Author Topic: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer  (Read 175353 times)

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Offline gschuld

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer - Post-Barber carnage!!
« Reply #1000 on: October 17, 2019, 10:51:17 AM »
Yes that is a bummer.  And you were 98% done for the year with very little trouble😏

Let’s hope for damage limited to the obvious.

George

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer - Post-Barber carnage!!
« Reply #1001 on: October 17, 2019, 11:26:31 AM »
Well you sounded great on SATURDAY...….. plan on finding extensive carnage ie $$$. Good luck.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer - Post-Barber carnage!!
« Reply #1002 on: October 17, 2019, 11:53:55 AM »
Sorry to see that its a pretty big kaboom...
we are all eagerly waiting for that striptease show were all will be revealed :)

in these postmortems, not always easy to determine cause and effect,

recently had a piston in a DR350 loose two little chunks of crown/ring land, exposing the top ring to combustion and causing a light seize but still got home. have no idea how the two pieces got out without causing any damage...

new piston is in, bike runs great but still does my head not knowing why it happened.
check the valve relief area, it can be weak, sometimes can trigger a crack and then all goes belly up


« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 11:55:59 AM by turboguzzi »

Offline Rocketman

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer - Post-Barber carnage!!
« Reply #1003 on: October 17, 2019, 07:44:28 PM »
Oh man!  That stinks!  Hope you find some good news when you tear it down.

Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer - Post-Barber carnage!!
« Reply #1004 on: October 19, 2019, 05:50:12 AM »
Note that for the lash-cap to come off, the valve-to-rocker clearance has to be very wide..............is the collet-keeper still in place?
Dennis in Wisconsin
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Offline slikwilli420

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer - Post-Barber carnage!!
« Reply #1005 on: October 19, 2019, 09:35:54 AM »
Note that for the lash-cap to come off, the valve-to-rocker clearance has to be very wide..............is the collet-keeper still in place?

Keepers in place but with the valve bent the spring is partially compressed increasing the lash allowing the cap to come out. More pictures and info once I'm back at my computer.
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
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AHRMA CB750 Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158461.0.html
AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
'76F CB750 Patina Redemption: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174871.0.html

Offline MRieck

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer - Little Tally
« Reply #1006 on: October 19, 2019, 10:18:25 AM »
Thanks guys! Im really looking forward to the new race surface and all the fun Barber has to offer.

Yes......good luck at Barber.
Thanks Mike. The head will be coming your way for a look over just to make sure its good for another couple years of racing duty. Hopefully you can pencil me in during the offseason.
I look forward to it. ;)
Gonna have to rethink that response. ???
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Offline gschuld

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer - Little Tally
« Reply #1007 on: October 19, 2019, 11:10:56 AM »
Thanks guys! Im really looking forward to the new race surface and all the fun Barber has to offer.

Yes......good luck at Barber.
Thanks Mike. The head will be coming your way for a look over just to make sure its good for another couple years of racing duty. Hopefully you can pencil me in during the offseason.
I look forward to it. ;)
Gonna have to rethink that response. ???

😂

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer - Post-Barber carnage!!
« Reply #1008 on: October 19, 2019, 01:25:15 PM »
Mike, you think the head may be a big paperweight? I hope not...
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer - Post-Barber carnage!!
« Reply #1009 on: October 21, 2019, 06:49:17 AM »
Well, as it turns out, the damage is extensive and severe. I need to have the head assessed by Mike but it may not be worth saving if the cost to do so is the same or higher than having a new head done. I am considering going back to stock valve stem diameters, but will discuss with Mike before making the decision. I really don't know the cause yet, but did find that the Cappellini cam chain tensioner was completely destroyed, and likely over a very long time. I have to wonder if a piece got somewhere on the top end and caused the exhaust valve to seize which then caused the holed piston, which then caused the broken intake valve. Not much more to say at this point, pictures are worth far more than 1000 words.







All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
Rickman CR Parts Kit Refresh: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,154837.0.html
AHRMA CB750 Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158461.0.html
AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
'76F CB750 Patina Redemption: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174871.0.html

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer - Post-Barber carnage!!
« Reply #1010 on: October 21, 2019, 07:51:20 AM »
sorry to see this... will not be easy to determine what caused what.... If i get it right, cam chain was not broken and i also dont see any valve-pisotn  touching signs on the  neighbor hole
So i think you can rule out the capellini idler blame
But surely the steel pieces missing from it must have been sloshing around in the oil...

try to look under a magnify glass in the break points of the valve stems. if it was a clean break, then they should be bright. if it was a crack there that developed over time, then you'd see an "darker" part  in the break area. im totally against thin stems. I measured marginal improvement in flow but surely weaker and with a rocker arm that puts side loads on it less well supported by the guide (less bearing area). Maybe acceptable in dohcs that push the valves straight, not in our sohcs.
Check your other valves for play in guide. might be that valve was already loose in it, hitting seat out of concentricity creating bending forces where you see the break in the stem.

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer - Post-Barber carnage!!
« Reply #1011 on: October 21, 2019, 08:00:53 AM »
sorry to see this... will not be easy to determine what caused what.... If i get it right, cam chain was not broken and i also dont see any valve-pisotn  touching signs on the  neighbor hole
So i think you can rule out the capellini idler blame
But surely the steel pieces missing from it must have been sloshing around in the oil...

try to look under a magnify glass in the break points of the valve stems. if it was a clean break, then they should be bright. if it was a crack there that developed over time, then you'd see an "darker" part  in the break area. im totally against thin stems. I measured marginal improvement in flow but surely weaker and with a rocker arm that puts side loads on it less well supported by the guide (less bearing area). Maybe acceptable in dohcs that push the valves straight, not in our sohcs.
Check your other valves for play in guide. might be that valve was already loose in it, hitting seat out of concentricity creating bending forces where you see the break in the stem.

The lack of favor of thinner stems keeps coming up with a number of racers in AHRMA talking about bikes eating 5mm stem valves and having to use stock diameter stems to combat this. The strength of a stock stem has to be significant compared to a 5mm unit, given the same material and manufacturing specs. Id gladly swap some flow for much higher reliability in this department. Its going to be tough making this right and preparing for next seasons run at a championship but I will do my best. When Mike gets the head he can check the other stems but I am definitely leaning toward stock stems in the oversize for the intake.
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
Rickman CR Parts Kit Refresh: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,154837.0.html
AHRMA CB750 Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158461.0.html
AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
'76F CB750 Patina Redemption: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174871.0.html

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer - Post-Barber carnage!!
« Reply #1012 on: October 21, 2019, 08:01:36 AM »
Just to let you know that stock diameter valve stems will break too  :o  ;)

I have a similar souvenir piston from March 1976 but the hole is a little larger. The head was also similar except on #2. This is what I expected to see when you showed those chunks.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer - Post-Barber carnage!!
« Reply #1013 on: October 21, 2019, 08:34:44 AM »
That combustion chamber is salvageable??
Figured it was toast...
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline bwaller

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer - Post-Barber carnage!!
« Reply #1014 on: October 21, 2019, 04:03:30 PM »
I remember talking to an irate Kurt Liebmann after his gorgeous CR750 had dropped another valve.....for the second time in as many weekends. 5mm stems.

Jerry is right and it does happen to larger stems, but man this is a hard pill to swallow. It'll be tough for Mike to make this call, things rattled around for a while there.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 12:35:26 PM by bwaller »

Offline StanLipert

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer - Post-Barber carnage!!
« Reply #1015 on: October 21, 2019, 07:19:27 PM »
Any signs of the valves heat seizing in a guide? I've had this happen with cast iron guides, cured with bronze guides.

R/D dual valve springs are prone to breaking from spring surge, beehive springs cures the surging.

What valve spring seat pressure? Too mush stress on the valves?

Just speculating.

Offline MRieck

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer - Post-Barber carnage!!
« Reply #1016 on: October 24, 2019, 05:26:42 AM »
Any signs of the valves heat seizing in a guide? I've had this happen with cast iron guides, cured with bronze guides.

R/D dual valve springs are prone to breaking from spring surge, beehive springs cures the surging.

What valve spring seat pressure? Too mush stress on the valves?

Just speculating.
Bronze guides used with the 5mm conversion kit. Dual springs used from conversion kit. Correct IH and seat pressure. Never had much luck with RD springs.
 I have seen the 5mm conversion kits used in TQ where the engines are routinely pinned and they have survived. I don't know if it was valve material failure, spring pressure loss or what....the head is on the way back to me.
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Offline slikwilli420

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer
« Reply #1017 on: December 03, 2019, 07:53:52 AM »
Lots of things in progress right now, with the engine and chassis.

Mike has the head as well as a virgin head from me. Im thinking of starting fresh. I have discussed going with oversized intakes and stock exhaust, both with the 6.5mm stems. To offset that added weight, I will go with beehive springs, Ti retainers and adjuster nuts, and do some lightening of the rockers themselves. I won't be revving to the moon so a little added valvetrain weight won't really compromise the package, but should add some reliability to the mix.

Everything below the head went off to Kenny at Cycle X. He line lapped the main bearing bore, replaced the #4 sleeve and decked the cylinder. I also have a crank with 4 new rods and 4 new pistons coming back. This break basically kicked off a full engine refresh. Upon more inspection of the cases, it seems that the machined surface on the upper case has worn to a limit that allows the crank more lateral play than it should. You can actually see aluminum smeared on the case from crank contact. I have a ton of hours into my cases so I am looking into getting them laser welded and then machined back to size.

Beyond the engine, I have begun going end to end and finishing all the little details that have been left. Simple things like changing the arrangement of the wheel spacers in the rear to allow me to take the caliper off as a whole unit, instead of removing it from the bracket first. It's amazing what you learn after you create something about how to do it more efficiently.

I also suffered another cracked crimp collar on my oil lines. I am using Russell lines, crimps and fittings so it stands to reason they should work fine together. Well the aluminum crimp collars appear to be getting brittle once crimped and are cracking. To fix that once and for all I source stainless steel crimps from the place that does my lines and will rebuild all 3 lines with new crimps and be done with it.

The oil tank needed some love as well in the form of some new welded -6AN fittings for the breather return and a drain plug. The drain is cool as hell, with a check valve that only opens when you insert the drain fitting. It also has a nice aluminum cap to keep crud out of there.

I have a new front brake rotor coming from Australia as the last one developed cracks between some of the holes that I had enlarged to reduce weight. I also noticed that the holes in the first one did not cover the entire swept area of the rotor so there was some grooving rather than even wear going on. I will fix that with a different drill pattern that will cover the whole swept area. It will also go onto a new one-piece carrier, rather than the flat carrier with spacers I was using before. At this point, its all about refining what is there as I am overall very happy with the package.

Roebling Road in late February is fast approaching so I need to keep pressure on everything. Fortunately I have some good time off coming up for the holidays.

2020 race season, here I come!

79 days...
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
Rickman CR Parts Kit Refresh: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,154837.0.html
AHRMA CB750 Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158461.0.html
AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
'76F CB750 Patina Redemption: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174871.0.html

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer
« Reply #1018 on: January 14, 2020, 07:30:55 AM »
More progress, with some pics this time!

Roebling is fast approaching and I have a ton of small things still in progress. The majority of the engine parts are at my place, save for some primary/cam chains and a cam chain tensioner. I also realized that I am out of middle shift forks for the trans, and need to source one before buttoning everything up. The trans is an all new pro-cut set from Kenny at Cycle X, so fingers crossed that with my more gentle use of the transmission through becoming a better racer, I won't have issues like I did before. The cases had the main bearings lapped, and will be fitted with new shells for the crank, along with new shells for the rods as well. More or less, the entire bottom end will be new or have been serviced and checked out since the boo-boo at Barber in October.

I started installing the primary chain tensioner system from Mirko as well. I am not sure if I am the only one racing with it or not, but certainly among the first few. The machining needed was simple enough, with my mill JUST big enough to handle the job. The upper tensioner needed minor trimming to fit into the upper case as the foot was touching one of the bosses for the cylinder stud, but was easily fixed. Taking the belt and suspenders approach, I safety wired the bolts as well as using some loctite, along with a light smear of Hondabond where it sits against the case.



The lower tensioner went in, again with slight trimming as the metal foot that has the bolt hole and pin was wide enough to touch a part of the casting in the lower case half, but went in quite easily.

New oil lines with stainless crimps are all done with new hoses. I should have done this item a long time ago, after splitting an aluminum collar 2 different times. The last one I noticed right before Barber as I was sitting in a chair just staring into the distance. The collar pulled off with my fingers so with 80psi of oil pressure, it could have been very bad. The stainless collars are far stronger, so that should be a done deal.



I also had a cracked front brake rotor after Barber. There were 6 or so cracks between the holes and it was time for a replacement. The cracked on was an RPE cast iron that had been drilled by them. I found that the cross drill pattern was lacking because the holes did not cover the entire swept area of the brake pad, leading to some pretty noticeable peaks and valleys in the rotor. My solution is interesting to say the least. I sourced another RPE rotor through George Schuld (thanks George!) as he was ordering some as well. I chose the non-drilled variety and after doing some reading online about the reasons rotors are drilled and decided to dimple the rotor instead. The dimple pattern covers the entire swept area of the brake pad and with smooth bottoms (round end mill) there wont be any places for cracks to propagate from. Its a bit of an experiment, but the vast majority of things I found online stated that drilled rotors today are more for looks than performance and that dimpled and slotted rotors perform to the same degree, without risk of crack formation. I likely wouldnt have had issues if I had 2 discs up front, but the stress that is put into that single rotor on a 360lb bike with a 220lb rider likely overdid it a bit. Time will tell. The rotor is out getting clear zinc plated now so it doesnt look so awful after a damp night in the paddock.



An observation from staring at this engine in pieces was that the main bearing bosses that hold the bolts (or in my case, studs and nuts) were really not flat at all, and in some cases had noticeable concavity to them. The simple solution was to index off of each hole and touch off with an end mill to get a nice flat, true surface for the nuts to rest on. In most cases, I only took about 0.007" or so off each boss to get a nice flat surface.



The last little thing is one that I have been thinking about all season, which serves no real practical purpose, but is really cool and will make people who know cb750's do a double take. I have no need for the tach drive on the valve cover any longer, so decided to get rid of it. I cut the left side out of one valve cover and grafted into the right of the one I am using. After some careful laser welding and nice fitment, I will even be able to keep the OHC logo and most of the small fins in the cover. When done, it will look like it was never there to begin with.





That's all for now, but plenty more to do as I get closer.

36 days...

All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
Rickman CR Parts Kit Refresh: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,154837.0.html
AHRMA CB750 Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158461.0.html
AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
'76F CB750 Patina Redemption: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174871.0.html

Offline 754

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer
« Reply #1019 on: January 14, 2020, 08:17:28 AM »
 Cam cover looks great,  you are leaving the lines and letters ?
 Sometimes we grind them off smooth, cuz we never forget it's an sohc 750..
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Offline MessnerMoto

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer
« Reply #1020 on: January 14, 2020, 11:46:38 AM »
Matt post some more pictures of installed tensioner or send pictures to me

...perfection as always in your work ;)

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer
« Reply #1021 on: January 14, 2020, 12:04:26 PM »
Cam cover looks great,  you are leaving the lines and letters ?
 Sometimes we grind them off smooth, cuz we never forget it's an sohc 750..

Frank, the innermost line will likely need to be removed but I may try to save it. I'll remove the line from the other side as well, but the OHC will still be there. I did one like this but smooth, this cam tower hold downs a couple years ago, still needs finishing but the same idea.

Matt post some more pictures of installed tensioner or send pictures to me

...perfection as always in your work ;)

Will do Mirko!
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
Rickman CR Parts Kit Refresh: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,154837.0.html
AHRMA CB750 Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158461.0.html
AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
'76F CB750 Patina Redemption: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174871.0.html

Offline MRieck

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer
« Reply #1022 on: January 14, 2020, 12:14:46 PM »
Cam cover looks great,  you are leaving the lines and letters ?
 Sometimes we grind them off smooth, cuz we never forget it's an sohc 750..

Frank, the innermost line will likely need to be removed but I may try to save it. I'll remove the line from the other side as well, but the OHC will still be there. I did one like this but smooth, this cam tower hold downs a couple years ago, still needs finishing but the same idea.

Matt post some more pictures of installed tensioner or send pictures to me

...perfection as always in your work ;)

Will do Mirko!
Matt.....went to assemble your over the weekend and found i was out of OEM guide seals. i have others but the OEM are the best. They will be here shortly. Check this video out...go to about 29 minutes to get real good info. 
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer
« Reply #1023 on: January 14, 2020, 12:21:01 PM »
Cam cover looks great,  you are leaving the lines and letters ?
 Sometimes we grind them off smooth, cuz we never forget it's an sohc 750..

Frank, the innermost line will likely need to be removed but I may try to save it. I'll remove the line from the other side as well, but the OHC will still be there. I did one like this but smooth, this cam tower hold downs a couple years ago, still needs finishing but the same idea.

Matt post some more pictures of installed tensioner or send pictures to me

...perfection as always in your work ;)

Will do Mirko!
Matt.....went to assemble your over the weekend and found i was out of OEM guide seals. i have others but the OEM are the best. They will be here shortly. Check this video out...go to about 29 minutes to get real good info. 

Mike, I see just a black box and when I click it, I get nothing.
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
Rickman CR Parts Kit Refresh: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,154837.0.html
AHRMA CB750 Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158461.0.html
AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
'76F CB750 Patina Redemption: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174871.0.html

Offline MRieck

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Sportsman 750 Racer
« Reply #1024 on: January 14, 2020, 12:45:58 PM »
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"