Author Topic: CB400 Four resto/mod----done and on the road!!  (Read 14667 times)

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Offline spuds

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CB400 Four resto/mod----done and on the road!!
« on: October 12, 2017, 08:45:23 PM »
Greetings from Ottawa, Ontario!!

Been hanging around on this site for a while now, pretty much since buying a fairly well preserved 400Four back in Spring 2016.   I was then in the process of "finishing" my first project--a '73 T500 cafe.   I mentioned to a pal that I would someday love to have a mid 70's Honda, and the stars lined up.



Just over 18,000 miles on it, two previous owners (that knew each other...the bike's ownership actually flip flopped between them over the years), it came with some spare carbs, and a few other bits.

Been reading/browsing/gawking for the last year and a half, and finally have a fairly good idea of what I hope to do with it.   I'm sure there are some that will yell "full on factory restoration", but that's not me.   I'm not going to go wild with it, but instead want to try experimenting with a couple of things.

Thing #1: the frame will NOT be chopped/cut/etc.   

Things 2 thru n:   
Going to run a rebuilt/slightly modified CB500Four front end on it that I bought from a member here.   The (slightly larger than 400 four) forks have emulators installed, and it's all set up to run double brake discs. 
Will look into slightly upgrading the rear shocks too. (still shopping...)
I've read here and other places that some folks run slightly (1.85/2.15) wider rims/tires, so I want to try that too.   I've picked up a KZ400 front rim that will lace to the CB500F hub, and a new rim for the back.   
The lighting will be downsized, and have bought some gently used CB350 fenders (again from someone here) and TTR400 rearsets. Also picked up a spare swing arm -- and shaved the passenger peg brackets off---cleans it up a little.
Picked up a cj360T seat pan and cowl, and have been mucking around with how that might look/work.



I've been poking away at the cowl...it needs some bodywork, and I'll gently reshape the profile a little, and of course it needs some hardware to mount it.   


Not sure yet what I'll use as the seat pan...that cj360 pan might get altered a little...   I'd love it though if I could keep the hinged seat setup though!

Really hoping to be able to use the gas tank as is (paint's not perfect and there's a couple of little dents....but it's original!!) and headers.

The hope for summer 2017 was to get the bike running and on the road....well one outta two ain't bad.   It starts but won't idle/run, but that's good enough for me.   I did get the bike safetied and licensed though.

The bike should clean up real well.  Not going the "cafe" route....but rather something between standard and cafe.  Prior to "taking it apart" though I want to get the seat/cowl/rear fender set up sorted, and decide on what gets painted etc.   Those parts will then be prepped for for paint, and a seat can be built.  Winter's a great time for dismantling/cleaning/polishing ......

woohoo!




« Last Edit: August 29, 2018, 06:21:14 PM by spuds »

Offline nvr2old

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Re: CB400 Four resto/mod
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2017, 10:18:10 AM »
That tail section looks totally factory.  It has the same angle as the down slope on the tank.  I once used the tail section and seat from an '81 400 Hawk, and that fit and looked really nice.  My last 400F had a '75 Ducati 750SS tail which also mirrored that shape of the tank, too.  Parts that work in harmony are such a beautiful thang..
'76 CB550F-'72 XL250-'82 MB5-'82 CX500 Turbo-'77 naked Goldwing-'75 CB400F cafe'-'79 Suzuki GS1000S..hey, it's a Wes Cooley..

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: CB400 Four resto/mod
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2017, 10:39:50 AM »
It looks like it has a compartment/trunk, too.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
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"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

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Offline spuds

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Re: CB400 Four resto/mod
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2017, 09:53:33 PM »
Yup--if I can swing a hinged seat for convenient access, there is indeed some room in the cowl for maybe a wallet, ownership, etc...

Spent some time shaving a bit of the length of the cowl....to my eye it was "just that much too long", and I reshaped the rear upward curve.   Also shaved out the back plate so that it now fits down and around the rear fender.

 



The lines are pretty darn close to the tank's rear slope - for sure what I was hoping to achieve...not bad for a $20 Kijiji find.   Working now on how it will attach to the frame....I've got a couple of ideas....


Offline Darren Jakal

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Re: CB400 Four resto/mod
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2017, 10:34:34 PM »
I like the lines you have going.

I was able to make a seat cowl that hinges at the rear on my 550. Something like that could work.

Offline minimo

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Re: CB400 Four resto/mod
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2017, 02:00:38 AM »
Dig that seat, DJ. You fab that yourself?


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Offline Darren Jakal

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Re: CB400 Four resto/mod
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2017, 09:13:53 AM »
Hey minimo,

Don't want to hijack the thread, but yea I made the seat and cowl.

Cheers, Darren

Offline spuds

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Re: CB400 Four resto/mod
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2017, 11:21:11 AM »

Long post warning!!!   Been a while since I updated this thread.  In some ways it feels like I'm spinning wheels, but I suppose some progress is measurable.

Firstly: I dunno about about how practical it's gonna be to make that CJ360T seat cowl and associated seat work.

Placing the "I don't want to do anything to the frame" along with the wouldn't it be cool to use the existing seat hinge and lock and retain the hinging seat constraints on myself, I'm not 100% convinced I can come up with a seat pan/seat that will be narrow enough to nicely blend into the cowl.  And part of the satisfaction that I enjoy getting from poking around with things like this is that notion of "It's not perfect, but I did that myself"....

I attacked the CJ360 seat pan, thinking that part of the middle could perhaps be removed, then the front portion and rear portion could be reattached somehow to form a pan that would flow from the tank and into the seat cowl.   





From the side, it looks like it has all sorts of potential....but it also looks overwhelmingly challenging. I'm not sure I can get it all to a point where all the angles are going to work well enough that there would be some "I did that" pride". And....the keeping of the frame's seat hinge and seat lock brackets necessitates that the rear of the seat pan will be just that much wider than the front of the cowl....it's gonna look like cr*p.  Sure, I could add layers of material to the cowl to bulk in up, but I think that's biting off more that I want to chew.

So, plan B: would the cowl flow from a 400Four seat pan?    No...seat pan is still too wide---it too needs to be to clear the frame's brackets.

 
So, plan C:  Drop the cowl idea, and use a shortened/reshaped 400F seat. -- make it functional (for solo riding) and make it more pleasing (to my eye).  In the early planning days I kinda thought that the seat could be modified to look something like:


So, disassembled the 400F seat....  eek....



As fate would have it, I managed to pick up a 1977 400Four seat and took it apart.  It was nowhere near as bad, and cleaned up pretty good.   I think it's usable.




So, the approach will be to modify the seat pan and foam a little bit at a time.   It's a process right?   That rear fender was always going to be reshaped a little as well---all in due time.



In other news, the cockpit area is slowly being taken apart:



The exhaust came off:




One header pipe is still adamantly refusing to be separated from the collector....and the (aftermarket) muffler is also very stubborn.

And two spare header pipes were acquired:


The TTR400 rearsets I bought were test fitted:
 

And the kick starter clears the right footpeg!

Also poked away at the carbs:  the bike came with rack installed:



And it came with 7 spares, 4 of which were on a rack and a little better looking


With these four spares installed back in August, the bike would start, but not idle.   Good enough for me....

A couple of hours of careful poking resulted (I hope!) in four good starting points.   Need to order up a few bits and bobs, but it feels good when old dirty parts can be cleaned up a little eh?


Also met with the guy who painted my T500's KZ400 tank.  I REALLY want to use the 400F's original paint, but there's a couple of small dents, and a couple of nicks/scratches.   The plan is to have his dent removal guys have a look, and just "freshen up" the tank's finish. 


If I can finalize what I hope/want to do with the tank/side covers/seat in the coming weeks, those bits can be sent off to the experts and I can then continue disassembling, cleaning, polishing, dealing with the other main components.  I also sourced a whackload of gaskets and seals, original levers, some smaller gauges, etc.   

Want to look into putting electronic ignition on it too....

I'll also include a few pics here of some preliminary work that was done "behind the scenes" prior to starting the thread.

I had bought a CB500Four front end from Fantino, that had been rebuilt with emulators and modified to run a dual disk.  It came with new All Balls Racing head and wheel bearings....a real nice little package of parts!!!   Should be a nice little non-over-the-top upgrade in the front suspension and braking department.

Over last winter some of those parts were polished up a little...


The 500F hub runs 40 spokes (400F has 36) so needed a different rim.   Opinions may vary, but a 90/90-18 front time and 110/90-18 rear are arguably a little wide for a 1.6 front and 1.85 rear rim....so....found a 40 spoke 1.85x18 rim (a fully assembled KZ400 rim), and a 2.15x18 rim for the back powdercoated in satin black.   
.
The KZ rim and spokes will work with the CB500Four's hub.   Managed to source brand NOS spokes from the local Kawasaki dealer--the parts guy there is amazing---he put a box of random, written off spokes in front of me and said fill yer boots.

And I was also looking to delete the passenger footpegs, but since they mount to the swingarm, I picked up a used swingarm and shaved the peg brackets. 
.   

Cleaned it up, sanded it down, made some small repairs.   It has a coat of primer on it now; some new bronze pivot bushings were acquired, the shock bushings were popped out and I have some new ones to go in.  It will be eventually painted/powdercoated.



So, when I myself read through the story so far, it seems like Tarantino is somehow involved...it's all over the place, but hopefully Quentin will help me bring it all together in the end!!!









Offline nvr2old

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Re: CB400 Four resto/mod
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2017, 05:38:25 PM »
Sorry to see the tail section go away.  It looked so right on there.  Nice progress, though.  I'll look forward to future updates.
'76 CB550F-'72 XL250-'82 MB5-'82 CX500 Turbo-'77 naked Goldwing-'75 CB400F cafe'-'79 Suzuki GS1000S..hey, it's a Wes Cooley..

Offline Kevin

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Re: CB400 Four resto/mod
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2017, 08:58:04 PM »
Hey Spuds,
Looks like you're making good progress.
I feel your pain with the seat dilemma. Keeping the seat hinge and lock is hard to do while coming up with something that looks "Right".
On my cafe' 400/4 I also wanted to retain the hinge and lock, but the seat I have just doesn't suit the bike. It's a real shame because everything else is spot on. In my mind I know exactly what it needs to be, the trick is getting someone with the necessary skills and tools needed to manufacture it to read my mind ;-)

Looking at the picture you posted of what you would like to achieve, the seat looks very similar to seats available in Japan for the CB400F for about $300 (US, plus postage). They use the stock hinge and lock.

Good luck with your project, I'll be following the thread to see what you come up with.


 
A couple of 400F's and a
'98 Suzuki Intruder VS1400 ~ for long rides

Offline spuds

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Re: CB400 Four resto/mod
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2017, 02:50:13 PM »
Thanks all,

Hey Kevin - that's quite the list of 400F's in your signature!!

Do you by chance have a link to those seats you mentioned?

I started shaving off some of the seat foam yesterday.  Might go at it a little again tomorrow morning....




Offline Kevin

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Re: CB400 Four resto/mod
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2017, 04:18:55 PM »
Hey Spuds,
Yes....I can't help myself when it comes to the CB400F.......believe it or not I have really thinned the heard out.

Regarding links to websites where you can buy the seats I mentioned I am having a hard time finding them on the web....but in my search I found a couple of thousand dollars worth of parts I must have!  :o
I will keep looking though.

I took one of my seats to an upholstery shop and had them do some cutting and welding and then rebuild the seat to get what I wanted for my "Retro" 400/4. I think the seat pan they put together for me would also work perfectly for the look you are after (although be it different than what I wanted to achieve). Just a thought......

I'm still working on the seat for my cafe' bike.


A couple of 400F's and a
'98 Suzuki Intruder VS1400 ~ for long rides

Offline spuds

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Re: CB400 Four resto/mod
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2017, 05:44:10 PM »
Oops.....but I hear ya-----browsing around for bike parts on that inter-webby thing is a nasty and expensive use of time!!! 

Damn nice job on that bike though!!

I like how you managed to get the rear of the seat to drop down close to the fender.   

I'm hoping to use a fender as well, but I'm going to bob it off some number of inches behind the seat, and am thinking I'll try to fill the gap between seat and fender with some sort of tail light.  The hope is that from either the side or the rear, that space won't "out of place".

I did up a T500 cafe style a couple of years ago...and admittedly, it was more about form than function.  The 400F will be more function than form, but it all still has to look "right", eh?




Offline spuds

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Re: CB400 Four resto/mod
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2017, 10:55:20 AM »
Good thing is was a nice morning to work outside, 'cuz holy dusty mess Batman!!!  My lawn is now yellow.

The other day I took some initial timid sweeps of a 60grit flap disc on an angle grinder to a spare seat foam I had.   OK....that's how it all behaves.

Right---where's that 400 Four seat foam?   

Still learning / observing how the grinder and the seat behave when they come into contact, I slowly shaved away some material.   I took the foam's length down to match the length of the shortened seat pan, and took some material away from the seating area....



Learning that, for whatever reason, one cannot always work on the foam from the same direction (the grinder bit too hard a couple of times, which for whatever reason required me to flip the foam the other way 'round to continue without it biting too hard?!?!?!?!?).  Gradually took more, test fitted, marked areas to shave, took more, test fitted, etc etc to finally get to



Turned attention then to the seat pan itself-----there was some material I was wanting to shave from the bottom rear edge.  Marked that, and cut



LOL---Before you ask---no...I did not miss the red cut line there....that was an older, original thought.

Really just eyeballing the overall seat length---I would like to go a little shorter out back, but I really don't want to expose/draw attention to the (from the side) resulting open area between the seat bottom edge and the fender / frame rails.

With the pan now slightly reshaped, I trimmed the rear bottom edge of the foam to match, and swapped the grinder for some 80 grit on a  sanding block.

After some time, I forced myself to stop....take a break, allow myself some time to sit back and stare at the whole thing for a bit for a couple of days.   And....the bonus is that the rider part of the seat remains quite supportive ---originally I was assuming that I might have to add back a thin layer of something to rebuild support/comfort (I know----It's meant to be a sport bike---comfort is relative...), but I may not have to in the end.

In that I'm not truly going for a "cafe" look here, I didn't really want a "hump" out back, ergo the flat rear section.   The foam is as thin as I dare make it at the very back.   

I *think* the "raised rear part" needs to be a little shorter in length---not much...only an inch or so, which either means making the lower rider seat area longer or the "ramp" less steep, but the solution hopefully will present itself after some staring.  All said though, have to say I'm quite pleased with where I got the whole thing to this morning.



Will be on the lookout for the "right" tail light to mount in this area....





 

Offline nvr2old

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Re: CB400 Four resto/mod
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2017, 11:03:41 AM »
Depending on what your vision of the rear fender will be, you could almost bob a large section of it off (leave the bottom section so it has the finished rolled edge) and fill the void under the seat pan with a flush mount tail light.
'76 CB550F-'72 XL250-'82 MB5-'82 CX500 Turbo-'77 naked Goldwing-'75 CB400F cafe'-'79 Suzuki GS1000S..hey, it's a Wes Cooley..

Offline spuds

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Re: CB400 Four resto/mod
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2017, 08:45:57 AM »
True.    The idea is to fill the area with a tail light for sure.

Right now I'm thinking of removing the rear part of the fender, as the front part fits and attaches so nicely in there under the seat to the inner fender and the frame's cross brace.  the cutting of it will be left until the end...once the seat is upholstered and the tail light's in there....but I think it will protrude out behind the seat 3....4...ish inches.   I think however I will remove the edge "lip"...again, to downsize the fender's "mass".

After some staring, I went at the foam with some 80grit on a block again this morning.

The goal was to move the "start" of the rear portion's plateau more towards the rear, and to also reduce the "mass" of the rear portion.

Took some more pics, and will stare again.

I think I'm getting there though.

Loosely, what I'm trying to do:


Where I was last night:


Where I am now:


From an another angle:


As I look through the pics even here....I think there's a little more to come off the back half of the rider seat portion and "ramp". 

I can and do see the rear portion's mass becoming smaller too...can't really take much more off the top (as I'm going for a flat plateau and the rear edge of foam is a thin as I dare take it), but mass is coming off by taking material off the sides upwards...making it more of a dome.  I think this will go some distance to making the upholster's job easier too as there'll be more rounded "corners".





Offline calj737

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Re: CB400 Four resto/mod
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2017, 08:56:07 AM »
If you are receptive to opinionated input...

I do really like the seat foam shape. Hell, I liked the cowl a lot too. What gives me pause is the shape of the seat as it relates to the shape of the tank.

The tank has a very structured, angular appearance to it that your organically shaped foam does not. They do not seem to relate to each other as an original design as a result. Now, maybe that doesn't matter to you, or its purposeful, but it does detract from the really nice execution of your work in my opinion.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline spuds

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Re: CB400 Four resto/mod
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2017, 09:51:20 AM »
Ya know what----thanks!!!!---for that.   I am going to re-examine that aspect of the seat foam shaping...maybe it does need a more square-ish rear section.

Staring, staring, staring.....


Offline calj737

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Re: CB400 Four resto/mod
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2017, 10:02:46 AM »
Psssst! Change the tank  ;) The seat is too good looking to go the other way  :)
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'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline spuds

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Re: CB400 Four resto/mod
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2017, 10:20:36 AM »
ya...but that tank......it's so.....signature!!!!   :)



Offline innovativems

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Re: CB400 Four resto/mod
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2017, 10:35:04 AM »
That is true about the 400 tank.  The shaping on the seat is nice but i don't think it ties into the tank well.  If may actually work with a 350f tank.  The rounder shape might go well with it 
2007 KTM 990 adv
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2000 Yamaha YSR50
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Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: CB400 Four resto/mod
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2017, 11:20:21 AM »
I like the shape of the seat -- looks like a flat track style seat but with full foam.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline spuds

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Re: CB400 Four resto/mod
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2017, 02:51:29 PM »
Really, really appreciate the input lads---thanks!

And, I guess like a dog with a bone, I was back out in the garage again to do more sanding.    Making the rear section more angular to tie it in better with the tank was a great suggestion---as it also allows me to reduce its visual mass once again.

There's not much change in these pics from the last ones, but the rounded dome has been pretty much flattened, and some of the roundness on the rear portion's sides has been flattened as much as I dare go as well.

Also took a little more out of the rider's area.

By George, I think we're there.









Tuck a little Lucas styled tail light in that space and Bob just might be your uncle!!



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Re: CB400 Four resto/mod
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2017, 03:49:41 PM »
That looks good, spuds!
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline Camrector

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Re: CB400 Four resto/mod
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2017, 05:25:02 PM »
Spuds I tend to be agreeing more and more with Cal these days ( don’t worry I’m calling a doctor tomorrow). What about cutting more of an angle at the rear of the seat. Similar to the cowl idea you had a first. Or revisit that cl360 cowl!