Author Topic: Oil Cooler Thread  (Read 157381 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Where area use it (oil cooler) of engine ?
« Reply #275 on: May 27, 2007, 01:06:51 PM »
This unit pictured is supposed to have an adapter that fits on the threaded portion so it can 1/4-turn into the oil tank cap. I remember these in the 1970s, lots were sold. It had a side effect: when the bike was run hard, it would burn the lady's leg if she was wearing shorts. It moves a lot of heat, but the version shown is for wet-sump bikes, not the CB750 (it's missing the adapter for the oil tank).
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Offline neil young

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installing an oil cooler from terry on my cb 500 help
« Reply #276 on: May 27, 2007, 06:15:26 PM »
i purchased one of terrys oil coolers.im now trying to install it on a 1971 cb 500 frame with a 1977 550 engine,but the horn is interfering with the top of the cooling fins.has anybody else installed one of these on a 500 frame ..if so help
1972 CB500 k1
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Offline Gordon

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Re: installing an oil cooler from terry on my cb 500 help
« Reply #277 on: May 27, 2007, 07:39:55 PM »
I can't say I've installed one before, but the horn should be fairly easy to either move out of the way or even relocate if needed. 

Offline neil young

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Re: installing an oil cooler from terry on my cb 500 help
« Reply #278 on: May 27, 2007, 11:34:33 PM »
problem solved....i removed the bolt on the left of the horn swung it out of the way and bingo.now i have to find a couple of u shaped thing a ma bobs to install said cooler to the frame,drill a new hole for the horn bracket and off i go   ::) ;D 8)
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Offline Jinxracing

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Oil temps and oil coolers
« Reply #279 on: July 16, 2007, 04:01:01 PM »
My basket-case '70 CB750K1 came with an aftermarket oil cooler and filter adapter in one of the accompanying crates, but I was wondering how necessary/effective they really are?

I'd like to feel comfortable NOT running an external oil cooler purely for aesthetic reasons, but also want to keep my engine as happy as possible. I've already got an ISO oil galley cooler (of dubious effectiveness, but it looks cool  ;D); perhaps there are other oil cooler alternatives that I'm not aware of?

Terry, maybe you could chime in on this one?
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Oil temps and oil coolers
« Reply #280 on: July 17, 2007, 01:06:11 AM »
I'll provide the unpopular opinion that the SOHC4 used on the street simply doesn't need an extra oil cooler.

If you are asking for 80 to 100 % power output from the engine for long durations and in high ambient temps then you should have an oil cooler to give your oil longevity and thereby save the engine from poor lubrication.

Look where the heat goes from the engine.
1 - the exhaust
2 - the cooling fins
3 - the oil tank and filter fins.

The SOHC4 has a very large cooling fin surface area.  Oil coolers have very small surface area by any comparison.  Further, they are usually mounted in front of the engine.  Any heat they dissipate passes to the engine cooling fins, reducing their effectiveness.
Oil circulation in the SOHC4 only incidentally passes near the combustion chamber heat source.

All the heat removed from the engine is transferred to the surrounding air.
Air has a thermal conductivity of about 0.026
Engine oil has a thermal conductivity of 0.15
Aluminum has a thermal conductivity of 210-250 depending on alloy.
What do you want to use to carry heat away from the engine?

I don't think even the oil cooler manufacturers provide any comparative data of oil temps or engine temps before and after the cooler installation.  It's for certain I've never seen published or documented findings for the SOHC4.
The proliferation of oil coolers seems to be based on the "cool" factor of looks, or the everybody-else-has-one-so-it-must-be-good reasons.

But, don't use an oil cooler to cool the engine.  Use it to cool the oil so the oil will last longer if that is what you need.  An oil break down will cause increased friction and higher resultant engine temperatures.

Where does the oil gain the most heat?  At the engine crank and rod journals when under high load.  The film of oil becomes highly compressed at this point and the compression causes the oil temp to skyrocket.  It is not conducted into the oil, it is generated within the oil.  If you want to monitor peak oil temps, do so right after it leaves the crank and rod journals, before the engine case has a chance to lower it's temperature.
Why do you want to know this?  Because, if you know that the oil has been overly abused you might want to change it earlier than the 1500 miles  where viscosity break down would occur anyway.
I don't believe an oil cooler will allow extending the oil change interval for a street engine.  But, if you are driving extended distances in the desert heat at high speed, it could help the oil retain most of it's qualities up to that change interval.

If you want to find out if your current oil cooling system is effective for your needs, monitor the oil as it is being delivered to the main oil feed galley.  If the temps are routinely getting over 230-260 F, then you are likely damaging your oil under high load conditions and shortening it's useful life.  Either use an oil with higher temperature tollerance, change oil more frequently, or add an oil cooler.

Overcooling could be worse than undercooling.  The oil's operating temp must be in a certain range to squirt though the engine clearances as the designer's intened.  Too cold and the oil doesn't flow properly and starvation effects can be encountered.  This is why oil coolers must be fitted with a thermal bypass valve to prevent cooling of oil not up to operating temperature.  A secondary issue of the thermal bypass valve is that during cold weather, it may trap some oil in the cooler when the oil never gets to a temp that needs cooler circulation.  The danger here is that the oil in the cooler never gets to a temperature that allows water condensation to vaporize.  The water, in turn, forms acids in the oil and begins erroding metal bits in the engine.  Changing the oil in the cooler can be problematic in cold weather months, particularly if you can't get the thermal bypass valve to open up.

Are oil coolers for SOHC4's necessary?  Perhaps in special circumstances, yes.  Normally no.

Are they effective?  Depends on the engineering of the oil cooler in question.  They can be, of course.  They are not necessarily effective simply because it has been labeled or described "oil cooler".

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Bodi

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Re: Oil temps and oil coolers
« Reply #281 on: July 17, 2007, 07:11:34 AM »
Well, I agree that an oil cooler only cools the oil and doesn't help cool the engine noticably.
the oil gets almost all its heating from the head, though. Oil is sprayed (dribbled?) on the cam lobes and gets splashed around to the cam and rocker bearings, running down over the top of the head and down through the cylinders to the sump. The oil gets gets roughly as hot as the head itself, only a small fraction of the circulated volume gets to the head but the added heat quickly heats the entire oil volume. Quite a bit of heat is transferred from the barrel casting into the engine cases as well, and this heats the oil as it is sprayed around from the bearings and gears. Oil tahta makes its way up to the cylinder walls, lubricating the piston movement, gets pretty dang hot as well. Frictional and compression heat is negligible in comparison to direct heating.
Overcooling is a bit of a fantasy. There's an obvious contradiction in saying a cooler does very little cooling and then that it does too much cooling. Riding in extreme cold weather might keep the oil temperature below optimum but in real world use an oil cooler won't make the oil too cold. All the SOHC4 engines run hot compared to a liquid cooled engine, and an oil cooler is a decent idea that will help avoid overheating the oil. If you're doing mostly highway driving (where there's lots of cooling airflow) with a stock engine then the cooler is more of an appearance accessory, true. With a bored out higher compression engine or hotrodding around town - lots of high throttle bursts but not a lot of sustained speed - the cooler will definitely help lower the oil temperature from "extremely hot" to just "too hot".

Offline edbikerii

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Re: Oil temps and oil coolers
« Reply #282 on: July 17, 2007, 07:48:40 AM »
Any well-engineered oil cooling system should incorporate a thermostat to elminate over-cooling by shutting off the oil flow to the cooler.  If the thermostat is chosen properly, then the cooler should only be active when the oil is too hot.  That thermostat should open at a couple degrees higher than the oil temperature that the Honda engineers designed the engine around.  Does anybody here know what that temperature is for an air-cooled SOHC4?

I've often wondered whether there is any benefit to having an oil cooler in city traffic, because air flow is minimal anyway.  Perhaps the added surface area of the cooler might help?  An electric fan would probably be much more useful, but would certainly over-tax the charging system at its weakest operating state.
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Offline LoopsAndLogic

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Re: Oil temps and oil coolers
« Reply #283 on: July 17, 2007, 09:16:17 AM »
What I don't get is, if Honda is such a great manufacture, why didn't they put a thermostat for the oil cooler in their line of CB650 nighthawks???

Seriously, I've checked the years from 1983 to 1986 and not one of them has that.

 I was looking into to purchasing one cause of the gear driven cams and the smooth ride that they have, but since I like to ride in really cold weather in the fall, I can see where this sort of  setup is bad for the motor.

I'm glad I saw this post. One thing that I do is, when the colder months come around, I just remove my oil cooler from my 400f.

I enjoyed reading your story TT. Very nice job ;)

Later

LL

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86' Honda XR600R for Street Madness
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83' Kawasaki KZ550 A3
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Oil temps and oil coolers
« Reply #284 on: July 17, 2007, 09:40:36 AM »
Yes, TT, I hadn't even thought about the condensate trapped in the oil cooler/hoses/valve during colder months when the thermal valve never opens.  Nice corrosion problem there.
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Offline Steve F

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Re: Oil temps and oil coolers
« Reply #285 on: July 17, 2007, 09:44:37 AM »
I've often wondered whether there is any benefit to having an oil cooler in city traffic, because air flow is minimal anyway.  Perhaps the added surface area of the cooler might help? 
Several times now, I've had the misforture of getting stuck in stop-and-go traffic for more time than I would like, and the engine's oil pressure starts to get low because of the overheated oil even WITH and oil cooler.  As soon as I get moving again, I can literally watch the pressure get back to normal.  I'd bet that couldn't happen without the oil cooler.  In the cold weather, since mine has no thermostat, I can place a cover over it to keep things normal.

Offline edbikerii

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Re: Oil temps and oil coolers
« Reply #286 on: July 17, 2007, 10:14:28 AM »
Yes, LL, I'm pretty surprised by that as well.  I've also looked at the fiche for the Suzuki Bandit, and don't see any thermostat inline with the oil cooler there either.  The engines must have generally been found to run hotter than desired, so perhaps the engineers determined that they needed more cooling full-time, or something like that.

I'd also point out that motorcycles these days are designed as 'fair weather' fun machines.  The manufacturers seem to expect the bikes to be ridden only when the outside temperature is 60-80 degrees F.  Whenever the temps dropped below 40F I used to have carburetor icing problems with my old Yamaha Seca II.  I had to pull over and wait until the ice in the carb throats melted before the bike would start up again.  Finally solved that with isopropyl alcohol in the fuel.

As SteveF mentioned, in cooler months you could just cover the oil cooler.  I've seen school buses and trucks around here with covers over the radiators in the winter.  I think that has to do with the larger capacity radiators.  By the time the thermostat opens in the winter, the coolant in the radiator might be "over-cooled".  I've even seen some elaborate covers with sliding door openings to allow various degrees of cooling.

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Oil temps and oil coolers
« Reply #287 on: July 17, 2007, 11:44:40 AM »
Quote
Overcooling is a bit of a fantasy. There's an obvious contradiction in saying a cooler does very little cooling and then that it does too much cooling.

I dissagree. The SOHC4 has no means by which to regulate it's core temp.  The cooling fins are sized to remove enough heat on a hot day when the engine is making power to prevent the engine from overheating.  At all other times there is more fin area than necessary and the engine is overcooled unless airflow is stopped.  On a cold day and with short run times, the cooling fin/mass ratio makes even getting to proper operating temperature unattainable.  Wittness my CB550 accumulating "mayonaise" near the dipstick, during winter months and 25 minute runtimes, twice daily.   My 550's have no oil cooler, yet it cannot vaporize the condensate in the oil.  This oil is overcooled, as well as the engine.  And, the oil cooler is irrelevant to that fact.  Adding an oil cooler to this engine operating in this regime will not improve oil and engine health.  The weather very seldom gets below freezing here, so it is hard to describe it as "extreme".

While the engine oil does absorb some heat from the engine components, the aluminum cooling fins are about 200 times more effective at removing the combustion and friction heat.  The cooling fins are what keeps the splash oil from overheating.  Given that the oil is at the operating temperature of the engine, the peak temperatures the oil endures is at the rod and bearing journals where they additionallyare compressed.  It is the peak temperature excursions that we are trying to avoid in order to preserve the oil, with or without an additional oil cooler.  Certainly the situation is quite different in the summer 95 degree heat while sitting at the stop light.  The lack of airflow over the engine cooling fins, allows it to retain heat, elevating the oil temp.  But, there is also lack of air movement over an oil cooler, too, denigrating it's beneficial effect.  Cool the engine and the oil will follow.

There would be an "obvious contradiction" if the machine were always operated under the same environmental and power conditions.  Since it is not, it can both overcool and undercool.   Just not at the same time and no contradiction.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Oil temps and oil coolers
« Reply #288 on: July 17, 2007, 12:12:51 PM »
That thermostat should open at a couple degrees higher than the oil temperature that the Honda engineers designed the engine around.  Does anybody here know what that temperature is for an air-cooled SOHC4?

I've often wondered whether there is any benefit to having an oil cooler in city traffic, because air flow is minimal anyway.  Perhaps the added surface area of the cooler might help?  An electric fan would probably be much more useful, but would certainly over-tax the charging system at its weakest operating state.

You might have that engineering concept a bit backwards.  I expect the material properties of the oil set the temperature requirements.  In those days, common automotive oil was good up to 230 degrees and often began to breakdown above 260 F.  That and the projected operating environment likely dictated the fin area.  The oil change schedule could also have been shortened due to the expected oil damage from occasional temperature excursions beyond safe limits.  Oil was relatively cheap back then.

I agree a fan would be much more beneficial than an oil cooler while stopped in city traffic.  Also, with your assessment of the charging system.  What about dual headlights? A weak 25 watter for day use would free up 20-30 watts for a fan addition.  Then camo the kludge with about 50 rear view mirrors sprinkled about.  ;D

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Oil temps and oil coolers
« Reply #289 on: July 17, 2007, 12:27:16 PM »
What I don't get is, if Honda is such a great manufacture, why didn't they put a thermostat for the oil cooler in their line of CB650 nighthawks???

The short answer is that they didn't want the addition to cause service headaches.

A thermosat makes oil changes more difficult.  How to get the oil out of the cooler?
 I suspect Honda knew that the street benefits of the cooler were minimal from an engineering standpoint.  However, consumer demand and marketing played a big role in the oil cooler addition, much the same way racing stripes do.  (They use it on the track, I want it on my bike!)
So, make it small and largely vestigal.  Its a check mark on the list of sales features.

It might be interesting to see the actual oil routing of these engines.  Perhaps the oil from the cooler is allowed a preheat by the engine mass before delivery to the oil galley?  Something else to consider when "adapting" your SOHC4.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline LoopsAndLogic

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Re: Oil temps and oil coolers
« Reply #290 on: July 17, 2007, 12:46:47 PM »

It might be interesting to see the actual oil routing of these engines.  Perhaps the oil from the cooler is allowed a preheat by the engine mass before delivery to the oil galley?  Something else to consider when "adapting" your SOHC4.
[/quote]


OOOHHHH! Good one :)

I'm wondering if I should put the oil cooler on now........ Or just leave it off.

Hey TT, would you mind if I send you a PM later. My sister bought a 1980 Honda C70 Passport scooter and I had just one question??

Couldn't find any forums for this model.

LL

My rides:
75' 76' Honda CB400F Super Sports
86' Honda XR600R for Street Madness
84' Honda Interceptor VF500

Past Rides:
80' Honda CX500C Fully Dressed
81' Honda CB650C very nice!
83' Kawasaki KZ550 A3
78' Hondamatic 400 Hawk
80' 81' 82' Honda GL500 Silverwing Insterstate

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Oil temps and oil coolers
« Reply #291 on: July 17, 2007, 12:53:47 PM »
Several times now, I've had the misforture of getting stuck in stop-and-go traffic for more time than I would like, and the engine's oil pressure starts to get low because of the overheated oil even WITH and oil cooler.  As soon as I get moving again, I can literally watch the pressure get back to normal.  I'd bet that couldn't happen without the oil cooler.  In the cold weather, since mine has no thermostat, I can place a cover over it to keep things normal.

Hey Steve,
Are you engineering or gambling?  I'm thinking you might just lose that bet.  The relayed anecdote also seems to be supporting the theory that an oil cooler will not save your oil stopped in city traffic, but any airflow will.   Doesn't this support the engine cooling fin effectiveness position?

Things don't always work the way we desperately desire them to, I've found.

It also seems to me that your falling oil pressure is a sign of oil damage or breakdown.  Isn't it supposed to be multivis so that the pressure remains even?  Might want to step up the oil change schedule or use an oil that has better high temperature withstand properties.

Just some thoughts...

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Oil temps and oil coolers
« Reply #292 on: July 17, 2007, 01:02:29 PM »
I'm wondering if I should put the oil cooler on now........ Or just leave it off.
Depends.  Why do you think you need/want one?  Are you operating your bike outside of Honda's operational guidelines?  What special circumstances or conditions have you encountered or expect to encounter that warrant the addition?

Hey TT, would you mind if I send you a PM later. My sister bought a 1980 Honda C70 Passport scooter and I had just one question??

Couldn't find any forums for this model.
Okay, I'll turn off my PM blocker.  ;D

There is an "other bikes" forum, FYI.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline edbikerii

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Re: Oil temps and oil coolers
« Reply #293 on: July 17, 2007, 01:06:12 PM »
Agreed, TT.  The limitations of the oil most definitely determined the engineer's operating temperatures.  Once determined, all the rest of the engine was designed with that operating temp in mind.  Expansion, clearances, etc. all depend on the engine operating within the expected range.

Hence, my further agreement that not having a properly selected thermostat inline with the oil cooler can lead to 'over-cooling', and have detrimental effects on performance and engine life.

Also, the later 77 & 78 CB550s with the 'lean-burn' carbs seem to me to run too hot in general.  I've never ridden an earlier CB550, but in comparison to my air-cooled Yamaha Seca II, my CB550 has always run too hot in city traffic.  I suspect that the lean mixture causes much higher combustion temperatures.  I get the feeling that Honda changed the carbs to meet the new EPA requirements, but considered the higher temperatures 'acceptable' to continue selling the bike without a re-design.
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1997 YAMAHA XJ600S - SOLD
1986 GL1200I - SOLD
2004 BMW R1150R

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Offline Steve F

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Re: Oil temps and oil coolers
« Reply #294 on: July 17, 2007, 01:13:45 PM »
Several times now, I've had the misforture of getting stuck in stop-and-go traffic for more time than I would like, and the engine's oil pressure starts to get low because of the overheated oil even WITH and oil cooler.  As soon as I get moving again, I can literally watch the pressure get back to normal.  I'd bet that couldn't happen without the oil cooler.  In the cold weather, since mine has no thermostat, I can place a cover over it to keep things normal.

Hey Steve,
Are you engineering or gambling?  I'm thinking you might just lose that bet.  The relayed anecdote also seems to be supporting the theory that an oil cooler will not save your oil stopped in city traffic, but any airflow will.   Doesn't this support the engine cooling fin effectiveness position?
It also seems to me that your falling oil pressure is a sign of oil damage or breakdown.  Isn't it supposed to be multivis so that the pressure remains even?  Might want to step up the oil change schedule or use an oil that has better high temperature withstand properties.

Just some thoughts...

Cheers,


I realize this.  Any air flow will work, YES.  But what I was getting at is that the oil cooler is doing the job very well, once I get moving of course.  Oil cooler or not, things get hot in stop-and-go traffic with no air flowing over the fins...everyone knows this.  BTW, I'm running Valvoline's motorcycle 20W50 oil.  Multi-vis or not, there's a natural thinning when things heat up.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Oil temps and oil coolers
« Reply #295 on: July 17, 2007, 01:51:22 PM »
I realize this.  Any air flow will work, YES.  But what I was getting at is that the oil cooler is doing the job very well, once I get moving of course. 

No offense.  But, the anecdote you relayed does not identify what part of the oil pressure recovery (in itself an inference of oil temperature) was due to the oil cooler and what part was due to the engine cooling fin effectiveness, once airflow resumed.

As the engine cooling fin area is vastly larger than the oil cooler area and is a far more effective heat conductor than the oil, it seems much more likely that the engine fins are the more effective cooling device in the given senario.

Also, when you begin moving, the engine and oil pump are operating at a higher RPM, which generates more oil pressure.

While I don't dissregard what you relate.  I simply don't see definitive proof of a decided oil cooler benefit. 

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Oil temps and oil coolers
« Reply #296 on: July 17, 2007, 02:11:22 PM »
Also, the later 77 & 78 CB550s with the 'lean-burn' carbs seem to me to run too hot in general.  I've never ridden an earlier CB550, but in comparison to my air-cooled Yamaha Seca II, my CB550 has always run too hot in city traffic.  I suspect that the lean mixture causes much higher combustion temperatures.  I get the feeling that Honda changed the carbs to meet the new EPA requirements, but considered the higher temperatures 'acceptable' to continue selling the bike without a re-design.

A bit of a thread highjack, I suppose, Ed.  But, I agree, those models seem to run hotter (except the F model).  My 78 has cooked valve guide seals to help prove it. (grumble)

A bit difficult to add fin area to castings, without a rather large production tooling cost hit.
The Japanese viewpoint might have been;
"The American regulators are making us change things for the American market.  So be it.  We can do minor tweaks to placate. We'll have a new model out shortly to do it right.  New models will sell better, anyway."

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline LoopsAndLogic

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Re: Oil temps and oil coolers
« Reply #297 on: July 17, 2007, 02:35:25 PM »
It's where I drive. All my back roads come to these intersections and lights. Hence, High revving, then stopped. It can't be too good. ??? ???

And for me, it looks COOOL! ;D

I know we have the "other bikes" section. I'm just looking for a faster answer ;)

 My sister won't get off my back with this scooter of hers. I've already spent 7 hours trying to fix it, and I still can't find the problem.

 I've never, not been able to fix such a small problem. It's really ANNOYING!

LL :)
My rides:
75' 76' Honda CB400F Super Sports
86' Honda XR600R for Street Madness
84' Honda Interceptor VF500

Past Rides:
80' Honda CX500C Fully Dressed
81' Honda CB650C very nice!
83' Kawasaki KZ550 A3
78' Hondamatic 400 Hawk
80' 81' 82' Honda GL500 Silverwing Insterstate

Offline svenD

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Re: Oil temps and oil coolers
« Reply #298 on: July 17, 2007, 02:44:36 PM »
Ive heard that "hugging" the bike too much with your knees can interfere with the cooling,dont know if its true though.I also heard that nowaday oil makes it safe to stretch the oil change intervals,even double them-I have with my 550 .Is this bad?very good reading TT.

Ibsen

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Re: Oil temps and oil coolers
« Reply #299 on: July 17, 2007, 03:27:19 PM »