Topic: Help with VINs - how do I know if they are matching? (75 CB550K1)

[Ezile]

On a 1975 CB550K1 is there any way to know if the Engine and Frame are matching original?

http://www.sohc4.net/cb550-model-guide/

According to this they are in an entirely different format.  I had always thought that the CB I owned had been rebuilt and was a Frankenstein bike because the history was a genuine mystery, PO knew nothing.

When I looked the VINs up the frame and engine both fall into the 1975 CB550K1 range.  Is there anyway I can check to see if they are "matching" from the factory?

[Deltarider]

No, you can't. They never match. BTW, the model guide you mention is not Honda and contains errors. For instance there never was a model CB550F3. The CB550F2 was the last of the 'F' models. It was marketed over several years. Furthermore the picture of the CB550K2 is not correct.
The only reliable (genuine Honda) source is the first few pages in the Parts List. BTW, they're all here: http://www.honda4fun.com/materiale-documentazione-tecnica/parts-list/parts-list-cb550 Simply compare your engine- and frame number with the numbers listed in the first few pages of the Parts List and there can be no confusion. The carbnumbers and area codes are also listed there. Once checked, write it down and you know for the rest of your life where you can find the info that concerns your specific bike.

[Ezile]

EDIT: I see you've updated your post.

I found that link in another post and my engine/frame/carbs are all CB550K1.  I've owned my bike for almost 2 years now and my mind was just blown.  When I looked up the VIN after I got it I swore it was a 1977 frame and 1975 engine.  But I just triple checked again and suddenly my frankenbike is not a frankenbike at all - it's all Cb550k1 (Frame, Engine, Carbs) but it does have a 4 into 1 exhaust unfortunately, not the stock.

[Geeto67]

does it matter?

There is this obsession with "Numbers Matching" that comes from the old American Car hobby, but really all numbers matching does is alleviate a need for paperwork proving that your engine left the factory with the chassis. It doesn't guarantee the vehicle wasn't beat up, it doesn't insure that it will run well, it just creates a partially fictional narrative that things that are taken care of are better than things that are used.

Your honda wasn't numbers matching since new. You didn't get any previous history paperwork. Congrats, welcome to the club of the majority of old honda motorcycle owners. Does the bike run well? yes - then that is as valuable as it is going to get - go out have adventures, create real stories, document them yourself, so when you sell the bike later on you have a real narrative detailing a life of adventure.

eff numbers matching, I want a relic of adventure.

[Ezile]

lol - I received that response on another forum, I guess I hang around too many American classic car people.

In the end it doesn't matter at all truthfully - but it does change potential plans for the bike.  Now that it could be less of a frankenbike than I originally thought I'm more inclined to find a 4-2-4 exhaust, and find a tank/side covers that are original to the bike because you can decode the vin for the color too which is neat.

Right now it has a 4 into 1 exhaust and a custom paint job (which I am not dissatisfied with, but I plan to own the bike forever and knowing myself I will eventually want to do something to it to change the appearance).  I could see myself in 10 years wanting to get it more to a stock setup and it would just be "cool" to have factory matching carbs, engine, and frame to go along with a stock-restore.

[CycleRanger]

"A grumpy old timer" indeed! 

It's good to be familiar with serial numbers for a lot of reasons other than just desiring "numbers matching".
It can help when identifying the parts that are on your bike and what parts will or won't work with your bike.
It can also be a clue as to what kind of life the bike had and how well it was maintained.

For example, the 550 I'm currently working on is a '74 K0 with a '77 engine.
Because I was familiar with the numbers I was able to tell the PO the engine wasn't original and used that knowledge to
knock a few bucks off the price! 
BUT this also means that I don't how many miles are on the engine. (yes, I know speedos can also be changed.)

Does it matter that the bike isn't totally original?  In this case, to me, no, because I'm not planning on keeping this bike.
It really depends on what you're looking for in a bike.
If you just want a bike to chop up and customize then numbers mean nothing.
If you're looking for a good example to restore with an eye on future value then originality matters. (imho)

and find a tank/side covers that are original to the bike because you can decode the vin for the color too which is neat.

No, you can't. The VIN's on these bikes do not contain color information. Unless you can find some evidence on the tank there's no way to know what color it was originally.

[Ezile]

No, you can't. The VIN's on these bikes do not contain color information. Unless you can find some evidence on the tank there's no way to know what color it was originally.

Well dang.  I thought I read that in the Honda part's book list.

Oh well, I have a 50/50 chance since it was only Orange or Green for 1975.

[Geeto67]

"A grumpy old timer" indeed! 

It's good to be familiar with serial numbers for a lot of reasons other than just desiring "numbers matching".
It can help when identifying the parts that are on your bike and what parts will or won't work with your bike.

I am not saying there isn't a value in the numbers by themselves as a stand alone. Of course this has value, but it is not tied to the engine number matching the frame number.

I can also be a clue as to what kind of life the bike had and how well it was maintained.

eh....maybe if you had other evidence it "might" support that, but again it isn't proof of use. My GTO has numbers matching engine and a documented warranty replacement transmission from 1968. Are the numbers going to tell me about the 2 rebuilds I have done on it or the half a dozen cams I have had in it. How about the drag strip passes? Burnouts? or times I have ballooned the torque converter into failure (3 if you want to know)? How about all the street racing I did with it 20 years ago? Or the times I jumped a median with it? or how many times I have overheated it (too many!)? From the outside it just looks like an unrestored 85,000 mile 1967 GTO with lots of documentation and numbers matching drivetrian, but on my desk is a pic from the staging lanes of now defunct westhampton drag strip. But tell me again how my numbers matching is going to tell you all of that. 

If you're looking for a good example to restore with an eye on future value then originality matters. (imho)

yes but for old hondas the numbers are meaningless once you get into the correct year. They add no value to the price of the vehicle. The problem is people incorrectly assume they have value and sometimes you can sucker them into paying more. How much is "original" and what you can prove for these bikes is very different from the standards that are in the American car hobby. It means a paper trail of ownership, preferably with mileage noted, maybe photographs. Without it you can't prove "originality" you can only prove "correctness" and correctness can be fabricated. Correctness does not equal originality. Is it totally worthless? probably not - there are some people that value correctness, but it is a smaller market and isn't the same value as originality. 

[CycleRanger]

eh....maybe if you had other evidence it "might" support that, but again it isn't proof of use. My GTO has numbers matching engine and a documented warranty replacement transmission from 1968. Are the numbers going to tell me about the 2 rebuilds I have done on it or the half a dozen cams I have had in it. How about the drag strip passes? Burnouts? or times I have ballooned the torque converter into failure (3 if you want to know)? How about all the street racing I did with it 20 years ago? Or the times I jumped a median with it? or how many times I have overheated it (too many!)? From the outside it just looks like an unrestored 85,000 mile 1967 GTO with lots of documentation and numbers matching drivetrian, but on my desk is a pic from the staging lanes of now defunct westhampton drag strip. But tell me again how my numbers matching is going to tell you all of that. 

That's why I said can be a clue. Nothing is for sure, that's for sure.

You bring up a good point about "original" vs. "correct".
There's a lot of parts that I would generally prefer not to be original on a bike, such as rubber, bearings, chain, tires, etc. 
But, with these bikes, unless it's a sandcast or very early bike I don't think  "correct" vs. "original" makes much difference.  (Well, good original paint is nice if you can find it.)
Anyway,

[Geeto67]

You bring up a good point about "original" vs. "correct".
There's a lot of parts that I would generally prefer not to be original on a bike, such as rubber, bearings, chain, tires, etc. 

100% agree, but let me tell you from my experience with corvettes people pay extra for old date coded weather-striping still on the car if it means they can pull bloomington survivor and benchmark awards. Again, the car could have been beat to crap for 20K miles, had something minor break, been parked for 30 years, brought back to running condition and people will think it's a well cared for original when in reality it was beat to crap and neglected. Perception is sometimes our own worst enemy.

But, with these bikes, unless it's a sandcast or very early bike I don't think  "correct" vs. "original" makes much difference.  (Well, good original paint is nice if you can find it.)

I think it is all in how you sell it. A correct bike is usually sold as a "restored" accurate motorcycle. An original bike is sold with a story where the owner produces things like the selling dealer, the bill of sale, etc. Even when we are talking about $1500 motorcycles, a seller producing paperwork that he is the first owner, and service records, and registrations is much harder to negotiate with. Very few bikes are actually a documented "original" bike, but many "correct" bikes are sold as "original" because people just don't know what they are talking about. Maybe some are also original, maybe they aren't, but if they can't prove it they'll never know. Focus on how it works, a good riding bike inspires more confidence than a number ever will.

Having a stock bike is nice, having a modified bike is nice. figure out what you like to ride and ride it that way. worrying about numbers that keep you from enjoying it in the way you know you would enjoy it best - that's the least optimal. Now keep in mind, this isn't a license to be stupid and destroy parts you should otherwise keep, It's easy enough to put the correct carbs in a plastic bag with a desiccant pack and put them on a shelf, while you run kehin CR's. As long as you don't do anything irreversible it's fine.

[CycleRanger]

Having a stock bike is nice, having a modified bike is nice. figure out what you like to ride and ride it that way. worrying about numbers that keep you from enjoying it in the way you know you would enjoy it best - that's the least optimal. Now keep in mind, this isn't a license to be stupid and destroy parts you should otherwise keep, It's easy enough to put the correct carbs in a plastic bag with a desiccant pack and put them on a shelf, while you run kehin CR's. As long as you don't do anything irreversible it's fine.

There's the essence of the discussion. And you're right.
Personally I prefer a "stock" appearance but I do upgrade things like the electronics on my bikes but not in any way that can't easily be changed back to "stock".
But "stock" vs. "modified/custom" is a whole 'nother discussion. 
Anyway, I think we've beaten this this thread-jack to death.