Author Topic: Harley to buy Ducati?  (Read 6536 times)

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Offline Geeto67

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Re: Harley to buy Ducati?
« Reply #50 on: July 03, 2017, 04:49:15 AM »
It's hard to not laugh when "Harley" and "road race engine" are used in the same sentence. Eric Buell was the only one who came close to being competitive, and as soon as he made the podium, he went out of business.  After the Japanese entered the racing scene, Harley couldn't keep up, and stopped trying.  Unfortunately, the golden age of motorcycle racing is gone. Today's racing is good, but just not the same.


In terms of racing, the two strokes killed everyone, not just Harley. They were unreliable, handled like flung feces, but they were ungodly fast when they were on and the brits and Harley couldn't touch them. Rayborn died in December 1973 and the first tz700s hit the circuit in the 1974 racing season, the combination of those two events was the death knell for HD and everything else 4 stroke at top level racing (at least until the early 2000s).

In road race classes that favored 4 stroke twins (like BOTT), the XR was competitive well into the 1980's in privateer hands with bikes like lucifer's hammer and TO's xr909 holding their own against ducati, guzzi, and BMW.

But racing isn't road bikes, and HD had a competitive performance product in the sportster until about 1976, when the rest of the field caught up to the KZ900 in terms of speed and left things like the sportster and what dregs remains of the British motorcycle industry behind. But it wasn't performance that put those bikes in the ground, it was reliability. HD had many internal culture problems before AMF bought them, and while AMF takes a lot of blame for poor product quality the AMF bikes were actually better than the ones that came just before. Engineering, R&D, production, and racing all ran separately and none of them communicated with each other, and were antagonistic about it. There are many many many stories about how production would source a part inferior to engineerings specs and use it without consulting engineering or engineering overwriting parameters without regard to ease of production and the result was a brand new bike that didn't run and had a recall on it before the customer picked it up and cost too much to build in the first place.

I don't generally like Harley's, and I despise (yet respect) Harley "lifestyle" marketing, but I have nothing but awe for Dick O'Brien and the Harley racing department from the 50's to the 90's. He took a spit sandwich of a department that had been gutted by its former leadership (literally the former racing director took everything when he left - or so the legend goes) and had only one competitive but antique racing design, the KR flathead, and made a force to be reckoned with on road courses out of guys like Carol Reiswebber and Cal Rayborn.

In terms of Erik Buell and podiums, EB was NEVER head of the racing department nor a factory rider for HD. He was an engineer first (worked on the nova v4 project) and then came back as the head of Buell under HD, most everything else he did he did as a privateer. After Dick left HD in the 80's (he still consulted after) the HD racing department didn't get their footing again till the 1990's under Steve Scheibe and the VR1000 racing project. If there were any HD podiums to be had the thanks goes to Steve and not Erik whose role at HD was to sell performance road bikes.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 05:15:52 AM by Geeto67 »
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Harley to buy Ducati?
« Reply #51 on: July 03, 2017, 03:19:32 PM »
And of course, let's not forget the mighty Harley XR750, the world's most successful dirt track racer. I met a guy recently who wants to sell his XR1000 which isn't really in the same class, but I want it, just the same. I better wait until I've finished my 1969 K0 build, so I can sell it and buy the Harley.....;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Harley to buy Ducati?
« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2017, 03:23:18 PM »
Ooh, and for the Harley fans, google the new XG750 flat tracker, it looks wicked! ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline MoMo

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Re: Harley to buy Ducati?
« Reply #53 on: July 03, 2017, 06:17:42 PM »
Ooh, and for the Harley fans, google the new XG750 flat tracker, it looks wicked! ;D



even the regular street one looks decent

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Harley to buy Ducati?
« Reply #54 on: July 03, 2017, 07:40:41 PM »
And of course, let's not forget the mighty Harley XR750, the world's most successful dirt track racer. I met a guy recently who wants to sell his XR1000 which isn't really in the same class, but I want it, just the same. I better wait until I've finished my 1969 K0 build, so I can sell it and buy the Harley.....;D
you talkin' bout the Iron head based cafe racer xr1000?  I would love to have one of those but don't sell the KO, sell that stupid ass Sportster and get an XR1200...I'm sure you know its the same engine but it has legit Buell cylinder heads and ergonomics that actually allow you to ride the damn thing like a bike should be ridden.  Better yet, just get a Buell.
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Offline 754

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Re: Harley to buy Ducati?
« Reply #55 on: July 03, 2017, 07:49:46 PM »
The XR 1000 has iron barrels i think, alloy heads XR style rear facing carbs..off to get a pic..
A former riding buddy got one new, built a very cool tracker.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 07:51:30 PM by 754 »
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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Harley to buy Ducati?
« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2017, 08:24:33 PM »
#$%*, didn't know about that one.  Was thinking of this one
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Offline 754

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Re: Harley to buy Ducati?
« Reply #57 on: July 03, 2017, 08:45:17 PM »
There is also the full on 2 stroke Aermacchi twin roadracers, i think they won a few races...
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Harley to buy Ducati?
« Reply #58 on: July 04, 2017, 01:39:23 AM »
#$%*, didn't know about that one.  Was thinking of this one
And of course, let's not forget the mighty Harley XR750, the world's most successful dirt track racer. I met a guy recently who wants to sell his XR1000 which isn't really in the same class, but I want it, just the same. I better wait until I've finished my 1969 K0 build, so I can sell it and buy the Harley.....;D
you talkin' bout the Iron head based cafe racer xr1000?  I would love to have one of those but don't sell the KO, sell that stupid ass Sportster and get an XR1200...I'm sure you know its the same engine but it has legit Buell cylinder heads and ergonomics that actually allow you to ride the damn thing like a bike should be ridden.  Better yet, just get a Buell.

Ha ha, thanks Sean, I test rode a new Buell XB9 when they first came out, but I didn't like it. The engine was great of course, but it was too tall, steered too quickly, and the ergonomics were just "awkward". I took it back and told the salesman my concerns, and he agreed with me. I'm not surprised that Buell went broke.

I won't be getting rid of my "Supid Ass Sportster" in a hurry, I've got several bikes that are faster, but that's not why I bought it, it's a fun bike to ride, and I enjoy riding it at 60 MPH as much as I do riding my RC51 at 120. Horses for courses........ ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: Harley to buy Ducati?
« Reply #59 on: July 04, 2017, 03:36:08 AM »
They are not all air cooled now.. What is odd timing ?

Some have liquid cooled heads, yes. Big Bang firing order. You know what I meant frank. ;)


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Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: Harley to buy Ducati?
« Reply #60 on: July 04, 2017, 03:40:58 AM »
I wasnt talking roadrace engine, some new big twins have liquid cooling.
 I suppose you could call the 45 degree motor odd..like BMW boxer is odd to Japan bike owners.... Just dont forget that it worked well for both makes for 80 years (yes I know the boxer is an inherently smooth design)
 The 45 degree motor lends itself to custom bikes..better than most..a lot of 90 degree motors look awkward. On an open engine bike..
They look and sound great. They even perform well for what they are...

On the other hand, I've seen some running on nitro methane and they somehow keep them together.... for a run or two.


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Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: Harley to buy Ducati?
« Reply #61 on: July 04, 2017, 03:47:27 AM »
#$%*, didn't know about that one.  Was thinking of this one
And of course, let's not forget the mighty Harley XR750, the world's most successful dirt track racer. I met a guy recently who wants to sell his XR1000 which isn't really in the same class, but I want it, just the same. I better wait until I've finished my 1969 K0 build, so I can sell it and buy the Harley.....;D
you talkin' bout the Iron head based cafe racer xr1000?  I would love to have one of those but don't sell the KO, sell that stupid ass Sportster and get an XR1200...I'm sure you know its the same engine but it has legit Buell cylinder heads and ergonomics that actually allow you to ride the damn thing like a bike should be ridden.  Better yet, just get a Buell.

Ha ha, thanks Sean, I test rode a new Buell XB9 when they first came out, but I didn't like it. The engine was great of course, but it was too tall, steered too quickly, and the ergonomics were just "awkward". I took it back and told the salesman my concerns, and he agreed with me. I'm not surprised that Buell went broke.

I won't be getting rid of my "Supid Ass Sportster" in a hurry, I've got several bikes that are faster, but that's not why I bought it, it's a fun bike to ride, and I enjoy riding it at 60 MPH as much as I do riding my RC51 at 120. Horses for courses........ ;D

Twitchy as #$%*, happy you agree.

 If I ever do anything with a buell again, it will be to take an xb engine and slam it into a hardtail frame and have a ridiculously fast chopper with similar handling if not better than the Xb. ;)


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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Harley to buy Ducati?
« Reply #62 on: July 04, 2017, 04:17:34 AM »
my best bud has an xb9s...and I have to ride it often.  The thing is a total hoot, wheelies at will, relative sport bike comfort with the sit up and beg bars, but yeah, I don't think it handles well either, but damn, it's a ton of fun and I could ride it all day if he'd let me...gotta be the best brakes of any bike ever
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Offline Geeto67

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Re: Harley to buy Ducati?
« Reply #63 on: July 04, 2017, 05:07:19 AM »
The XR 1000 has iron barrels i think, alloy heads XR style rear facing carbs..off to get a pic..
A former riding buddy got one new, built a very cool tracker.

The XR1000 uses a stock sportster bottom end rather than an xr750 bottom end (xr750s use different bearings even though the case castings are the same). The barrels are iron instead of aluminum, have more fins, and use through bolts from the head instead of the traditional HD base bolts. The head casting is derived from the xr750 but uses different valves, guides, and rockers. The whole setup uses stock sportster q cams. The pistons are aluminum.

In the end it was a different animal than either the xr750 or a stock sporty. It weight biased to the left, had overheating issues, and sometimes lunched it's gearbox. It also vibrates like a mother but that's because the XR750s do that as well. Other than than it's an interesting bike.

The XR 1000 has iron barrels i think, alloy heads XR style rear facing carbs..off to get a pic..
A former riding buddy got one new, built a very cool tracker.
There is also the full on 2 stroke Aermacchi twin roadracers, i think they won a few races...

Dave Roper still rides one. The HD sprints were CRTTs and the hardtails were flat trackers while the suspended ones were road racers. The Aermacchi Ala D'Oro (gold wing) was the basis for the sprint and is a well known privateer racing platform from the early 60's to the 1980's. Kevin Cameron has a chapter on them in his book about the greatest motorcycle racing engines.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 07:00:24 AM by Geeto67 »
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Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: Harley to buy Ducati?
« Reply #64 on: July 04, 2017, 05:13:58 AM »
my best bud has an xb9s...and I have to ride it often.  The thing is a total hoot, wheelies at will, relative sport bike comfort with the sit up and beg bars, but yeah, I don't think it handles well either, but damn, it's a ton of fun and I could ride it all day if he'd let me...gotta be the best brakes of any bike ever

Yeah, it's raw. I took mine on a few trips and it was  brutal on my body.


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Offline 754

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Re: Harley to buy Ducati?
« Reply #65 on: July 04, 2017, 07:02:52 AM »
This 2 stroke ..The Deeley museum had one..
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Offline Geeto67

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Re: Harley to buy Ducati?
« Reply #66 on: July 04, 2017, 02:29:34 PM »
This 2 stroke ..The Deeley museum had one..

I don't know why my brain skipped over "2stroke" in your last post. The RR250. It was a real budget race bike in that there wasn't any money to develop an engine so the thing robbed yamaha's TD parts bin for most of the internals. Renzo Pasolini had great success on these bikes before his untimely death, to which Walter Villa continued renzo's 250 GP successes on his Niko Bakker framed RR250.

The RR250 is a study that when you have smart people you don't need a lot of money to be competitive in racing. The RR is lighter than the mechanically superior TZ250 and that is what gave it enough of an edge to beat it to the post in the mid 70's.
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Offline Killer Canary

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Re: Harley to buy Ducati?
« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2017, 09:01:58 PM »
Erik Buell did fantastic work modifying Sportster engines, and Harley owners worldwide have benefited from his hard work with modern sporties that are producing excellent power compared to the pre-Buell bikes. The problem with Buell's own bikes, was that no-one bought them, possibly because it was hard to convince sports bike riders that they should buy a modern sports bike equipped with a 60 year old pushrod engine that only made "moderate" power (for a sports bike) when they could buy a Japanese, German or Italian bike that could run rings around it for similar money or less, and even though he finally dropped the Sportster engine for modern Rotax engines for the last generation of Buell's, aesthetically, they were ugly fcukers, and just didn't sell. If they did, you'd still be able to buy one. 

This! 
HD survived by creating and selling an image and have found themselves slaves to that image, locked into that ancient V-twin forever.
Well, if HD does buy Ducati maybe Ducati can make Harleys interesting.
harley didn't create the image.
The one percenters did.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 09:23:15 PM by Killer Canary »
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Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: Harley to buy Ducati?
« Reply #68 on: July 07, 2017, 03:00:38 AM »
Erik Buell did fantastic work modifying Sportster engines, and Harley owners worldwide have benefited from his hard work with modern sporties that are producing excellent power compared to the pre-Buell bikes. The problem with Buell's own bikes, was that no-one bought them, possibly because it was hard to convince sports bike riders that they should buy a modern sports bike equipped with a 60 year old pushrod engine that only made "moderate" power (for a sports bike) when they could buy a Japanese, German or Italian bike that could run rings around it for similar money or less, and even though he finally dropped the Sportster engine for modern Rotax engines for the last generation of Buell's, aesthetically, they were ugly fcukers, and just didn't sell. If they did, you'd still be able to buy one. 

This! 
HD survived by creating and selling an image and have found themselves slaves to that image, locked into that ancient V-twin forever.
Well, if HD does buy Ducati maybe Ducati can make Harleys interesting.
harley didn't create the image.
The one percenters did.

Very true. Indian is still safe.


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