Author Topic: Dyna S vs. Dyna III  (Read 5869 times)

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jsaab2748

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Dyna S vs. Dyna III
« on: November 16, 2006, 07:13:55 PM »
Just wondering the differences between the two, and are there any advantages one has
over the other. Also, is the Dyna III still made for the SOHC 4? Or has it been discontinued?
Thanks jim

Offline MRieck

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Re: Dyna S vs. Dyna III
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2006, 08:02:45 PM »
The Dyna 3 is long..long gone.
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Re: Dyna S vs. Dyna III
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2006, 08:14:22 PM »
The Dyna S just replaced the points with a solid-state trigger set. It gave long-lasting tuneups, popular with tourers. The coli voltage didn't seem any better, probably wasn't.

The Dyna III would run 3 ohm coils, which Dyna (and others) made. These will make more spark voltage than the stock coils, at the cost of higher currents and sometimes damaged wiring splices in the earlier "K-K2" model 750, using their recommended installation method. They will let the engine rev more easily than stock coils, too.

If you install a Dyna and higher-current coils, run a separate wire to feed them. The Honda splices heat up and, after all these years, could easily give you troubles.

I have the points replacement plate for a Dyna III and the coils, but the Dyna III box is dead. I've been looking for a used replacement for some time, with no luck. Maybe I'll just build one this winter, if we get enough snow...   ::)
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline MRieck

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Re: Dyna S vs. Dyna III
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2006, 04:56:25 AM »
The Dyna S just replaced the points with a solid-state trigger set. It gave long-lasting tuneups, popular with tourers. The coli voltage didn't seem any better, probably wasn't.

The Dyna III would run 3 ohm coils, which Dyna (and others) made. These will make more spark voltage than the stock coils, at the cost of higher currents and sometimes damaged wiring splices in the earlier "K-K2" model 750, using their recommended installation method. They will let the engine rev more easily than stock coils, too.

If you install a Dyna and higher-current coils, run a separate wire to feed them. The Honda splices heat up and, after all these years, could easily give you troubles.

I have the points replacement plate for a Dyna III and the coils, but the Dyna III box is dead. I've been looking for a used replacement for some time, with no luck. Maybe I'll just build one this winter, if we get enough snow...   ::)
I think I have a box for the III. I'll look.
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline SD750F

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Re: Dyna S vs. Dyna III. (Wire issues add on)
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2006, 08:47:34 AM »
Of course the wires in the ignition circuit have a tendency to get warm, hot, or even fail because of the way the ignition works. So I wanted to provide some input and considerations when one re-designs the ignition system and re-wires their bike...

Okay, here I go... Take a look at what is going on. When the park plugs are not required to fire, the points are closed. This provides a high direct current flow across the primary coil that is rated normally let’s say at 3 ohms. When you have a 14.5 Volt potential on a good electrical system with a working regulator that is a current flow of 4.8 amps! A good safety rating for this amount of current is 2X the amperage. So you would need a minimum wire gauge of 20AWG. Okay that sounds small, but consider the next step of the process…

The magic starts when the points are opened! Yes that is when the sparks fly. The current that was flowing earlier in the primary winding of the ignition coil produced a large magnetic field. This is amplified by using a ferrous metal core in the coil. When the magnetic field collapses, it will produce a high voltage spike on the primary side between 200 to 400 Volts! Now the condenser comes into play. The High Voltage on the primary, the collapsing field, and the capacitance of the condenser will oscillate at around 15,000 times a second or 15 kilo Hertz (15kHz) until the magnetic field is near fully collapsed in around 20 thousands of a second or 20ms. At this time the high voltage on the primary is multiplied by the ratio of the secondary to the primary windings. Typically this is around 100 to 1 or 100:1. So a reading of 200 to 400 Volts on the primary will produce 20,000 to 40,000 Volts on the secondary coil, which is driving in our case 2 spark plugs with two secondary windings in the coil. If the condenser is not working right, the oscillation will not be created with the LC (inductive/capacitive) circuit the coil will produce a lower frequency oscillation at around 2.5kHz and a much weaker spark that is retarded in time, yes when the field collapses around 20ms after the points are opened.

So lets consider an active coil producing 400 Volts across the primary side. Any bad connection with resistance will produce heat. And the primary side will consume 133 amps for 20ms. Now remember this is actually an alternating current so the true root-mean-square equivalent is not as great as the 133 amps… The worst case is 57 amps pulsed. So really you need with a good safety factor of 2X, a 10AWG wire feeding the ignition circuit. Note you can get by with a 12AWG wire if you use kapton or silicone jacket instead of the standard PVC. But here is another way of looking at this issue. Because my ratings and calculations used the worst case senario, you can say that the ignition wire gauge should be 2X the rating of a slow blow fuse. My bike uses a 15A for the Battery main line so a 30A rated wire will be good enough. So a 14AWG PVC wire will carry 33 amps and the same gauge with kapton or silicone will carry 45 amps.

Scott
« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 09:39:13 AM by SD750F »

Offline MRieck

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Re: Dyna S vs. Dyna III
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2006, 11:54:16 AM »
 Does that mean all connections should be soldered too? ;)
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Offline dusterdude

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Re: Dyna S vs. Dyna III
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2006, 12:31:34 PM »
scott,you`re not two tired reincarnated are you? ;D
mark
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Re: Dyna S vs. Dyna III
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2006, 01:01:10 PM »
Scott:
Good explanation of the kettering ignition system. I think you're confused about the condensor though. There is no AC oscillation between the coil and condensor/capacitor, the DC pulse can be considered a single cyle of HF AC but that's misleading, the RC time constant of the coil primary resistance and the capacitor can be interpreted as an AC frequency or a DC decay time. The condensor acts as a low resistance "short" across the points for a few microseconds after the points open while it charges up to the back EMF voltage from the collapsing magnetic field. This allows the points to open enough that the back EMF can not arc across the points gap. Without the capacitor, the voltage rises almost instantaneously to that 300V or more while the gap is still microscopic: this combination will always arc. That doesn't do any harm to the spark at the plug but the points themselves will be destroyed in short order.

Offline SD750F

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Re: Dyna S vs. Dyna III, Soldered Connections...
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2006, 01:11:29 PM »
Well that is a very good question. One that has been discussed outside of this forum many times by electrical engineers, cable harness designers, and others among my industry, airplane avionics engineers for wiring techniques and practices.

As far as current, any technique that insures the cross section of the connection will increase the current handling capacity. That is a given. But one has to ensure that you are not adding a resistor in the process. Some poor solders do not have a very good electrical conductance. You want to use one with 96.5% Sn (Tin), 3.0% Ag (Silver), and 0.5% Cu (Copper). Note that there is no lead!? This is the same formula that is use in the automotive industry as well as aerospace. And this has an excellent conductance (Silver the best and Copper is not too bad either. Gold is between Silver and Copper but is liked in high tech because it does not corrode or oxidize). The tin component reduces the melting temperature of the solder low enough that most of us can produce using a good soldering iron. I recommend a tip temperature of 600°F for fine to medium wire gauges, and 700°F for heavier wires. Do not use a higher temperature than 700 degrees! A larger physical head will be required to heat up battery and starter cables. Try not to soak or delay the connection before applying the solder too long. This will do two things. First the extra time exposed to the high temperature can and may cause other damage to other components such as insulators, plastic parts, etc. And second the high temperature will accelerate the oxidation of the metals and that the flux in the solder may not overcome.

Now the debate is if the soldered joint reduces the mechanical strength. Some say that the solder will weaken the wire at the joint by reducing the natural flexing and cause small fractures in the wire strands. Others say that is strengthens the joint. I say, solder, but only after the joint is mechanically crimped. And only apply a small amount of solder just to fill the surface area between the wire and the connector's interface with the wire. Make sure that not much solder “wicks” up into the wire strands and that it interferes with any mechanical pins or keys on the connector. Tie off or bound your cable/connectors to prevent any vibrations or movement at the interface, and where possible heat shrink the pin/wire connection if it does not cause a problem with a connector. I like using automotive connectors that have built in water barriers (silicone seals) that fit around the wire and provide a splashguard. And Gold plated pins and connectors…

Scott
« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 01:38:34 PM by SD750F »

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Re: Dyna S vs. Dyna III DC Decay vs AC Resonance
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2006, 01:23:01 PM »
You are right when considering the damage of an AC pulse on the spark plug and the points. But research that I have reviewed, indicate the DC decay is really a decay of a frequency resonance determined by the complex and variable LRC circuit. The ignition coil is a series resistor/inductor with values of both in reactance. With a small capacitance in parallel. The condenser is a resistor in series with a capacitor. Some versions have only leakage resistance, while other actually have a series resistor. The high frequency oscilloscope images I have seen of the collapsing field indicates this resonance during and integral of the DC decay... Time to get out the circuit simulator and plot some curves vs. time... What fun!   :D

Scott

jsaab2748

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Re: Dyna S vs. Dyna III
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2006, 06:10:51 PM »
Thanks for the info guys. Very informative. Reason I asked is because there is/was a Dyna III on e bay (nos I think) in the cb 550 auctions
in the buy it now exclusive section, listed for 100.00, if anyone's interested. I think I'll stick to my plan of getting a Dyna S.

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Re: Dyna S vs. Dyna III, Soldered Connections...
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2006, 06:13:50 PM »
Well that is a very good question. One that has been discussed outside of this forum many times by electrical engineers, cable harness designers, and others among my industry, airplane avionics engineers for wiring techniques and practices.

As far as current, any technique that insures the cross section of the connection will increase the current handling capacity. That is a given. But one has to ensure that you are not adding a resistor in the process. Some poor solders do not have a very good electrical conductance. You want to use one with 96.5% Sn (Tin), 3.0% Ag (Silver), and 0.5% Cu (Copper). Note that there is no lead!? This is the same formula that is use in the automotive industry as well as aerospace. And this has an excellent conductance (Silver the best and Copper is not too bad either. Gold is between Silver and Copper but is liked in high tech because it does not corrode or oxidize). The tin component reduces the melting temperature of the solder low enough that most of us can produce using a good soldering iron. I recommend a tip temperature of 600°F for fine to medium wire gauges, and 700°F for heavier wires. Do not use a higher temperature than 700 degrees! A larger physical head will be required to heat up battery and starter cables. Try not to soak or delay the connection before applying the solder too long. This will do two things. First the extra time exposed to the high temperature can and may cause other damage to other components such as insulators, plastic parts, etc. And second the high temperature will accelerate the oxidation of the metals and that the flux in the solder may not overcome.

Now the debate is if the soldered joint reduces the mechanical strength. Some say that the solder will weaken the wire at the joint by reducing the natural flexing and cause small fractures in the wire strands. Others say that is strengthens the joint. I say, solder, but only after the joint is mechanically crimped. And only apply a small amount of solder just to fill the surface area between the wire and the connector's interface with the wire. Make sure that not much solder “wicks” up into the wire strands and that it interferes with any mechanical pins or keys on the connector. Tie off or bound your cable/connectors to prevent any vibrations or movement at the interface, and where possible heat shrink the pin/wire connection if it does not cause a problem with a connector. I like using automotive connectors that have built in water barriers (silicone seals) that fit around the wire and provide a splashguard. And Gold plated pins and connectors…

Scott

Excellent information...thanks!
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline billstron

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Re: Dyna S vs. Dyna III
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2006, 09:22:50 PM »
I think we have a Tesla incarnate :D  Unbelievable what you read on these boards.  Your analysis is very impressive. 

Offline 78 k550

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Re: Dyna S vs. Dyna III
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2006, 10:05:25 PM »
I have the points replacement plate for a Dyna III and the coils, but the Dyna III box is dead. I've been looking for a used replacement for some time, with no luck. Maybe I'll just build one this winter, if we get enough snow...   ::)

I have a used system III and not sure what part I need. While I was static timing it the test light would light up only on the 1-2. Then I ran it and it was only firing on 2 cylinders. I need to figure out if it is the plate or the box.

Paul
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Re: Dyna S vs. Dyna III
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2006, 10:19:34 PM »
He's pretty close to the truth, too!
In the mid-1970s I analyzed all of this and hand-built a few transistorized ignitions for the CB750. Mine had one (until someone stole it off my bike one nite at a motel  >:(  ) and my friend that I learned CB750 with at school got the other one.

The CB750K2 (and probably later ones as well) system draws 4.1 amps per coil, steady-state with new points and 13.6vDC battery voltage (not in the bike: see below). The open-point back EMF, measured at the points without a condensor, is just under 400v peak. With the 0.24uf stock condensor in place, it reaches a max of about 48v at the points' connection: this 10:1 PRV reduction is typical of Kettering system designs. Coil collapse without the condensor produces 5kV peak plug voltage in open air: with the condensor it reaches a little over 7kv in open air, with 2 plugs on the coil. The condensor lets the coil collapse faster. When the condensors get old, the capacitance drops: at about 0.18uf the points burn quickly, too.

The single black wire in these bikes that feeds both coils is approximately 23 AWG in cross-section. This limits the dual coils' available current, much like the resistance wire in Detroit's Kettering systems. It typically measures close to .25 ohms between the battery + terminal and the coil terminals where the bullet connectors plug in: those connectors are also quite high resistance. The result overall is about 6kv at the plugs at 3.6 amps coil current with fresh tuneup parts on a nice summer day, with good battery. That's the stock setup. After about 1000 miles, the coil current drop to about 3 amps, as measured with my trusty inline Borg-Warner racing ammeter. For reference, Honda required 7.5kv from a "good" coil in their testers, which ran them at 14vDC with a 4000 RPM simulated mechanical oscillator running the coil.

When the 3 ohm coils are added, the solder-spliced connections in the Honda harness that feeds the black wire to the coils can heat up and crystallize the solder, causing low voltage in many other places downstream. That's why those coils should have a separate feed wire from the key's circuit, or through a relay that is run off of the old coil V+ connection. I recommend using LED tailite and lower-wattage headlight (no more than 55w high beam) when running these coils, too, lest the system voltage suffer overall, and if you have a K3-K6, remove the front running light circuit from the turn signals. These coils will draw a little over 4 amps apiece, which is 25% higher than Honda's security blanket.

In a nutshell, that's the stock system's dynamics.

To make a transistorized unit that will run from the points: use a PNP transistor rated at 80Vceo with the highest Vbco you can find. Gain (Hfe) should be low. Use Honda's own condensors for suppression. Close the gap on the points to about .010" (you'll have to slot the points plate to get the timing in position at this gap). Add about 100-300 ohms inline base resistance to the points and bias to ground to suit the Hfe you have, tune the rise with capacitance you like (I think mine was 0.022uF) and locate the module on the rear fender, under the taillite, with appropriate heat sinks. Use larger (16 AWG) wire to feed the coils from this module, and have fun: when mine was stolen off my bike, the points had worn the blocks off so far that I almost couldn't get .012" gap back on them to finish my trip home. The faces were still a mirror finish at that point, and they probably had over 20,000 miles on them.

Toyota, from 1972 through 1980-something, had an "Igniter" module that assisted the points in their cars. These also work nicely on Yamahas, I have been told, by adding one junkyard unit per set of points to your bike. I suppose Hondas wouldn't object, but I've never tried one...    ::)
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

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Re: Dyna S vs. Dyna III
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2006, 10:20:28 PM »
The Dyna S just replaced the points with a solid-state trigger set. It gave long-lasting tuneups, popular with tourers. The coli voltage didn't seem any better, probably wasn't.

The Dyna III would run 3 ohm coils, which Dyna (and others) made. These will make more spark voltage than the stock coils, at the cost of higher currents and sometimes damaged wiring splices in the earlier "K-K2" model 750, using their recommended installation method. They will let the engine rev more easily than stock coils, too.

If you install a Dyna and higher-current coils, run a separate wire to feed them. The Honda splices heat up and, after all these years, could easily give you troubles.

I have the points replacement plate for a Dyna III and the coils, but the Dyna III box is dead. I've been looking for a used replacement for some time, with no luck. Maybe I'll just build one this winter, if we get enough snow...   ::)
I think I have a box for the III. I'll look.

Really? (drool...)
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline TomC

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Re: Dyna S vs. Dyna III
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2006, 08:41:44 AM »
Hi all you motorcycle EEs out there
     DWELL
     Does either of these Dyna ignitions adjust the dwell as needed, for rpm and/or load?
TomC in Ohio
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Re: Dyna S vs. Dyna III
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2006, 07:10:48 PM »
Hi all you motorcycle EEs out there
     DWELL
     Does either of these Dyna ignitions adjust the dwell as needed, for rpm and/or load?

They trigger OFF for just long enough to discharge the coil(s) 3 AC cycles, then go back ON to fully dwell the coils for max field. That's their big claim to fame: hot spark for the kind of system they are. The dwell ends up being about 20%-40% longer than stock, which is why they use a little more current, on average, than a stock setup.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline MRieck

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Re: Dyna S vs. Dyna III
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2006, 08:36:54 PM »
Hondaman
 I've looked..and looked......and looked. No 3 box. i remember sending one to a board member named Chung(for free) who really didn't use it. Find him, tell him I said to give it to you. He posted only 2 weeks ago.
  Mike
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

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Re: Dyna S vs. Dyna III
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2006, 08:54:42 PM »
Thanks, Mike: I'll try to find him.

I've decided to also build some points-assisting transistorized units, too, just for nostalgia's sake: today it can be done with just 3 parts!
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).