Topic: Marissa's 1972 CB500

[Marissa]

Since this is now out there, I should back track it while it will still make sense to any of those reading.

Here's how I got the engine! It was actually a solid deal (Note: potentially my first solid deal with anything relating to this bike???  ) And the guy who sold it to me gave me a nice back story. The garage was filled with rock and roll memorabilia, a 74 Trans Am, a 750 motor, and a bunch of photos of his dads old hot rods and projects.

I forget roughly how many years this motor has been sitting, but it's been quite a while.


This thing fit perfectly in the trunk of my Fiesta ST!













First off, let's do a little comparison here. The oil filter housing on the CB550:



Oil filter housing on the 500 (Original motor) ((After already cleaning out the oil))



Oil pan on the 550: Comment referencing to the pieces of gasket found in pan.



Oil pan on the 500:





Valve cover off! Was a bit hesitant around this point because 3 of the breather cover bolts seized and stripped. This was kinda scarring me as I was using my typically successful technique. Luckily, it's been smooth sailing from that point on and I haven't come close to stripping anything since, except....





I knew once I saw this that the PO definitely romped on this thing...




This time I got around to checking ring orientation. Cylinder 1 was the only one with a more ideal ring orientation. The rest of them were pretty off or just gaps right on top of each other.



A little leaky! Later on I found a piece of gasket wedged in there; potentially got in there when it was sitting and was wedged into place? Was a bit odd but either way valve lapping is pretty easy for me at this point so I would be doing this regardless.





You can see a "recent" rebuild was done, the valves were pretty darn clean or at least the buildup was quite little. Definitely was running rich though for the time after the rebuild. I want to note how flawless the valve stems were, too, as comparing to the ones on the first 500 head, they had horizontal fine scratches from spinning and I guess overall wear. The valves, valve springs, and the retainers on the 550 head seem really new and in great condition. Sometimes you don't realize how bad and out of shape things were until you see new right in front of your own eyes.



This washer though... Don't know how many times this was reused...




While I was disassembling this, I went ahead and purchased a cheap bore gauge and a honing tool. I took some readings on my CB500 jugs, and decided to practice honing on it. Luckily, the readings were consistent and the cylinders were just barely out of round. I have yet to take readings on the honed version, but hopefully this weekend I can get back to tackling that.



Here's a pic of the current result, you can see there's still staining at TDC, so I still have a ways to go!



*Back to the CB550***

Cylinder jug off, finally seeing some cross hatching! But there is also some scoring marks, a TDC ring, and a couple of areas where the oil ring pattern can be seen on the cylinder wall. Still, let's compare it to the CB500 so we can see the difference:






I did something I knew would be quite risky, but I also knew many people have used this method with success, so I bent the studs and broke them free this way. All went well, except the short stud in the corner of cylinder 1 completely split itself in half and broke apart, except for what's left of it in the case. Luckily, I know I will be able to get it out, I'm soaking it in penetrating oil and I'm going to put it through a dozen heat cycles to help free it. That is something I will jump back to with patience.



You can see the bit that's left here:


My trick for splitting the cases? Excessive amounts of razor blades. Dave saw a couple photos of this engine beforehand and immediately noticed how much sealant I was dealing with. If you take a look back at the head studs you can see red streaks on them from some other sealant used on the head. Sealant everywhere.





Looks solid...

My started break down space. The teddy bears add 5hp.



This has accumulated many more parts now.









I would say next step is removing the rest of the bits from the bottom case, including the kick starter shaft, and then from there go into the soda blasting process. Need to save up money for the primary chain.

[754]

I just read the whole page,
 Think I have good news, your crank likely has no issues once I saw the pic with the primary gear the lightbulb went on...I now Think the heat marks are maybe  from hardening the primary gear , that would make sense.

Also in the other head pics of the second head, I would say it's been surfaced once already, you can see the marks, not usually a problem unless they took lots off.
 If I may ask, don't have to answer, what do you do at the engine shop?  Sure should help you I would think.

[Marissa]

I just read the whole page,
 Think I have good news, your crank likely has no issues once I saw the pic with the primary gear the lightbulb went on...I now Think the heat marks are maybe  from hardening the primary gear , that would make sense.

Also in the other head pics of the second head, I would say it's been surfaced once already, you can see the marks, not usually a problem unless they took lots off.
 If I may ask, don't have to answer, what do you do at the engine shop?  Sure should help you I would think.

Hey 754,

It’s not an engine shop, it’s an auto repair/performance shop. We specialize in servicing European and Japanese vehicles, anything from scheduled maintenance to builds. We send all of the engine parts out to a machine shop we have been working with for 15 years. We disassemble them but typically everything goes to the machine shop. I do marketing and data for the company, so I track our online sales and web traffic. We sell aftermarket parts online like APR and AWE Tuning. We work on a lot of GTIs, Golf R’s, S4s, etc. typically if there is engine work it’s moreso fabrication and adapting the oiling system on a 2.7T to fit a 3.0 oil pan I believe. I’m not into Euro that much so I don’t remember as much of that. We do a lot of suspension work, clutch jobs, turbo upgrades, etc.

[mscuiletti]

Marissa's FiST is stanced... Keep up the good work!

[PeWe]

Aha! Interesting tuning stuff!
I was thinking about an APR kit or similar to my Audi A4 Q Avant 1.8T (B6) 7 years ago. I stayed with std KKK3s turbo, better software, Evolution Racewerks  TIP (alu inlet pipe between air filter and turbo) since std plastic is crap causing boost surge. Milltek sport cat and complete exhaust for earlier spool-up
There  are turbos that look std but improved inside. Need bigger injectors, massive flywheel and sport clutch. An RS4/RS6 might be easier.

https://www.audiforums.com/forum/b5-models-69/1-8t-turbo-upgrade-information-93439/#&gid=1&pid=1

[754]

 Marissa sounds like a cool job.. with lots of support for what you are doing bikewise.

 I bet the shop guys think it's cool you are lapping valves and honing bores..
 Keep it up, good luck.

[Marissa]

Haha Marc, definitely have the FiST cambered out... 

Aha! Interesting tuning stuff!
I was thinking about an APR kit or similar to my Audi A4 Q Avant 1.8T (B6) 7 years ago. I stayed with std KKK3s turbo, better software, Evolution Racewerks  TIP (alu inlet pipe between air filter and turbo) since std plastic is crap causing boost surge. Milltek sport cat and complete exhaust for earlier spool-up
There  are turbos that look std but improved inside. Need bigger injectors, massive flywheel and sport clutch. An RS4/RS6 might be easier.

https://www.audiforums.com/forum/b5-models-69/1-8t-turbo-upgrade-information-93439/#&gid=1&pid=1

Love those Avants! We have many customers that go K04 matched with APR software. We are the largest distributor for APR on the Northeast as well. We do Milltek systems from time to time but AWE is our bread and butter. A bit more expensive but really high quality stuff. We notice that for our daily driving customers, the AWE systems hold up longer with the salt than the milltek systems do.  Personally, I'm upset that AWE has decided to launch systems for Focus RS/ST, but not Fiesta ST. Milltek offers systems for FiST Nonetheless I can't afford an exhaust system anyways, but if I could it would be between Milltek, Cobb, and Mountune.

Sometimes on the side I help with software installation and reflashing. Sometimes it requires removing the circuit board and manually passing the encryption:



But to go back to your point 754, they're pretty indifferent on this stuff. None of them are into motorcycles, or classics really for that matter. It breaks my heart because I grew up loving classics, haha.

[Lostboy Steve]

I've done quite a few of those 2.7 biturbo turbos. Not fun. Still less squirmish about that than pulling my 550 case apart. For what that's worth. You have nerves of steel.

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk

[PeWe]

Mechanical interest, improving the functionality or just turn the vehicles clock back in time. Very addictive hobby. A bike easier to work with, a car need a lift. You have a lot of good tuning parts and priceworthy alternatives in USA.
Honda CB's very fun and easy to work with thanks to this forum and all information written here with helpful members! Tuning parts back in production. CB750 get more and more parts reproduced. Maybe same with CB500/550?

[edintheclods]

Those disco bars are the most disco thing I've seen.

Hi Marissa! My GF inherited a '71 from her Dad and I'm working on it for her. It's been sitting for about 30 years and I'm looking to go in the same direction as you. Eileen is also short, and this will be her first shifter bike, a step up from her Vino125 scooter. Not sure about chopping the tail yet, she might want to keep the original seat since it's in surprisingly good condition. It's good to have those little grab bars for a tie down point so she can take an overnight bag or camping stuff. I all about function over style.

[edintheclods]

I bent the valves on my GS500E when I rebuilt the top end. I think I had the cam rotated 180 degrees and cranked the engine over. All bad. I'll be more careful with this one. 

[Marissa]

Those disco bars are the most disco thing I've seen.

Hi Marissa! My GF inherited a '71 from her Dad and I'm working on it for her. It's been sitting for about 30 years and I'm looking to go in the same direction as you. Eileen is also short, and this will be her first shifter bike, a step up from her Vino125 scooter. Not sure about chopping the tail yet, she might want to keep the original seat since it's in surprisingly good condition. It's good to have those little grab bars for a tie down point so she can take an overnight bag or camping stuff. I all about function over style.

Hi! That’s awesome. Is that bike candy garnet brown as well? It looks like the side covers are off, not sure if you plan on running the bike that way, but it helped me immensely with touching both feet on the ground. You can always have the seat foam shaved about an inch or so to help. If that doesn’t help, you can get shorter shocks to really bring it down, but you can’t alter it too much without modifying the suspension geometry.

Best of luck!

[HondaMan]

Going back to the tranny bearing pictures for a minute...
I see lots of the 500/550 cases that look like that. They were not a tightly controlled in production as the 750 cases, for sure. The 350F was better than the 400F i this regard, too. But, neither seemed to have suffered for it?

The heat-stained cranks are also a common thing in these bikes. I think 754 has it right: they probably got the weights hot when hardening the primary gear.

And, the chewed-up cases from the loose Hy-Vo style primary chains is so common in the 500/550 that I just expect it. A real bad one will have broken off a piece of the case, and this sometimes ends up getting stuck in a tranny gear at some point.

[Marissa]

Going back to the tranny bearing pictures for a minute...
I see lots of the 500/550 cases that look like that. They were not a tightly controlled in production as the 750 cases, for sure. The 350F was better than the 400F i this regard, too. But, neither seemed to have suffered for it?

The heat-stained cranks are also a common thing in these bikes. I think 754 has it right: they probably got the weights hot when hardening the primary gear.

And, the chewed-up cases from the loose Hy-Vo style primary chains is so common in the 500/550 that I just expect it. A real bad one will have broken off a piece of the case, and this sometimes ends up getting stuck in a tranny gear at some point.

Thanks for the feedback HondaMan, I haven't seen this discussed with a lot of people, OR documented well enough for me to just let it slide. Glad to hear some feedback and that it isn't uncommon or that big of an issue regarding the tranny bearings in the case. I'm just gonna keep moving forward with everything.

Since I've been waiting on funds to recover and for powder coating quotes, I started to disassemble the rear end to help with progress.





To remove the rear hub retainer, I drilled out the stakes, tried numerous different ways of breaking it free with no luck, until I tried a punch with a 1lb dead blow hammer. I also excessively sprayed wd40 and PB blaster in the threaded area to help spin it free, and hopefully prevent any damage to the threads in case I didn't drill through the stakes all the way.

Luckily, it looks like the threads were hardly damaged, and my retainer had an arrow engraved into it pointing to the left. I found a thread that indicated this is the direction you spin it in to tighten, not to loosen, so I found out it was reverse threaded early on. It seems like some people think there is a discrepancy with some of the retainers for the 500/550s?



I don't know if it's visible in any of the pictures, but there were actually already flat spots visible in the hub bearings with how the plastic cover was seated. It was actually indented in some areas. Anyways, this was actually almost impossible for me to remove using the (18mm I believe?) trick I found online. I think this was the case because I still had the hub attached to the wheel and tire, and the impact of the socket seemed to reverberate through the wheel instead of being absorbed by the bearing assembly. I heated the hub on both sides multiple times, lubricated them to no end, for about 2 hours or so with no luck. It started to mushroom out the top of the assembly, so I decided to try using a punch instead, and on the second try everything slid out beautifully. So if anyone out there is about to disassemble the rear hub, I would definitely give the punch a try.

Debeading the tire was easy, getting one side of the tire off: also easy. Getting the tire off entirely? I couldn't figure out a way to do it without a proper tire iron and something to hold the wheel locked in place. So I ended up just cutting through it to get it done. A little annoyed with myself because I've mounted and balanced tires dozens of times on cars, figured I would be able to do this, but at the same time I had absolutely no proper equipment for that in my garage. I've been told for mounting tires, you can try getting heavy duty industrial zip ties to hold the tire and tube in place, not sure how much that will work though. But regardless, I think the insides are a little too rusty for my liking. I really want to get a set of Excel Aluminum wheels considering they aren't that much more than new D.I.D chrome wheels. I really want to get some Avon Roadriders as well, I think it would be a perfect combo for nice handling, stability, and looks. That will probably be one of the last things I buy though.



Started to disassemble the swing arm, I have some bronze bushings on the way.



...And ended up tearing the rest of the frame apart and removing the engine. I wanted to make more space and move the old engine out of the way of everything else! Next thing I know I realized it was only a couple more steps to remove the wiring harness, and then only a couple more steps to remove the triple tree and front end...



So this is my life now, haha. I have to clean up the frame a little bit more to prepare for a new electronics tray and to trim the center stand clip things. I do want to get this powder coated, and I want to ask here first before I ask anyone else; has anyone here had their frames powder coated over filler? I used filler to smooth out some of the lines in the back, and if I get this frame coated, the rest of the original paint will need to be stripped/blasted. Should I just get the frame blasted now and start filling it back again, or should I just use paint remover on the rest of the frame, have them clean it before coating, and then see what happens? I know typically most people do powdercoat over small amounts of filler (none is more than 1/5" thick) but as reassurance I'd love to hear your opinions on this.

[DaveBarbier]

Looking good Marissa. I’ve never used the impact trick, I always use heat and a punch. Never fails.

If you’re going to be removing and installing tires, go and get three tire irons. I normally go to the shop near me to have them do it though.

[Marissa]

Thanks for the tips Cal and Dave!

To start... Does anyone know where these go before I start scavenging through the manual in hopes to find an accurate drawing depicting them? These must have came off my cases when I was splitting them, I put the empty cases on their blankets and when I turned around these were staring back at me on the table.



Second, I ordered some parts from David Silver Spares, including an OEM primary chain, which came in the mail like this:






I sent an email over to them over the long weekend, and began trying to clean it under the assumption they were going to say that's the condition of their NOS items. Luckily, they sent me an email back yesterday that they will send me a new one, so I have to mail this one back. I got it cleaned up alright, but there was still a lot of rust on the inside that I wasn't able to get. I'm happy that they're taking this back because I'm going to have everything as clean as a whistle for install because I really don't want to cut corners.

(a photo of how far I got with it in case you're curious, (I used parts cleaner and a brass bristle brush, followed by WD40 and more scrubbing!)

You can see it's still pretty grimy. Here's a comparison of that with the old chain and all it's slack:


I finally got to drop off the cases today at the powdercoater (Yay!) but as soon as I put them in his hands I realized I didn't pull the last bit of the seized head stud yet and I'm quite upset I managed to rush and forget about that. Nonetheless I can always remove it after but I'll have to be extra mindful of the finish. The color it's getting is Bengal Silver I believe (I know it's Tiger Coating) which is pretty darn close to VHT Flat Aluminum, but with a tad more flake. It's what he had in stock and the difference is hardly noticeable so I'm excited to see the turnout.

That said, I brought up the question of having him blast the frame, me using the high temp filler, and then getting it coated, and he doesn't seem too keen on that, so honestly I might just paint the frame myself and avoid that if possible. It's not 100% what I wanted to do, but it will be more cost friendly and I don't mind trying it for a season. If for some reason I get excessive chips I can always start from the bottom again and get it powder coated another year.

I moved onto the swing arm to remove the bushings and get it disassembled for powder coat as well (Originally wanted to drop it off with the frame) and the bushing removal wasn't too bad, but it was time consuming. I used a punch alone with a torch and PB blaster to break the first one free, but after a while I had to add a socket to it or else the punch would hit the swing arm. I can't tell if I broke it or if this bike had a split bushing?





These shock bushings though are killing me... I put these through like 5 soaks of PB Blaster, I heated these things up to no end, I tried using sockets and a vise, I tried punching them out, I tried the hammer and socket, these things didn't do anything but fall apart with the rubber centers. Even after I removed those and cleaned it off these things are stuck and I'm not sure what other method to try now. Please save me from this mess, haha.



Next on the list is likely polishing up the rear hub, cleaning, rebuilding it, I have the parts and now that I'll be waiting roughly two weeks for the cases to come back I figure that's the next best thing to work on.

[DurangoCB]

Best thread going right now on these forums, if you ask me.  Love following along.

[HondaMan]

When I get those rusted-in shock bushing "shells" like that, I put a little grinder wheel into my Dremel and grind a thin spot all the way across the inside face. Then I can pry up an edge with a punch a little to fold the metal ring, so it loses its death-grip on the hole...

[DaveBarbier]

That primary chain cleaned up better than I thought. Good thing they’re sending you another one, but I bet if you soaked it in a rust remover it would be useable. That’s worst case scenario though.

My initial thought for those rings are thrust washers and spacer for the clutch. I can’t think of any other place they would be.

A benefit of painting over powder coating the frame is that it’ll be easier to repaint scratches and chips if that ever happens.

For the shock bushings, try what Mark suggests but a different take is taking a small hacksaw and splitting the metal ring to help release it’s grip. Same principal.

[HondaMan]

The original swingarm bushings were phenolic, with a felt seal ring and separate phenolic outer "bush" (as Honda calls it) to bear on the frame. The replacement bushings that appeared in the 1990s were the ones you have now, and they EAT the swingarm collars alive. They are also the Devil's next kin to remove, as you have found: they are a cooked MIMs-metal part.

Whatever you do for new bushings: there must be 0.0004"-0.0010" of collar sticking out of the arm (sum both sides) to butt into the frame. Torquing the long bolt reduces this close to zero, and this action cross-stresses the center section of the frame against the rear of the engine to provide the torsional stiffness needed directly in the middle of the bike. When you torque the long bolt to about 25 ft-lbs, this shortens the collar about 0.0004", at 40 ft-lbs it shortens about 0.0007", hence the tolerances. Also: the clearance between the collar and bushing's ID must be not more than 0.0012" or the rear wheel will be able to move side-to-side after greasing. I usually set them up tighter, more like 0.0004"-0.0008".

[zeffcat]

I really want to get a set of Excel Aluminum wheels considering they aren't that much more than new D.I.D chrome wheels. I really want to get some Avon Roadriders as well, I think it would be a perfect combo for nice handling, stability, and looks. That will probably be one of the last things I buy though.

My rims looked a bit worse than this and I had them blasted and powdercoated black along with my frame and they turned out wonderful! Just an option if you want to save a few hundred on new wheels.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Excel shouldered, polished rims on my beater 750:

imagejpg2_zps47fc9778 by Donald Leonhardt, on Flickr

imagejpg10_zpsa46185b1 by Donald Leonhardt, on Flickr

imagejpg2_zps88e20f74 by Donald Leonhardt, on Flickr

Very easy to keep clean, too.

I ended up swaping out the Spitfires for BT-45s -- much better grip. The grip on the BT45s is as good as the RoadRiders, but the Roadriders did not like the grooved concrete freeway pavement and would sometimes wobble.

001_zps0ke3gb5v by Donald Leonhardt, on Flickr

[Marissa]

Excel shouldered, polished rims on my beater 750:

imagejpg2_zps47fc9778 by Donald Leonhardt, on Flickr

imagejpg10_zpsa46185b1 by Donald Leonhardt, on Flickr

imagejpg2_zps88e20f74 by Donald Leonhardt, on Flickr

Very easy to keep clean, too.

I ended up swaping out the Spitfires for BT-45s -- much better grip. The grip on the BT45s is as good as the RoadRiders, but the Roadriders did not like the grooved concrete freeway pavement and would sometimes wobble.

001_zps0ke3gb5v by Donald Leonhardt, on Flickr

My rims looked a bit worse than this and I had them blasted and powdercoated black along with my frame and they turned out wonderful! Just an option if you want to save a few hundred on new wheels.

Argggghh. I love love love the Excels. But honestly it's a solid idea to run the current wheels and just clean them up. I think we're forgetting that I'll still be a new rider when this is all said and done, and I need to cut costs for stuff like aesthetics, especially if I accidentally curb it or do something silly. Ugh, the struggle! I really want this bike to look like a piece of art when I'm done, but I have to step back and realize I'm on limited budget and experience for now. Once I get my feet wet and a full season in then maybe I can justify doing more aesthetic and performance modifications.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Fair enough.  You will probably spend quite a bit less than $500 in new, shiny, polished aluminum Excel rims by just blasting and powdercoating your existing steel rims. 

If you rims are that rusty, however,  I would replace them.

[MauiK3]

Marissa
If you reuse the steel rims I would suggest at least a new set of stainless spokes from Buchanan. Don't want to rely on corroded spokes.
Looks like a great project.
On my K3 I had the frame media blasted and I painted it with POR 15 with a top coat of their chassis black. POR15 is near bullet proof and easily touched up in the event of a nick.