,life,death, etc. isn't just bull#$%*?
We all know that the internet is real........isn't it?

later, coppertop ;)  (Matrix)

Offline ofreen

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #127 on: November 03, 2006, 06:59:30 pm »
IMHO, Religion is something made up by folks a long time ago to justify the human race.  Also IMHO, science is the same damn thing.  Who's to say that our great scientific discoveries aren't just a bunch of bull#$%*?  Who can prove otherwise? 

OK, I included more of your quote.   'Science' is a highly abstract term - means a lot of different things to different people.  Here's a Webster's definition - "systematized knowledge derived from observation, study, and experimentation carried on in order to determinethe nature or principles of what is being studied."  Then there is 'scientific' - "based on, using, or in accordance with the principles and methods of science: systematic and exact, designating the method of research in which a hypothesis, formulated after systematic, objective collection of data, is tested empirically."

A lot of what people call 'science' is not science at all based on the definitions above.  Rigorous scientific study is highly effective in finding answers.  Our technological culture is proof of that.  But a lot of what some people call 'science' is nothing more than the systematic ignoring of data that does not fit their desired hypothesis.  To damn all (real) science as bull#$%* because of the existence of bogus 'science' (because of political considerations, or whatever) is counterproductive and false to facts.  That was my point.
Greg
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Offline ic455

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #128 on: November 03, 2006, 08:30:05 pm »
I'm having trouble putting this into words, I know that a term exists for my thought, maybe not Philosophy but surely something similar.  Science is a human invention.  Therefore it may only be valid in the realm of human thought. 
In the context of creation vs. evolution, with evolution being part of a scientific explanation, how can there be any certainty as to whether we evolved from something else or just appeared? 
I think that evolution should be taught in schools, because it is (was) part of basic Biology.  Why?  Because right or wrong, it is another view of the world, and everyone should have a chance to analyze it.  Perhaps we'll have another Stephen Hawking or Albert Einstein emerge and refute the entire question of creation vs. evolution with something totally different(and not the spaghetti monster). 

If you've ever seen a cartoon or a movie that shows our planet and keeps zooming out until you see that our galaxy is inside a drop of dew on a blade of grass in some other world, then you can kinda see where I'm going with this.  We are far advanced, but really don't know anything about our own origins or the nature of our existence.

Offline ofreen

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #129 on: November 03, 2006, 08:49:35 pm »
Science is a human invention. 

A better way to say it may be to refer to science as a human endeavor.  It may well be that humans will never be able to wrap its collective mind around all the vagaries of the universe.  I think it is probable that we won't, but who knows?  We can only guess at the potential of the mind and brain.  So we can only stay curious and inquisitive, like that cat checking out the fan in the video on one of the other posts.

By the way, don't take my discussion of science as a defense of the theory of evolution.
Greg
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Offline ic455

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #130 on: November 03, 2006, 08:54:38 pm »
Science is a human invention. 

A better way to say it may be to refer to science as a human endeavor.  It may well be that humans will never be able to wrap its collective mind around all the vagaries of the universe.  I think it is probable that we won't, but who knows?  We can only guess at the potential of the mind and brain.  So we can only stay curious and inquisitive, like that cat checking out the fan in the video on one of the other posts.

By the way, don't take my discussion of science as a defense of the theory of evolution.

No, I didn't.  I am not trying to defend one or the other, either.  Just seems like there is a bigger picture that we've been missing for hundreds, or maybe thousands of years........

I'd still say 'invention', because without us, there is no such thing as science ;D

Offline cafehonda

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #131 on: November 04, 2006, 09:55:49 am »
There seems to be a lot of discussion here based on the idea that science is somehow held as infallable. To me, this has usually been the position taken by someone for whom the available explanation is unsatisfying (please note I did not say unsatisfactory, quite a different thing) or excessively complex and difficult to understand. I have found many people in this world who say "There's got to be something else" in a quest to give meaning to their existence. They make up things to validate the supernatural basis of their wonderment. Extra sensory perception, ghosts and alien contact are among the the things people point to in order to suggest that there is so much we don't know about that surely we must accept explanations of the world that live outside of our ability to research, experiment and document. The problem with that is one of inconsistent logic. I really doubt that many of us would undergo a medical procedure based on the doctors willingness to "believe" that something will work without a peer reviewed procedure in place, without some evidence to suggest that the doctors statements are valid. Yet many of us are willing to accept all sorts of bizare explanations for the unknown elements of our existence based on how it makes us feel, rather than how well proven the statements are. Science,  in its very nature, is incorrect much of the time. However, it is the nature of this ability to look at itself, determine when a statement is inaccurate, develop a new model and offer it up to scrutiny that provides science, or more accurately deductive reasoning, with a superior position in the hierarchy of explanations of what truly is out there. Faith, by it's very nature , asks one to believe in spite of significant evidence to the contrary. I for one do not look at the fallability of science or the scientific process as proof of some greater alternate explanation.
 By the way, we don't make up atoms, we are made up of atoms. They exist with or without our knowledge. And, I must say, this certainly has been an interesting discussion, without much of the usual back biting. Good will to all.
Anger is an energy. May the road rise with you.
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Offline andy750

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #132 on: November 04, 2006, 02:13:33 pm »

"I'd still say 'invention', because without us, there is no such thing as science "

Science has only been around for a relatively short time - ~500 years. Before this it was considered Philiosophy (or Astronomy or Mathematics etc)...but modern science really started with Copernicus (1473 - 1543) who showed with scientific observation (which was opposed at the time by the Church  ;)) that the sun and not the earth was the center of the Universe. This was huge at the time! It wasnt as though anything new was created but rather it was re-interpreted through scientific reasoning and logic. Then there was Galileo (1564 - 1642) who is considered one of the founders of modern natural sciences. Why? Becuase he broke away from the Church and used scientific reasoning and logic to interpret the world around him rather than accept the religious view. Again he wasnt creating anything new but simply intrepreting the natural world in a diferent way - and a way that made sense to people then and still does today. Science has progressed from Philosophy to Natural Philosophy (the likes of Issac Newton (1642 - 1727) who would conduct experiments in the kitchen of Kings college, Cambridge)) to modern natural sicence as we know it today.

Of course the term "modern science" is just that...there has always been oberservation of the world around us and then the application of reasoning (or not) to explain these observations. Modern science as others have described, made the process more rigourous, applying logic and reasoning to these observations, making hyothesis based on these findings and then making new hypothesis based on the inital ones....always tweaking and changing as new facts are presented. Science is not stuck in One place but rather it is continually changing and adapting as new findings are made and new hypothesis formed.

To say therefore that there is no such thing as science is really missing the point (in my opinion). Invention is not the same as science. Invention is creating new ways to do something, be it creating two wheels and a frame and calling it a bicycle - better than walking and cleaner than riding a horse. Or inventing a combustion engine etc etc....all these "inventions" are based on scientific principles. How else would the combusiton engine work or how could it become better without scientific oberservation? Is not by chance  ;)

cheers
Andy





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Offline ic455

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #133 on: November 05, 2006, 08:41:34 pm »
Without the human race, there would be no science, no engines, no bicycles.  Look at the jungles and deserts where animals are left to their own devices:  see any bikes?  everything in this thread is a product of the human mind.  Neanderthal man had a minimal amount of intelligence which allowed him to hunt/gather, wear fur to stay warm, or whatever they did without TV. 

The point that I've been trying to convey is that if we, as a species, dropped off the face of the Earth right now, then science and religion no longer exist.  Lions and Antelope don't have theological discussions. 

Even more bluntly:  Nothing matters unless humans say it does.

Incidently, this week's South Park made mention of the evolution vs. creation argument, with a nice stab at the "spaghetti monster" theory. ;D

Offline Rsnip988

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #134 on: November 06, 2006, 10:26:19 pm »
Blah

RKS
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Offline ic455

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #135 on: November 06, 2006, 10:31:22 pm »
Blah

RKS

Well, the booze hound returns! ;D

Offline Rsnip988

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #136 on: November 06, 2006, 10:35:15 pm »
Booze hound my ass, i was busy out of town all weekend, I didnt sleep from Thursday night @9pm when i woke up for work until Sat night @7pm I was completely exhausted, and slept like a brick gor ahout 14h

glad to be back though

RKS
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Offline ic455

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #137 on: November 06, 2006, 10:36:44 pm »
Booze hound my ass, i was busy out of town all weekend, I didnt sleep from Thursday night @9pm when i woke up for work until Sat night @7pm I was completely exhausted, and slept like a brick gor ahout 14h

glad to be back though

RKS

that sounds like a good bender, not work ;D

 been lonely, nobody to stalk ;)

Offline Rsnip988

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #138 on: November 06, 2006, 10:42:13 pm »
aaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwW

I can feel the love, group hug again with Tim taylor grunting?


NAh\


rks
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Offline ic455

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #139 on: November 06, 2006, 10:45:08 pm »
aaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwW

I can feel the love, group hug again with Tim taylor grunting?


NAh\


rks

there you go wanting to hug men and grunt......and you said I was gay

Offline Rsnip988

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #140 on: November 06, 2006, 10:59:06 pm »
aparrantly some fruit told me that its only gay if kissing is involved, so i dont think that wualifies


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Offline ic455

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #141 on: November 09, 2006, 12:09:06 am »
aparrantly some fruit told me that its only gay if kissing is involved, so i dont think that wualifies


RKS

OK, ya got me there.  Just please don't wualify me!  It sounds unpleasant! ;D

Offline Rsnip988

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #142 on: November 09, 2006, 10:13:28 pm »
qualifies , better now?



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Offline ic455

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #143 on: November 10, 2006, 05:38:03 pm »
qualifies , better now?



RKS

still not quite pleasant.... :P

Offline hondachopproject

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #144 on: November 11, 2006, 04:08:22 pm »
I believe in Creation, because I believe/trust in word of The GOD of the "Old Testament" or Torah, who created all things from nothing---- ex nihilo (lt. "out of nothing.")

I would NOT expect anyone else to accept this belief who didn't first believe in the Creator GOD of the bible. It would be an useless endless debate.

The best that can be done by "believers" is to rationally share, without argument, the reasons biblicaly and scientific as to why we belive in a Creator GOD and then leave it up to the non believer to fight it out with GOD (whether they except that he exists in him or not)-- it will all be answered in the end anyways ;)
92 HERITAGE

Offline cafehonda

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #145 on: November 12, 2006, 05:53:41 pm »
Hello...anybody there? I'm at the end and I don't see anything... ;)
Anger is an energy. May the road rise with you.
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Offline ic455

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #146 on: November 12, 2006, 09:08:38 pm »
Hello...anybody there? I'm at the end and I don't see anything... ;)


end......END????  This is the beginning, my dear sir........wait, you didn't eat the cookies did you?  Oh, man, here comes that stupid white rabbit.

Offline GeoffT

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #147 on: November 13, 2006, 12:16:24 pm »
Sorry, I'm lost now. Is this the interesting 'debate' thread or 'the shameless post' thread?
Either way i got another post score  ;D

Offline ic455

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #148 on: November 13, 2006, 04:12:29 pm »
Sorry, I'm lost now. Is this the interesting 'debate' thread or 'the shameless post' thread?
Either way i got another post score  ;D

Started out as the former, and inevitably became the latter.

Offline Rsnip988

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Re: Because I love debate... and I am bored
« Reply #149 on: November 19, 2006, 11:22:16 am »
Ta da another debate, debate thread vs the shameless boost thread


RKS
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