Author Topic: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?  (Read 12065 times)

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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2017, 03:50:34 AM »
Well even Hondaman has had a few issues with faulty components on his ignition amplifiers, so nothing is beyond failure. I've used electronic ignitions in CB750's almost since I bought my first one new 39 years ago, and whether it's electronic amplification of the standard points ignition's spark, or a complete contact-less ignition, they are a definite improvement.

Nowadays the Honda supplied points are poorer quality than what was available back in the day, so there's even more opportunity for maintenance/replacement/failure. If regularly cleaning/adjusting/replacing your ignition points is your thing, (for those of you who actually ride your bikes any distance, your points won't wear out in your garage) then enjoy, but I'd rather just set and forget. ;D
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Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2017, 04:04:13 AM »
After reading about problems with both Dyna-S and Pamco....who will get a stop on a remote road?

As with all internet reviews, most of the reviews you see are going to be negative. What about the thousands (or tens of thousands) of electronic ignitions currently in use for many years with no issues? How many of those ignition "issues" were a result of an incorrect installation? How many satisfied users are going to bother to wax poetically about their trouble free electronic ignitions? Not too many since most of them are out riding!  8)

As mentioned before, a loaded points plate for those long "remote roads" helps insure that an ignition won't leave you stranded, even though mine never has with over 30,000 trouble free miles. I've even considered trying to dedicate a space on the bike to carry a loaded points plate at all times since I do more "long haul" rides now than I used to.

Just don't forget to include the points cam too!  ;)
TAMTF...


Wilbur



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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2017, 06:34:31 AM »
As one who spent the early part of their life working with points. I still have my tach and dwell meter. I was thrilled when I installed my Dyna. As Terry said, set it and forget it. Having it fail going up a friggin narrow mountain road on two cylinders where at best I could do 25mph at 7K rpm was no fun. The motor was hot as hell and you could smell it. At the top the bikers behind me were amazed everything held together.

I sat at the top with them for a while. They said what are you gonna do. I said coast down to the bottom to get this thing out in the open and make some calls.

I got down OK and took a shot at staring it. It ran beautifully so I headed for home figuring every mile I went was a mile closer. When I got a mile from home it kicked out again at a traffic light. I reached down and pulled off #4 wire and nothing changed. Going home it is fairly flat.

I did a web search and found out this was a very common problem. Harley guys use them a lot. I called the company and was blown off since I had it 2 years not even a discount on a replacement.

That pissed me off. Went with PAMCO and I do not want to carry a points plate with me. A mechanical unit like points is very prone to failure and normal wear.  A failed condenser can cause the points to weld together which I have noticed. Rubbing blocks are known to break off etc.   

Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline lrutt

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2017, 06:44:04 AM »
Well, I have well over 150k total miles on all my different bikes and points have never ever left me stranded. The only bike that did leave me stranded was the one with a factory electronic ignition.

But like someone said, it's his money. If he's doing 10k miles a year then maybe possible EI, but for a casual rider like my 2 750's and my 550, points have sufficed just fine since 1978.
06 Harley Sporster 1200C, 06 Triumph Scrambler, 01 Ducati Chromo 900, 01 Honda XR650L, 94 Harley Heritage, 88 Honda Hawk GT, 84 Yamaha Virago 1000, 78 Honda 750K w/sidecar, 77 Moto Guzzi Lemans 850, 76 Honda CB750K, 73 Norton 850, 73 Honda Z50, 70 & 65 Honda Trail 90, 70 & 71 Triumph 650s, 65 Honda 305 Dream, 81 Honda 70 Passport, 70 Suzuki T250II, 71 Yamaha 360 RT1B, 77 BMW R75/7, 75 Honda CB550K, 70 Honda CT70

Offline PetesPonies

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2017, 08:13:41 AM »
Ignorance is not a virtue. If you don't understand the advantage to an electronic ignition and keep thinking it is just the maintenance of setting the points once in a while that people complain about . . . .  and didn't read or UNDERSTAND my previous post . . then your destiny is set.
Pete's Ponies
Mustang RUSToration & Performance

Offline Ridem32

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2017, 08:56:00 AM »
Points are very easy to set. But electronic is lots better bike or car runs better timing is more steady. On a new motor reviving 13k rpm points could not keep up. Most all of us started out with AOL dial up. That's all we had. Now we got flying high speed internet.  Who would keep dial up?  Case closed


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Offline 754

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2017, 09:39:35 AM »
Pete, its not always ignorance.. Part of it is a long hard look at lifestyle choices.
 I know Eignition is better in pretty well every way..
 But I live and have lived a lifestyle of travelling without credit cards and cellphones , and not calling a towtruck and getting a room lifestyle..
 And while I aint bragging...but I have had a lot of mornings of my life where my battery was under 9 volts.... And no...I didnt call a towtruck or look for a battery charger, or jumpers....I just went and kickstarted the bike and went on down the road..
 You yourself work on Stangs.. I think maybe early ones... Surely you must have some appreciation of old school. To allow yourself to drive or work on them.

Got a funny story..
Buddy grew up in a body shop, still in the industry. Had held probably at lest 50 Stangs...back in the day. Still gets that stuff thru the family shop. He is very highly trained in the trade, and also works for Mitchell systems..had a lot of Mopars and other cool stuff.
 So one day I asked.. Wouldnt it be cool to have an old stang or Cuda.... And he launches off about all the terrible points of them and cars of the era.. And he is right..
 But you know what.. We are here because we love these bikes despite their faults..
...and we set them up the way..We... Not someone else ...sees fit..and enjoy them..

 
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

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Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline PetesPonies

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2017, 09:53:53 AM »
I taught Auto for over 20 years. There is no way, once you fully understand the operation of an ignition system, that you can think a points system is better. I still have some points systems in my vehicles. But I own a large number of vehicles. There are some I like just having original. But I understand I am loosing energy , power and fuel mileage because of it. So it is a choice, and fit the choice to you, BUT understand the give and takes, the gains and losses. I always used this example in class . . .  many people with some age on them, probably own an old radio or TV .  and I mean really old. You just don't want to give it up. That is an example of how long a transistor( electronic ) device can last. It may be 50 years old now, turn it on and it works like it did in the 60s or 70s. But one day, you may turn it on and it's done :) But for all the time you used it, it worked perfectly. No degrading. You get maximum output. That is what an electronic ignition is doing for you.
Pete's Ponies
Mustang RUSToration & Performance

Offline 754

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2017, 10:20:08 AM »
Pete I hope you read the part were I agree they are better in near every way.
I was not going to mention, but I used system on the 750  that was better than stock that I like.
It uses GM V8 points.. I liked that ..at the time..availability.
But sadly they seemed to last a real long time.
The short fulcrum and inability to tweak the stock Honda points....is a real drawback...
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline BomberMann650

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2017, 10:27:36 AM »
Is it just me, or is this discussion headed the direction of a steering damper thread?   ;D

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2017, 11:37:20 AM »
Is it just me, or is this discussion headed the direction of a steering damper thread?   ;D

You mean there are no actual technical facts and just unsupported and meaningless emotional testimonials and repeated marketing hype? 
If so, then yes, certainly.

I'll add this, just for fun.  What will EMP do to a points system, compared to any electronic device on your bike?

And what has any of the electronic SOHC4 retrofit points replacement ignitions actually done for operating, in cylinder, spark voltage?  I'm not talking bench possibilities, I'm talking run time, in cylinder actualities.  Where have you seen actual MPG improvement tests (rather than claims), or Dyno curves, or ET improvement numbers directly attributed to solely replacing the points component of the ignition system?  ANY proof in SOHC4s?

Please do NOT compare a points replacer to a complete replacement of the entire ignition system such as found in modern vehicles, unless you also wish to compare a Hayabusa with a Cb750 and think that is equally fair.

Amazing, to me, how much faith people put into electronic operation when they have no concept of how the devices actually operate.

Answer this, can anything made by mankind fail?

Yes.

It is what MTBFs (Mean Time Between Failure) were designed to quantify.  One part of this quantification is number of components in the system, where more components usually indicate lower reliability or sooner times to failure.  And it only take one weak or weakened part to lower the rating.  How many components in the comparative systems?

Just about any lump of metal has a lower MTBF than a transistor, when each are operated within their stress margins.

Anyone else aware that the recipe for making a transistor has changed dramatically in the last 50 years?  The transistors today are NOT what they were 50 years ago.  And are NOT universally better.  This is likely, imo, what caused the spate of Dyna failures, using currently available parts in a (very non-optimized circuit) designed 40 years ago.

But, facts aside, please... continue to expound upon your belief system...  Passes the time... ;D

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline PetesPonies

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2017, 01:13:20 PM »
You want technical facts? I'll teach my ignition lesson if you wish. What a BS comment you made Tired. If you know so much, and more than me, then lets see your facts? I have hours of facts, a complete unit.
Pete's Ponies
Mustang RUSToration & Performance

Offline 754

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2017, 01:48:46 PM »
Ok, will the 750 units start at 9 volts?
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2017, 02:06:03 PM »
Is it just me, or is this discussion headed the direction of a steering damper thread?   ;D

You mean there are no actual technical facts and just unsupported and meaningless emotional testimonials and repeated marketing hype? 
If so, then yes, certainly.

I'll add this, just for fun.  What will EMP do to a points system, compared to any electronic device on your bike?

And what has any of the electronic SOHC4 retrofit points replacement ignitions actually done for operating, in cylinder, spark voltage?  I'm not talking bench possibilities, I'm talking run time, in cylinder actualities.  Where have you seen actual MPG improvement tests (rather than claims), or Dyno curves, or ET improvement numbers directly attributed to solely replacing the points component of the ignition system?  ANY proof in SOHC4s?

Please do NOT compare a points replacer to a complete replacement of the entire ignition system such as found in modern vehicles, unless you also wish to compare a Hayabusa with a Cb750 and think that is equally fair.

Amazing, to me, how much faith people put into electronic operation when they have no concept of how the devices actually operate.

Answer this, can anything made by mankind fail?

Yes.

It is what MTBFs (Mean Time Between Failure) were designed to quantify.  One part of this quantification is number of components in the system, where more components usually indicate lower reliability or sooner times to failure.  And it only take one weak or weakened part to lower the rating.  How many components in the comparative systems?

Just about any lump of metal has a lower MTBF than a transistor, when each are operated within their stress margins.

Anyone else aware that the recipe for making a transistor has changed dramatically in the last 50 years?  The transistors today are NOT what they were 50 years ago.  And are NOT universally better.  This is likely, imo, what caused the spate of Dyna failures, using currently available parts in a (very non-optimized circuit) designed 40 years ago.

But, facts aside, please... continue to expound upon your belief system...  Passes the time... ;D

There is no doubt in my mind that an EMP event will render my bike an accumulation of metal, plastic and rubber parts. 

For me it is matter of convenience. My Dyna failure was caused by temperate. It would run well with the points cover off. That is all the test data I personally have. With the electronic ignitions nothing magical happened in performance. 

I do have a points plate with a new set of points and condenser sitting on a shelf.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2017, 02:15:21 PM »
You want technical facts? I'll teach my ignition lesson if you wish.
You can try.  Hopefully, without the bluster.  But, I don't really need the lessons, I want A-B performance test comparisons with an SOHC4.

What a BS comment you made Tired.
That's pretty rich.  No tech, just personal attack to polarize topic.  Oh well, carry on...

I have hours of facts, a complete unit.

I'd actually like relevant facts.  Rather than marketing innuendo, half truths, and inference.

Actual relevant engine performance data has been pretty hard to come by, if not invisible.  Mostly claims and razzle dazzle for the uneducated.  And people wishing to legitimize and boast of their decision righteousness using non technical, and non-verifiable emotionally charged adjectives.

Go ahead, show me the proof, the verifiable 3rd party test results that anyone with means can replicate.  I'm open...

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2017, 02:54:41 PM »
For me it is matter of convenience. My Dyna failure was caused by temperate. It would run well with the points cover off. That is all the test data I personally have. With the electronic ignitions nothing magical happened in performance. 

I have no problem with the convenience argument.  A working electronic ignition is certainly more convenient regarding periodic maintenance than the points system.  The degree of such convenience is relative.   However, it also takes away any technical prowess required by the user or maintenance tech.  This latter point, and the source parts costs, I can see is a major impetus for current vehicles widespread employment of the electronic ignition, along with other changes in the sparking system, of course.

If you are happy paying for such convenience, it's your money to give to someone else.  Well, at least it was...

I'm a bit dismayed at the loss of technical prowess in general, as well as personal abilities. A points system is really not that difficult to understand.  I mean, it was pretty much common knowledge in the 70s. Were people really smarter back then, before electronics/computers supplanted personal knowledge of how things work? 
For example, how many times have we addressed SOHC4 start up techniques to those that have operated no other vehicles than computerized injection vehicles, that provide precise fuel metering regardless of engine temp?  The current expectation is that the motor should run the same hot or cold, and if it doesn't something is broken.  It's just not true of the SOHC4.  Do we need to develop and retrofit a computerized injection system for the SOHC4, so as to not require the holding open of the throttle during warm up to keep the engine running?  Is this a convenience that is worth the cost and the change to the machine's character?  Is this prowess to attend to the machine's needs properly to be eliminated?  Would this really be advocation of a vintage machine?

Anyway, similar arguments can be made for ABS, with the query, does it really make for a better driver who has no clue as to the limits of their cars traction capability?
Is it more convenient?  Yes.  Does it make for a safer driver, as accident statistics show?  Or, is it just furthering a less learned/capable driver population.  For my VW, it also means I can't perform simple brake pad replacement, without a computer dialog to tell it to retract the piston.  Personally, I don't want Honda to take over ALL the maintenance of my bike.  I also don't have any new motorcycles for similar reasons.

The SOHC4 is and old vintage machine.  Does it need all the modern vehicle updates available to appreciate the machine?  I don't feel there is a technical requirement that it does.  And, such goals would be better served by buying a newer, updated machine and giving up on doing any work to it.  Sure is more convenient, that way.  ;)

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Nic

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2017, 03:34:55 PM »
I have the CB750 and a Kawa Z900, I live out in a small town so just about all my riding is highway riding, I once had 2+3 coil crap itself but I was only 5 minutes out of town, the thought that this could happen again slightly dampens the enthusiasm whether it's a coil failure or an ignition failure.
At one point I had Dyna S on both bikes but then I started to read about failures, I now have Mark's Transistorized ignition and points back in both and really only have to lube the heel of the points now n again, I feel more secure knowing my ignition won't #$%* itself out on the highway, I have no problem setting points and if Marks unit fails it doesn't ruin my day as you know you just bypass it and off you go.
There seems to be enough failures of the Dyna S system to justify ditching them on my bikes at least.
 

Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2017, 03:38:11 PM »
TAMTF...


Wilbur



Projects:
"Evolution": http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=100352.0
"P.O. Debacle": http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,126692.msg1441661.html#msg1441661
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Cam Tower Studs: https://www.mcmaster.com/#93210a017/=t19sgp
Clean up that nasty harness: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=137351.msg1549191#msg1549191
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,148188.msg1688494.html#msg1688494
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,139544.msg1579364.html#msg1579364
                                          
Charging system diagnosis: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=1012.msg8345#msg8345
Get the manuals: http://manuals.sohc4.net/cb750k/
The Dragon: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45183.msg1571675#msg1571675
Headlight Switch: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=113986.msg1283236#msg1283236
Branden's leak free top end thread: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=107040.0
Engine Lifting Made Easy: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,58210.msg1684742.html#msg1684742
                                      http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1675840.html#msg1675840
Static and Dynamic Timing: http://www.hondachopper.com/garage/carb_info/timing/timing1.html
Airbox Gasket Replacement: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,114485.msg1290000.html#msg1290000
"Café" : http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,84697.msg953814.html#msg953814
PD Carb Choke Linkage: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1669248.html#msg1669248
                                    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,110931.msg1248354.html#msg1248354
                                    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,48858.msg515204.html#msg515204
Follow up on your damn posts: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,144305.msg1791605.html#msg1791605
Taiwanese Cam Chain Tensioners:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,155043.msg1774841.html#msg1774841
Gumtwo Seat Cover: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,164440.msg1897366.html#msg1897366
Primary Drive: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,166063.msg1919278.html#msg1919278
Tank Latch: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,165975.msg1919495.html#msg1919495
Shorten your forks: http://vintage-and-classic-honda-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/How-to-shorten-forks-td4042465.html DO NOT CUT THE SPRINGS!
Clutch How To: http://vintage-and-classic-honda-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/How-to-change-and-adjust-a-clutch-SOHC-td4040391.html
Late model K7/K8/F2/F3 front sprocket cover removal: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,178428.msg2072279.html#msg2072279
630 to 530 conversion: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180710.msg2094423.html#msg2094423

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Offline PetesPonies

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2017, 04:00:25 PM »
If we can agree, the goal is secondary voltage. If you don't understand how secondary voltage is created, look it up, read about it. But the short version . .it's all about the primary circuit magnetic field that is created. The strength of that field and the quickness and COMPLETENESS of the collapse of that field. That , along with the amount of windings, is what generates the secondary voltage. A points systems starts out at a disadvantage. Points inherently cannot survive at voltages greater than about 9V. plus, they don't allow the magnetic field to collapse quickly and completely when the voltage gets highers. We are still talking about 9V, but the difference between 9V and 12V to the points, it very important and damaging. If the primary circuit current flow doesn't die immediately, is allowed to arc across and allow some flow still, the secondary voltage created is effected greatly. But in the entire picture of trying to get the most from the secondary circuit, that extra 3V or 33 % more voltage, is crucial.
What I have outlined here is not everything that makes one type better than another. It didn't even include the degrading aspect that is very important. But what I showed above is just factual physical differences and things that cannot be changed. You are working within certain parameters with an ignition system, some that can be changed and some that cannot. This causes a difference in the secondary created voltage, that going back to my first sentence, is the ultimate goal.
Pete's Ponies
Mustang RUSToration & Performance

Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2017, 04:20:07 PM »
Without highjacking completely is there a way to test a dyna 3 without installing it? I have one off a parts bike that I've though about using.

Btw, as far as points go, they've never failed me in any of my vehicles.

And twotired, to answer your question about fuel injection, the answer is yes apparently we do. Look at all the "easy" efi setups out there that bolt in place of a quadrajet or other 4 barrel carb. Would I ever use one? Nope, but there is a market.


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1968 Honda Z50
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Offline BomberMann650

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2017, 05:18:11 PM »
I believe the young, next-generation, of vintage bike enthusiasts have a unique perspective and opportunity because of the era we live in.

Perspective, because science and technology have grown as we grew (millenial generation wise) this pertains to much of our everyday lives by now.

Opportunity, as we learn what our forefathers crafted.  While having the means to merge the new with the old. 

Nostalgia for points is one thing.  To say that this new tech (which really isn't all that new) is a waste, unproven, unreliable, et al.  That argument (while not without its merit) harkens to the ideals of a luddite.  A horse is a fine farming tool.  But a tractor can do the work of ten horses without catching colic.  There are those who still farm with draft horses, tho few would deny the versatile capability of the tractor.



Offline scottly

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2017, 06:52:11 PM »

I'll add this, just for fun.  What will EMP do to a points system, compared to any electronic device on your bike?

Just how far can you ride with a points system after the EMP toasts your rectifier diodes? ::) ;D
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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2017, 06:59:59 PM »
hmmm, here is Scottly!  Perhaps the only sohc4 member with his very own dyno.  I would gladly send him a dyna S and a loaded points plate in return for a little scientific testing?...
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2017, 07:20:03 PM »
If we can agree, the goal is secondary voltage.

I guess we may have different goals, after all.  My goal would be to effect a change that would improve, in some way, the HP, efficiency or MPG of the machine when proved necessary.  It might be impressive to have a sissy bar made from a jacobs ladder.  But, would that be a tangible performance improvement?  Certainly has more voltage than stock!  ;)

The stock bike produces a secondary voltage already and ignites the fuel air mixture.  Existence proof is all the operating SOHC4s running with the stock spark circuitry. 

If you don't understand how secondary voltage is created, look it up, read about it. But the short version . .it's all about the primary circuit magnetic field that is created. The strength of that field and the quickness and COMPLETENESS of the collapse of that field. That , along with the amount of windings, is what generates the secondary voltage.

Of course, a secondary voltage is produced.  That voltage rises until the spark gap is ionized and forms a conductive channel.  The voltage necessary to create the channel is greater than the voltage needed to maintain it and the rapid current drain on the secondary, prevents further voltage increases.  There are spark waveforms available for viewing if that is in dispute.  If you are implying that the spark cycle must be shorter (quickness) to be improved.  I'm not sure I can agree with that either.  The SOHC4 is swirl quenched, the longer the spark lasts when introduced, the larger the initial wavefront of combustion leading to a more complete burn throughout the power stroke.  This is what the Honda engineers were striving for, if I understand it correctly; efficiency and power output of the motor.

Since the in-cylinder operation of the spark voltage can't be significantly increased (without increasing the spark gap), your goal it seems, is actually to produce more spark current from the increase in power delivered to the spark gap.  This comes at a cost of increased spark electrode erosion.  Less than crisp edged electrodes will require a higher voltage to initiate a spark.  But, until the gaps increase in distance, the voltage to maintain spark will remain the same as when unmodified SOHC4 ignitions are employed.

A points systems starts out at a disadvantage. Points inherently cannot survive at voltages greater than about 9V. plus, they don't allow the magnetic field to collapse quickly and completely when the voltage gets highers.

Well, not in my experience.  Telco central office systems of yore had, egads, a lot of relay contacts that operated at 48 volts routinely.  Yes, they had to be reconditioned periodically, just like the points in the SOHC4.

Now current and power factor through point contact's make and break operations are another matter.  But, this has to do with contact sizing, material contact pressures, and contact cooling measures.

We are still talking about 9V, but the difference between 9V and 12V to the points, it very important and damaging. If the primary circuit current flow doesn't die immediately, is allowed to arc across and allow some flow still, the secondary voltage created is effected greatly. But in the entire picture of trying to get the most from the secondary circuit, that extra 3V or 33 % more voltage, is crucial.

I'm sorry.  But, If you are trying to assert that the stock ignition circuit can't possibly work and as well as it has for over 40 years, I'm afraid you may have lost me.

What I have outlined here is not everything that makes one type better than another. It didn't even include the degrading aspect that is very important. But what I showed above is just factual physical differences and things that cannot be changed. You are working within certain parameters with an ignition system, some that can be changed and some that cannot. This causes a difference in the secondary created voltage, that going back to my first sentence, is the ultimate goal.

If, for a moment, we assume secondary voltage is such a laudable goal, and "better".  Please show test data that demonstrates some aspect of a performance  improvement (HP, MPG, etc.) in an SOHC4, when an electronic ignition trigger is substituted for a points system in proper working order. 
Is this really too much to ask?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?
« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2017, 07:28:13 PM »

I'll add this, just for fun.  What will EMP do to a points system, compared to any electronic device on your bike?

Just how far can you ride with a points system after the EMP toasts your rectifier diodes? ::) ;D

Well, it's a good point.  But, you already know it will run until the battery runs down.  Several miles before you walk or push.  Could be important to escape the effects of nuclear radiation.

Of course, I could disguise a faraday cage that emulated the look of PODs.  And put the diodes in there!
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.