Author Topic: Rip Van Winkle; Waking up a K4 (Read 9615 times)

Beergineer · « **on:** November 20, 2016, 10:19:00 AM »

Some back story:
I bought this bike about 6 years ago in near running condition (I had gotten it to start, but never to run more than a few seconds). It has since moved with me from Central NY down to Pittsburgh, and out to the suburbs. It is time to get this K4 back on the road.

Goal: Make the bike run in a mostly stock manner.

You're welcome to suggest boring it out to 1000cc and swapping a gsxr front end, but that just isn't going to happen.

Last winter I disassembled everything in order to sandblast and powder coat most of the components. I also copied Gordon's bolt-in frame mod (Sorry and Thanks Gordon). So I've got the engine out with the following components PC'd: frame, fork lowers, triple trees, battery box, engine brackets, swing arm, chain guard, brake caliper pieces and brackets, and probably some other things that are wrapped in newspaper under the work bench.

Since I have the whole bike disassembled I'm going to need some help/suggestions on the best order to reassemble things. Please feel free to raise red flags and offer up the lessons you've learned the hard way (I'd prefer not to do the same).

Here is the current state of affairs:

Beergineer · « **Reply #1 on:** November 20, 2016, 10:50:10 AM »

I've taken the valve and side covers off to do a general inspection. I've got allen bolts ordered and will be buying a complete top end gasket kit, just in case. I don't want to go any further into the engine if it isn't warranted.

Are there any recommended measurements and PM to do in this state?

This link Shows the valve train turning and the cylinder compression:

b52bombardier1 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 20, 2016, 12:14:39 PM »

Did you run any compression checks back when it was assembled? In other words, what PSI did you see with the throttle held wide open and the engine vigorously cranking? That could strongly suggest your next course of action. At this point, I would get all cylinders measured for diameter, taper and out of round for a possible bore job. Don't buy anything until a truly competent machinist with calibrated measuring tools can give you advice.

How many miles on the bike?

I'd also probably measure the cam and other top end parts for wear.

Rick

Beergineer · « **Reply #3 on:** November 20, 2016, 12:33:57 PM »

Thanks for the response b52. I did not run any compression checks before disassembly, is there a decent 'how to' on setting up a bench test of these engines? I have all the electricals to make it crank.

However I have no reason to believe there is anything wrong with the engine. It has around 20,000 miles on it, and from the look and condition of the old gaskets I think I'm the first person to open this engine up. I have learned my lesson about fixing things that aren't broken, which is why I'm hesitant to undo the head nuts.

Worst case scenario: I reassemble the bike, the top end needs to be rebuilt, and I do it with the engine in the frame.

b52bombardier1 · « **Reply #4 on:** November 20, 2016, 03:13:41 PM »

I think somebody around here recently did a bench run thread. For a simple compression check, I'd simply apply power to the the starter with the carbs removed. After a nearly 40 year slumber, my cylinders were around 145 psi each - no rebuild required. I'd worry at around a hundred psi but it should at least run though it'll probably smoke.

Rick

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

Beergineer · « **Reply #5 on:** November 21, 2016, 04:49:27 PM »

Cal, there isn't any evidence of leaks and I don't believe I removed any evidence since I've owned the bike. Before I go torquing anything I'm going to do a compression check (Time to find out if I have the right spark plug adapter). If the compression is good, I won't touch anything. Speaking of 'good' compression, the manual says the spec is 170psi, B52 says that 145 was fine and that 100 is concerning. Are there any other opinions on acceptable compression values?

The internet told me that the compression can be checked by turning the crankshaft with a power drill & socket, and a co-worker tells me his dad routinely checks 4 cylinder (car) Honda motors by just turning them over with a ratchet. I'm going to try the ratchet method first just to see what I get, and then move onto the power drill if I don't hear any objections.

Beergineer · « **Reply #6 on:** November 22, 2016, 06:19:11 PM »

Turns out I don't have the right spark plug adapter. Looks like compression testing will have to wait until next week.

Beergineer · « **Reply #7 on:** November 30, 2016, 04:13:13 PM »

I borrowed the right adapter from a coworker. The drill method does work, however I found that I have no compression in Cylinder 1. After dinner I will leak test the cylinder with my makeshift leak tester (Compressor>regulator>compression test hose>conveniently sized screw>spark plug adapter). I'll let you guys know what I find.

Side note: while taking parts inventory it looks like I'll be having a nightmare with old rusty screws/nuts/washers. Does anybody have a good/inexpensive source for buying metric hardware online?

Beergineer · « **Reply #8 on:** November 30, 2016, 04:48:19 PM »

Thanks for the links. I already ordered stainless allen head screws for the engine, I figured if any of those phillips screws were coming out it wouldn't be worth trying to reuse them.

Beergineer · « **Reply #9 on:** November 30, 2016, 05:38:49 PM »

I know they're JIS. I found a good fitting screw bit and used my corded drill to remove them. I had about a 95% success rate, but still had to drill a few.

Leak testing showed that at TDC on cylinder one both the exhaust and intake valves were open. I checked the tappets and sure enough there was 0.000" of clearance. I set them quick to a piece of paper (~0.003"), repeated the compression test and the gauge read 150 psi.

I will borrow a set of feeler gauges from work tomorrow and properly set the clearance on all the tappets and see how close all the cylinders are to each other.

Beergineer · « **Reply #10 on:** December 01, 2016, 06:37:17 PM »

OK. Tappet clearances are set properly. Did another compression test and got the following results:

#1- 142 psi
#2- 144 psi
#3- 142 psi
#4- 140 psi

This was with an automotive gauge, which explains the lower than 'spec' numbers. They don't concern me, so I'm going to call the engine good to go. Unfortunately when I opened up the gasket kit I ordered I found the valve cover gasket was broken. So I'll need another one of those before I move forward.

RAFster122s · « **Reply #11 on:** December 01, 2016, 10:12:54 PM »

Hope the place that you bought the gasket set makes good on the gasket.
what brand did you buy?

grcamna2 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 02, 2016, 05:52:15 AM »

Have a look at your rubber cam chain tensioner rollers before you start it,the rubber gets rock hard on some of them over age and they begin chewing-up and leaving pieces inside your engine.

Beergineer · « **Reply #13 on:** December 07, 2016, 03:49:21 AM »

While I'm waiting on a new valve cover gasket I turned my attention to the wheels. You can see that side conversation here:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,162458.0.html

With a little luck I'll be able to re-use the spokes from the 17" rear, so I don't have to source new spokes. The next order of business should be to put the covers back on, fit a centerstand on the frame, re-install the engine, and get it into 'roller' status.

grcamna2 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 07, 2016, 08:01:35 AM »

Show us some pics

Stev-o · « **Reply #15 on:** December 07, 2016, 04:42:42 PM »

Quote from: Beergineer on November 30, 2016, 05:38:49 PM

I know they're JIS. I found a good fitting screw bit and used my corded drill to remove them. I had about a 95% success rate, but still had to drill a few.

I always use an impact driver and have 99% success rate. Plus I like using my big-ass hammer to bang the driver!

Restoration Fan · « **Reply #16 on:** December 10, 2016, 03:47:18 AM »

Quote from: Stev-o on December 07, 2016, 04:42:42 PM

Plus I like using my big-ass hammer to bang the driver!

Stev-o,
I don't think we're supposed to have conversations like that on this forum.

Beergineer · « **Reply #17 on:** December 11, 2016, 01:28:59 PM »

Sorry for the lack of updates, but my 'safe space' has been invaded the past two weekends by various out of town guests.

During that time I did receive a new valve cover gasket, a proper spoke wrench, tire spoons and rim savers. Spokes have been soaking in PB Blaster for a few days so the old tires will come off and the spokes/hubs/rimstrips will get a proper inspection.

Hopefully next update will be the engine all buttoned up and transferring rear brake and axle hardware from the stock 18" wheel to the 17" wheel.

Pictures will come once there is something worth seeing.

Beergineer · « **Reply #18 on:** December 11, 2016, 06:59:36 PM »

Good news: Clutch cover, valve cover, starter motor cover and points cover all installed with fresh gaskets and stainless Allen screws.

Bad news: I think the starter motor reduction gear is missing a shaft? Or does it just actually magically hang out in between the stator and motor gear?

Also the 17" wheel has a tubeless tire on it. I got it halfway off, but damn does it not want to go the rest of the way.

grcamna2 · « **Reply #19 on:** December 11, 2016, 07:31:44 PM »

That gear does need the support shaft,it wasn't in there?

Beergineer · « **Reply #20 on:** December 12, 2016, 05:19:25 AM »

Nope, when I pulled the stator cover off the gear fell out. It was a PITA to get the shim washer out from behind the stator gear.

Beergineer · « **Reply #21 on:** December 12, 2016, 11:05:44 AM »

After looking up the part it is pretty obvious that I didn't lose it by accident. Luckily I found a reduction gear from a '78 (I checked the fiche, the shaft is the same) for $8 shipped on ebay.

I'm still mighty curious about how this motor ran before, I know for a fact that the starter motor worked before I got to taking things apart.

seanbarney41 · « **Reply #22 on:** December 12, 2016, 02:37:34 PM »

check your cover...lots of times the shaft will stick in the cover leaving the gear free to fall out on the floor

RAFster122s · « **Reply #23 on:** December 12, 2016, 04:06:47 PM »

It reminds me of a manual transmission that failed on a cheap Chevy Chevette my dad drove to work for several years. He had put it in reverse andsomething in the tranny failed and it would not work any longer. He had a one way commute of about 18 miles a day. Car was towed to Looney Chevrolet and they "rebuilt" the transmission. Returned car and it was an absolute horror shifting from 2-3 and 3-4 or 1-2...
Dealer did nothing to fix or address complaints.
Rebuild didn't last a week before dad put it in reverse to back out of the parking spot and after releasing the clutch it started backing up befor loud noise and no movement again.
Had it towed from Kingsport, TN to Bristol, TN dealer he had done business with for over 20 years. They tore it down and had him come look at what they found. Young mechanic at other dealership had somehow reversed/switched the syncronizers for 1-2 and 2-3 and had used some kind of sealant on one of the main bearings that was oil lubricated. They had no clue why he would do what he did but it was difficult to switch the two synchros and clearly way off the book's instructions. They called in the GM district manager and he came saw the parts and heard the story and dad's transmission job charges were refunded by Looney Chevrolet in Kingsport and GM picked up the rebuild and cleanup costs on the 2nd job at Bill Gatton Chevrolet in Bristol. Apparently Looney chevrolet was chewed out by GM mgmt and was threatened with further actions if any similar complaints were ever to be filed. The mechanic in Kingsport responsible was fired per GM's instructions as well.
Seeing the mess you have discovered reminds me of that. I think Rip Van Winkle needs a new name...far worse than just a sleeping motorcycle, a real butchered bird

Beergineer · « **Reply #24 on:** December 12, 2016, 05:07:50 PM »

Sean, the shaft is not in the cover. I even checked to make sure the shaft didn't break in two.

Raf, that is one heck of a story. The title is more of a reference to me leaving the project untouched for so long. The bike is more like C3PO at the end Empire Strikes Back, a bunch of pieces in a bag being put back together by a wookie.

Tonight's progress includes getting the tire off the 17" rear and cleaning up most of that chrome. I took inventory of the parts I powdercoated two winters ago:

And then rooted through the other bins for the all the missing stuff.

News:

Author Topic: Rip Van Winkle; Waking up a K4 (Read 9615 times)