Author Topic: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup  (Read 4536 times)

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Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« on: September 03, 2017, 11:28:45 pm »
I was texting a fellow forum member the other day about my project F model bike. The subject veered towards interest in getting a street stock CB750 class added to the super eliminator class at the Manufacturers Cup drag racing series. The idea is to develop a set of basic rules so that street type, short wheelbase CB750's can compete in a category to set their own national records. Currently, Bill Benton and i compete in the category of super street(CB/SS) that allows for almost any modifications as long as the bike doesn't use a lockup clutch or any power adders. Wheelie bars or drag slicks are also excluded but air shifters and extended swingarms are okay.

In talking more about a street stock class, the thought would be to make it easier for an Sohc bike to be competitive with a set of rules whereby the bike should basically be period correct with spoke type wheels, no air shifting or shift kills allowed, stock length arms, aftermarket exhausts being okay, no ballast allowed including weighted forks etc. The bike would have to have a working charging system, be self starting, working tail and head lights. We discussed how to categorize cc limits. This is where the tough part kicks in for me. It'll be difficult to police the size of an engine since no one will want to agree to an engine tear down, trackside. The honor system could be used but lets be honest, we all want to win by any means necessary. This is an item that would need further discussion for parity.

I'm just opening this topic up for input. The admin for super eliminator has been contacted about this potential category and he's willing to listen to our proposal. If no one on the forum expresses an interest, we'll let this opportunity die on the vine. Lets hear your thoughts guys.

By the way, I've got a stock K8 collecting dust that I would enter in this class if it came to fruition. Engine size?? Depends on the rules should this move forward.

Offline 754

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Re: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2017, 09:33:17 am »
Limit size at 1300 cc,s and nobody has to teardown...
Besides should take less that 10 minutes to fluid check one cylinder on a sohc..
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 11:19:30 am by 754 »
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2017, 10:14:54 am »
1000cc. ET. This basically eliminates the big boys with large strokers. Plus I doubt anyone would take a RC block and down size it. I have Lesters. Why would wheels matter? BTW I have a trailer on the way tomorrow  ;)

Or stock displacement with only above cylinder work allowed. It should be relatively obvious with a bore scope and the ET. 

I'd love to see something like this but it's not 'back in the day'. Seems it would be a lot to accomplish for yet a smallish turnout. Perhaps 2 or 3 rounds max. Seems like this would need to be run on a Thursday/Friday test and tune day not to get in the way of the high numbers that race on Sat and Sun. There really couldn't be a purse unless someone sponsors or all the riders ante up into a hat.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

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Re: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2017, 12:25:02 pm »
Keep the comments coming. We can either give birth to, or kill the category right on this thread.

Offline gschuld

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Re: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2017, 02:09:51 pm »
It's easy to simply have a 1300cc limit, easiest on the inspecting/verifying, and simple.

But a SIGNIFICANT amount of the reason behind this issue would be to attract more people to go out and race.  There are thousands of street legal cb750s out there.  And with various amounts of performance mods.

If there was only one class with essentially unlimited displacement, no one with a nicely built 836 is going to be very interested once a 120RWHP monster engined bike shows up.  Plus, a 1300cc race motor in a factory wheelbase chassis sounds a little sketchy to me.

If, for example, the tried and true Bonneville oil volume method(good enough for world record verifications) works to measure one cylinder easily through the spark plug hole (no teardown required), this seems to be a reasonably simple way to handle displacement classes.  Just like Bonneville, only a safety inspection to go race.  Only need to do a brief displacement measurement if you break a record. 

So say a:

736-836 class
836-915 class
915- whatever the class wants to cap it as class. 

If a displacement check only for a broken record is too burdensome, you could cut it off by carbs.  Say a class for factory carbs, and everyone else.  But this penalizes some small displacement bikes with aftermarket carbs and gives unfair advantage to bigger engine bikes that run bored out and blended factory carbs.

I like the idea of being able to bring people new to drag racing out with their street bikes.  Get a taste for it, and maybe have a shot at setting an ATTAINABLE record amongst your peers on similar equipment.  Perhaps it would inspire others to build a dedicated racer at some point.  Plus, a new racer would be able to enter BOTH the Eliminator bracket and the Street ET class at the same event for more seat time.

Man Cup already has the Super Street class records.  Frankie and Billy are doing battle on lower mid 10 second bikes at 125mph with long swingarms and 180 series sticky tires.  Great stuff.  Perhaps others will join them, and perhaps this opportunity to create a set of national record index classes could inspire more to participate and have some fun.

I can't imagine any reason to ban aftermarket wheels as long they are used in sizes that people agree on per class.

Overall, I like the idea ;)


George


« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 02:23:37 pm by gschuld »

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Re: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2017, 02:22:16 pm »
As to the turnout, you may be right Jerry. But at least if a person isn't interested in bracket racing and wants to go balls to the walls, this one way to achieve that goal. Understand that similar bikes will not run head to head during eliminations. You will be paired on a ladder based on the national index for your category in relation to the other categories. You could be paired with a 9 second Harley Davidson or a 7 second two stroke. Your dial will be the index for your category. Handicapped start. Again, this is about setting records. Run on the index, beat the guy across the line and go on to win the overall event. I've gotten down to the semis finals a fees times myself.

1000 cc is what I was thinking on the limits too.

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Re: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2017, 02:32:20 pm »
I think we do need to limit the rear tire size regardless to the cc restrictions. It'll make launches more difficult when combined with the short wheelbase. It'll be a riders class versus a big displacement horsepower battle.

« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 02:36:28 pm by dragracer »

Offline gschuld

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Re: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2017, 02:35:34 pm »
Regarding turnout.  Sure, I wouldn't be expecting a flood of cb750 owners to race.  The nice thing here is an opportunity to create something attainable to shoot for, and there are TONS of separate classes that run together in the Eliminator series.  So it's not like if there isn't at least 6 different cb750s that show up, it causes a problem.

The more the merrier, but attendance isn't going to make or break it the way the Eliminator series is structured.  Everyone in the class is trying to break the record for their class.  FWIW, any new record would be set during the 3 qualification runs before the ladder series starts.

George

Offline gschuld

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Re: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2017, 02:38:08 pm »
I think we do need to limit the rear tire size regardless to the cc restrictions. It'll make launches more difficult when combined with the short wheelbase. It'll be a riders class versus a big displacement horsepower battle.

Makes sense to me.  Put a 180 Shinko Hookup under a factory swingarm bike(somehow) with a big bore motor.  Sounds like a recipe for crazy wheelies..... ;D:o

A 130 series DOT street tire on an 18" rear rim sounds like a reasonable limit. Easily fits on a factory swingarm and clears brake stays and drive chains with little effort.

Bill Baxter was consulted on this.  He runs the Super Eliminator thing and us very supportive of adding cb750 specific classes.  He was asked about street stock, and this limited to DEAD STOCK cb750s, like showroom fresh original.  So there is a record waiting for the "all original" guys out there.

The next step up is Super Street.  This is what Billy and Frankie (Dragracer) compete in.  Long swingarms (12" over minimum, 180/17 Shinko hookup sticky tires, big bore drag motors. 

This is great, but the vast bulk of the cb750 owners I can think of who would contemplate getting out to a Man Cup event, have something between those extremes.  Modestly to seriously modified.  Cosmetically, mechanically, and /or both.  Setting something up that will appeal to our predominant group of owners seems to make sense.

George
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 03:02:02 pm by gschuld »

Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2017, 03:58:20 pm »
Setting something up that will appeal to our predominant group of owners seems to make sense.


I find competing in Street ET quite enjoyable. It would be interesting to see what shakes out in Super Eliminator though.

As for "All Original", how many all original CB750's are left out there (besides ofreen's)? Can compression ratios be tested? Could you shave the stock heads and cylinders enough for a substantial compression increase with a stock bore and stock pistons? What if I went all "Burt Munro" and cast my own 61mm high compression pistons? Of course I would be obligated to relieve myself on the neighbors citrus tree while I was at it!  :o  ;D
TAMTF...


Wilbur



Projects:
"Evolution": http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=100352.0
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Offline gschuld

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Re: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2017, 04:36:35 pm »
Wilbur, come on now, there are LOTS of factory original spec cb750s out there.  Their owners might not frequent, or have any interest in the high performance section of this forum, but they sure are out there.  I'd LOVE to see a half dozen bone stock cb750s battle it out on the dragstrip.  I'm really happy to see you having fun out there.  Owners of bikes like yours are what this idea of having a class or classes between the dead stock of "Street Stock" and heavily modified deducated dragbikes of "Super Street" (nearly all the cb750 owners out there) is all about.

Oh no doubt, Smokey Yunick was famous for what is merely human nature (at least among gearheads).  How far can I stretch(or blatantly break and try to conceal) the rules to give me an advantage.  That's why Nascar has a 4 billion page rulebook to TRY to close every last loophole.

Bill Baxter can not be weighed down by rules that go beyond a casual exterior visual inspection.  Anything further would have to be done by cb750 owners collectively, self policing.

This ...may ...work in the confines of Man Cup events, but since the Eliminator races go on in other events not connected to the Man Cup series, it does not appear to be realistic to have to burden Bill Baxter with the responsibility of bringing along a oil volume displacement checker system for our class and show others how to use it.  He is, after all, a racer first, organizer second. 

So in short, the most fair and inclusive setup for these classes requires a set of restrictions that do not seem reasonable to implement(measure).   Even for just record breaking times only.

Even restricting classes to say...  1-factory carbs and 2- the rest, both classes with stock swingarm length, self starting, a 130 DOT rear tire, and basic ride height minimum would advantage bored factory carbs some since it would require a measurement to verify that the carbs are bone stock.

Something like that might be the best we can do though... ???

George

« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 05:25:16 pm by gschuld »

Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2017, 05:15:19 pm »
Wilbur, there are LOTS of factory original spec cb750s out there.

Yeah, that was kind of tongue in cheek. I've got a couple motors that are still stock, although one of them will need at least one or more pistons pressed out.

Some good ideas so far!
TAMTF...


Wilbur



Projects:
"Evolution": http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=100352.0
"P.O. Debacle": http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,126692.msg1441661.html#msg1441661
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Clean up that nasty harness: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=137351.msg1549191#msg1549191
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,148188.msg1688494.html#msg1688494
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,139544.msg1579364.html#msg1579364
                                          
Charging system diagnosis: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=1012.msg8345#msg8345
Get the manuals: http://manuals.sohc4.net/cb750k/
The Dragon: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45183.msg1571675#msg1571675
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Engine Lifting Made Easy: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,58210.msg1684742.html#msg1684742
                                      http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1675840.html#msg1675840
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Airbox Gasket Replacement: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,114485.msg1290000.html#msg1290000
"Café" : http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,84697.msg953814.html#msg953814
PD Carb Choke Linkage: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1669248.html#msg1669248
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Shorten your forks: http://vintage-and-classic-honda-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/How-to-shorten-forks-td4042465.html DO NOT CUT THE SPRINGS!
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2017, 06:04:45 pm »
Do a compression check on the winner...if it is 200lbs or so ....well.....
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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2017, 06:19:24 pm »
I would love to do more drag racing, in any class my bike is legal for.  The reason I don't...closest event is Memphis which is 16 hours away.  So for me, a new class to the Man Cup series is not gonna help.  I would like to see them add more dates to some tracks up north.  Guessing Man Cup promoters figure the market is not here, and they very well could be right.  Just my thoughts.
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Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2017, 06:30:02 pm »
I would love to do more drag racing, in any class my bike is legal for.  The reason I don't...closest event is Memphis which is 16 hours away.  So for me, a new class to the Man Cup series is not gonna help.  I would like to see them add more dates to some tracks up north.  Guessing Man Cup promoters figure the market is not here, and they very well could be right.  Just my thoughts.

I'm kind of in the same boat. At least Valdosta is only five hours away, two events in North Carolina are ten hours away and Memphis is about sixteen hours from Central Florida. I am trying to run the Southeast Dragbike Series but they have only been able to coordinate one event so far this season. The June event was rescheduled twice and is supposed to finally take place in Valdosta next weekend. Unfortunately, it looks like I may have a date with Irma next weekend...

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_at1+shtml/234935.shtml?cone#contents

 :(
TAMTF...


Wilbur



Projects:
"Evolution": http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=100352.0
"P.O. Debacle": http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,126692.msg1441661.html#msg1441661
F2/F3 O-rings: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=113672.msg1300721#msg1300721
Cam Tower Studs: https://www.mcmaster.com/#93210a017/=t19sgp
Clean up that nasty harness: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=137351.msg1549191#msg1549191
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,148188.msg1688494.html#msg1688494
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,139544.msg1579364.html#msg1579364
                                          
Charging system diagnosis: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=1012.msg8345#msg8345
Get the manuals: http://manuals.sohc4.net/cb750k/
The Dragon: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45183.msg1571675#msg1571675
Headlight Switch: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=113986.msg1283236#msg1283236
Branden's leak free top end thread: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=107040.0
Engine Lifting Made Easy: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,58210.msg1684742.html#msg1684742
                                      http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1675840.html#msg1675840
Static and Dynamic Timing: http://www.hondachopper.com/garage/carb_info/timing/timing1.html
Airbox Gasket Replacement: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,114485.msg1290000.html#msg1290000
"Café" : http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,84697.msg953814.html#msg953814
PD Carb Choke Linkage: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1669248.html#msg1669248
                                    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,110931.msg1248354.html#msg1248354
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Follow up on your damn posts: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,144305.msg1791605.html#msg1791605
Taiwanese Cam Chain Tensioners:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,155043.msg1774841.html#msg1774841
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Primary Drive: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,166063.msg1919278.html#msg1919278
Tank Latch: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,165975.msg1919495.html#msg1919495
Shorten your forks: http://vintage-and-classic-honda-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/How-to-shorten-forks-td4042465.html DO NOT CUT THE SPRINGS!
Clutch How To: http://vintage-and-classic-honda-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/How-to-change-and-adjust-a-clutch-SOHC-td4040391.html
Late model K7/K8/F2/F3 front sprocket cover removal: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,178428.msg2072279.html#msg2072279
630 to 530 conversion: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180710.msg2094423.html#msg2094423

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Online dragracer

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Re: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2017, 09:10:38 pm »
I would love to do more drag racing, in any class my bike is legal for.  The reason I don't...closest event is Memphis which is 16 hours away.  So for me, a new class to the Man Cup series is not gonna help.  I would like to see them add more dates to some tracks up north.  Guessing Man Cup promoters figure the market is not here, and they very well could be right.  Just my thoughts.

I'm kind of in the same boat. At least Valdosta is only five hours away, two events in North Carolina are ten hours away and Memphis is about sixteen hours from Central Florida. I am trying to run the Southeast Dragbike Series but they have only been able to coordinate one event so far this season. The June event was rescheduled twice and is supposed to finally take place in Valdosta next weekend. Unfortunately, it looks like I may have a date with Irma next weekend...

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_at1+shtml/234935.shtml?cone#contents

 :(

Oh snap batman, that path has changed since I looked at it a few days ago. I've got family from Miami to Tampa, Jacksonville to Savannah, into Charleston to Wilmington. And i'm only 90 miles in from the coast myself.

Offline scottly

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Re: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2017, 09:28:33 pm »
As far as displacement limits, the 836 was the most common size; there weren't very many 1000 cc+ bikes prowling the streets. ;)
Wilbur, fingers crossed... 
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Offline gschuld

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Re: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2017, 03:45:29 am »
As far as displacement limits, the 836 was the most common size; there weren't very many 1000 cc+ bikes prowling the streets. ;)
Wilbur, fingers crossed...

Very true.  That's why it would be great to offer a reasonably fair class to the biggest group or owners(736-836 owners).  Things haven't changed a whole lot really.  There are certainly some 1000cc plus street bikes out there, but FAR more 836s and the like.

George

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Re: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2017, 09:18:51 am »
Seems like there are no easy answers to how we police the cc limits. We'll have to consider external parameters to make this simple for tech purposes.

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2017, 12:08:48 pm »
Yeah, mine is stock.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline kmb69

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Re: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2017, 12:38:16 pm »
I have a stock Sandcast and a stock Automatic!  ;)

Offline gschuld

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Re: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2017, 01:35:36 pm »
Yup, Mike built me a stock motor too :-X

George

Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2017, 02:22:20 pm »
Actually, measuring displacement and compression would not be that difficult. Chamber volume of one cylinder measured at TDC and then at BTC gives you both, would it not? A bottom discharge graduated cylinder with a suitable oil for measuring, and a turkey baster for evacuating most of the oil from the cylinder when done.

Of course, this would only be necessary in the event of a challenge.  8)
TAMTF...


Wilbur



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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2017, 05:49:51 pm »
It's a tear down at Bonneville. The main thing they look at is the cylinder diameter. Heads off.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

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Re: Possible Street Stock CB 750 class for Super eliminator.Man Cup
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2017, 08:32:22 pm »
Fellas, since super eliminator is about setting new records, it seems to me if a cc challenge applied it would be when a person set a record for the given engine size they're claiming. Not if they win the overall race. Those records go in the national data base for eternity. They don't archive wins.