Author Topic: First high performance rebuild  (Read 2193 times)

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Offline Achilles_333

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First high performance rebuild
« on: May 03, 2016, 09:24:51 pm »
Hello all, I have a '78 cb750  k . At the moment, I am having some engine compression problems . The cylinders need to bored out as I was stupid and let the engine run out of oil. Yea, feel free to harp on me. Anyway, I've always wanted to upgrade my bike to add more power and acceleration and thought that this would be a great opportunity to get into the engine and upgrade it , since i need to go in there anyway. Also, I bought the bike without an odometer , so I am not sure what mile it is at (I've  considered just replacing everything in the engine to set the "mileage" back to 0)This would be my first time ripping an engine apart. I was looking at some 900cc big bore kits from cycle X . One thing in life that I have learned is that for every action there is a reaction.  If I were to get a big bore it , would it require anything else to supplement the added horse power ? Cranks,cams, valves etc etc? Also,  if I got all required parts and assembled, how would I go about tuning? I would assume that the added horse power would change the specs for tuning since stock is much different that high performance.

Thanks

PS: With that said, since this is my first engine rebuild, feel free to tell me I am way in over my head as far as upgrading.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 09:30:48 pm by Achilles_333 »

Offline Achilles_333

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Re: First high performance rebuild
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2016, 09:26:37 pm »
Also, if I were to have different tuning specs, where would I find this information to tune properly or at the least ascertain what would be correct specifications?

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: First high performance rebuild
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2016, 10:26:17 pm »
I don't know if you necessarily need to go up to a 900+cc overbore. 

You can squeeze plenty of performance out of an 836cc Wiseco high-compression piston kit, good port job, cam and up-graded carburetors.  That will leave you room if you need to rebuild again to over-bore to a 915 cc kit.

You will spend plenty just with these mods, along with heavy duty cylinder studs, seals, gaskets, etc.

You can still use the factory service manual for torque specs and tolerances.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline Achilles_333

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Re: First high performance rebuild
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2016, 10:43:53 pm »
Thanks, I was looking at the 836cc and was deciding between that and the 900cc. I've been told the same about the 836 and will take everyone's advice on it. I was just thinking about the future. As for the cam , what should I look for in shopping? Also, If I were to get new carbs, how would I go about tuning them. I would assume that the factory 1 turn out for the air screw wouldn't apply.

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: First high performance rebuild
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2016, 01:33:21 am »
You need to do some reading Achilles, sounds like you are new to all this, there's a lot to learn and there is a ton of awesome information on this site, some brilliant engine builders too. Do tons of research before spending a dime...
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline PeWe

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Re: First high performance rebuild
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2016, 01:41:52 am »
Search in this forum is not that good. Search with Google like: SOHC forums + .....
Easier with 836 when you can bore your original cylinder. Less need of better rods too.
The 900-"915" kits with tapered sleeves that does not need case bore according to the spec is not correct. My K6 case needed a lot of grinding to make space with clearance for the 70mm OD sleeves.
836 kit from JE or Wiseco or APE. 
The cheap 836 kit has no room for high lifting cams when pistons are overdimensioned OEM style

The head need to be ported, add 33.5 inlet valves at the same time.
Cam DP295 or similar. This has good response from low rpm. I used a RC 295 copy last summer with 836.
Check with forum member MRieck about everything, work included
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: First high performance rebuild
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2016, 11:54:14 am »
You need to do some reading Achilles, sounds like you are new to all this, there's a lot to learn and there is a ton of awesome information on this site, some brilliant engine builders too. Do tons of research before spending a dime...

Mick is right.  Do your homework.  You can get in deep quickly with an engine build.  A good starting point is what you want this motor/bike to do, how you are going to ride it and how many miles you are going to put on it. 

You can easily throw a lot of money at a CB750 engine rebuild.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline Mitchell

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Re: First high performance rebuild
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2016, 01:50:04 pm »
I'm going to suggest you look up homdaman and get his book on the cb750, it will help you alot.

Offline gschuld

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Re: First high performance rebuild
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2016, 03:18:59 pm »

 You can get in deep quickly with an engine build.

You can easily throw a lot of money at a CB750 engine rebuild.

I'll second that....right Mike! ;D

If you head down the road toward a fresh build with big power AND high quality in mind, it adds up fast(as it SHOULD).  Lots of upgrades are needed once you get up there in displacement/hipo parts.

Most would agree that a nicely done 836 motor is about the best bang for the buck out there, and plenty of fun.

Perhaps starting with an overall budget might be a good starting point.  You could plan on putting together the best motor you can within your budget.  If your dying to spend piles of cash, going for 100hp or so, we will be happy to help you spend it.... ;D.

George

Offline BPellerine

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Re: First high performance rebuild
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2016, 03:21:24 pm »
I don't know if you necessarily need to go up to a 900+cc overbore. 

You can squeeze plenty of performance out of an 836cc Wiseco high-compression piston kit, good port job, cam and up-graded carburetors.  That will leave you room if you need to rebuild again to over-bore to a 915 cc kit.

You will spend plenty just with these mods, along with heavy duty cylinder studs, seals, gaskets, etc.

You can still use the factory service manual for torque specs and tolerances.
not just an overbore to 900,915,requires bigger sleeves and boring block.
1978 CB 750K ard and webers
another anfob

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: First high performance rebuild
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2016, 04:42:59 pm »
And if you really want to go all out, buy a billet 1000cc block from Mike Rieck.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: First high performance rebuild
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2016, 05:33:22 am »
And if you really want to go all out, buy a billet 1000cc block from Mike Rieck.
Yep,  I resemble that remark! Work of art they are!.Bill
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Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
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1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
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Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: First high performance rebuild
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2016, 04:12:10 pm »
Those blocks are things of beauty.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: First high performance rebuild
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2016, 05:29:16 pm »
Those blocks are things of beauty.

Indeed    ;)
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline calj737

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Re: First high performance rebuild
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2016, 08:42:17 am »
Please don't misinterpret this, but, if this is your first "performance motor build" then undertaking the direction you're contemplating, may not be highly advisable. To achieve quality results requires knowledge, experience, and lots of specialized tools. There's no "book" for following a Hi-Po 750 build recipe. Some of the information is available, but lots of it is esoteric and buried within the deep recesses of the experienced folks. Meaning; its not documented.

Establish a budget. Locate and arrange a qualified engine builder. Accumulate the parts you know you want and will need, then rely upon them to assemble and assure its proper function. Tuning will best be handled on a dyno, backed by good advice from the myriad of folks on the HiPo forum. Whatever you seek, its probably been done (with mistakes, errors and lessons learned) before so you can avail yourself of their wisdom and avoid the pitfalls.

Clearancing parts to 0.000s is not something most people can do in their garage without ample micrometers and dial gauges, and other tools. You can certainly contract a number of reputable places to build you an engine complete, or subcontract aspects out (head to Mike Rieck, crank to APE, trans work to Fast...) and then have a local shop assemble to spec. Theres no shame in relying on professionals to do professional work. You get the enviable task of putting together a wish list of quality parts and features, they take the brunt of responsibility for accuracy.

If you remain steadfast in your desires, then start with a less ambitious project to cut your teeth and limit your cost/damage would be my parting advice.

Either way, I hope to see a top shelf engine in your project soon!!!  :D
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline Big Jay

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Re: First high performance rebuild
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2016, 09:55:02 pm »
Spend some time here;   http://cbrzone.com/sohc.html