Author Topic: Front master,upgrade, 14mm or 15mm?  (Read 2691 times)

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Offline 1976cb750f836

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Front master,upgrade, 14mm or 15mm?
« on: October 30, 2017, 06:13:32 am »
My 76 750f has a 78f front end and wheel.
I've always thought the brakes had room for Improvement!
I noticed one of the vintage suppliers has a 15mm bore master,that is listed as an improvement,
What is stock Size?
I've also found a 14mm universal master on Ebay?
I know the smaller the bore the easier it is to Pull!
The stock setup is quiet hard to pull.
With stock 78 calipers and rotars,which would be better?
Could u go to small Bore?
My gs750 has 14mm, and WAY better brakes.
This winter I'm replacing all brake hoses so either can be made work,my local napa
Makes brake hoses,for about half what oem replacements Cost!
It's time to replace mine, their Original!
And it would be nice to have easier pull on the Lever?
I'm 59 and my hands cramp after 30-45 min ride anyway.
Thanks

Offline bwaller

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Re: Front master,upgrade, 14mm or 15mm?
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2017, 08:29:01 am »

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Front master,upgrade, 14mm or 15mm?
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2017, 08:49:44 am »
Other than disassembling to measure, anybody know piston sizes for the likely caliper suspects we deal with here?
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline becken

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Re: Front master,upgrade, 14mm or 15mm?
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2017, 09:02:50 am »
As per Michael at Vintage Brake, I put an 11mm master cylinder on my 550. I had to use Galfer brake lines as I could feel the Spegler lines expanding under pressure and could not get the brake not to come to the grip. That with Ferodo organic brake pads has given me a very modern feeling powerful front brake.
1976 CB550F bought new
1981 CM400A wife bought new
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Offline 1976cb750f836

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Re: Front master,upgrade, 14mm or 15mm?
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2017, 10:17:23 am »
So if the 15 would be a slight improvement, then 14 would still be safe, and in the ball park?
They feel almost like wood, new pads, rotars da sanded with 80 gt, caliper disassembled and  cleaned.  My 77 wing felt just wooden,but it's somebody else problem now, sold it this Summer!
Front brakes on both looked just alike.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Front master,upgrade, 14mm or 15mm?
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2017, 01:42:29 pm »
Sorry, this may confuse matters, but bore size is not the only consideration.  There is also the lever fulcrum and arm moments to consider when seeking hand pressure changes.

The cylinder swept volume does increase when increasing bore diameter, as it can move more volume for the same stroke length as the smaller bore.
But, the volume comes at a cost when looking at the pressures achieved.  To create the same hydraulic pressure at the caliper, more pressure has to be applied to the master cylinder piston.
This is where the lever arm moments come into focus.   These moments determine the mechanical advantage of the lever, about the fulcrum/pivot.
Length of hand lever vs, length of piston actuating arm.

A dual disk arrangement would need more fluid volume to actuate than a single disk if the caliper cylinder diameters were the same (piston diameter) in both.  This favors a larger diameter master.  However, the pressure requirements are a different matter.  To double the pressure, would require a smaller diameter master cylinder piston, traveling twice as far, to get the volume needed for caliper cylinder movement.  That's the physics of the hydraulic side of the system.

The hand pressure applied to the master cylinder piston, is determined by the lever arm moment ratio, lever length to piston lever length.

I don't think you can pick a satisfactory master cylinder without knowing the hand lever ratios.  Unless, luck plays a factor. ;)

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline rotortiller

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Re: Front master,upgrade, 14mm or 15mm?
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2017, 04:23:53 pm »
I think 77/78 Ks had a slightly bigger caliper piston area. They are still wooden feeling and could use a smaller master with higher PSI. Since the pad area is fixed all you got to work with is pad material and pressure. My advice is to go with the highest line pressure you can get without running out of lever travel. I would definitely try 14 and possibly under since you are running a single disk and stock caliper. Look at it this way, if the feel is wooden at minimal lever travel as I expect it is, you have lots of wiggle room or excess working fluid volume to trade off for more brake line pressure. You also have the option of smaller stiffer fluid line if you over compensate a bit on reduced master piston selection. Becken has the best CDF reply I have seen for practicality. Roughly 25 mm fulcrum to center of piston is pretty typical with many bikes in both single and dual disk (just measured a H2 triple, CBR, Ninja single , and 600 Yamaha dual, NSIN Asian 1/2" aftermarket, and CB750K7 to be all very close)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 04:12:46 am by rotortiller »

Offline robvangulik

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Re: Front master,upgrade, 14mm or 15mm?
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2017, 04:50:05 pm »
since you are running a single disk and stock caliper.
The subject is a dual caliper 750 F

Offline scottly

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Re: Front master,upgrade, 14mm or 15mm?
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2017, 09:45:03 pm »
Other than disassembling to measure, anybody know piston sizes for the likely caliper suspects we deal with here?
The 750K's all had 14mm MC pistons, although the K7/8, and possibly F/F1, had less mechanical advantage than the K6 and earlier MC's.
The 750's through K6, as well as 550's, had 38mm calipers, while K7/8, and possibly F/F1, had 42.8mm calipers. The F2/3 had two 38mm calipers, with a huge 17.5mm MC. I've used an early 14mm MC with two 38mm calipers with good results, and two 42.8mm calipers with a K7 14mm MC, also with good results.
Either of the two 14mm MC's would be better than the F2/3 17.5mm MC IMHO.
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Offline rotortiller

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Re: Front master,upgrade, 14mm or 15mm?
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2017, 03:47:53 am »
Yup my bad on the dual, late night yesterday. Still the lever fulcrum is similar on dual and singles which suggests a major player is piston size. I have used single CB750  masters with two CB disks and it had a wood feel still. I  still suggest reducing the piston size and pick up some added pressure based upon current position of the woody.  ;)

Offline 1976cb750f836

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Re: Front master,upgrade, 14mm or 15mm?
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2017, 09:56:14 am »
Yes,it's dual disk.and I don't know if it's the single disc 76f master or if I used the one off the 78f front End?
Doesn't matter 14mm,with mirror mount and brake light switch ordered off ebay today,it's China product ,but a us seller,so I won't wait 3 weeks on shipment?
25$ shipped very 19 shipped out of China?
Seller has a good rating?
Hard to believe price?
He'll they were more than that in 70s?
Now what bout the rear? Can we do the same thing going their and mount up similar?
Anyone know rear bore size,76F module?
When searching I saw several rear cylinders?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 09:58:40 am by 1976cb750f836 »

Offline rotortiller

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Re: Front master,upgrade, 14mm or 15mm?
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2017, 04:45:05 am »
Let us know how you like it once completed, real tested data would certainly help out others with your braking system. I've put modern later calipers and matching masters on single rotor 70s bikes and they stop on a dime with absolutely no need for dual disks. While not a SOHC the Kawasaki EX250 system grafted on old H2 triple which was terrible for stopping.
The Honda 750K is difficult with swing arm caliper for adapting but the F model may be easier?


rt
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 04:53:19 am by rotortiller »

Offline Don R

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Re: Front master,upgrade, 14mm or 15mm?
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2017, 05:00:05 pm »
 I used a 14mm on my gl1000 and loved it, more travel, less force required. I did an 85 to zero practice panic stop that flat impressed me.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Front master,upgrade, 14mm or 15mm?
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2017, 09:53:33 pm »

The Honda 750K is difficult with swing arm caliper for adapting but the F model may be easier?

rt
The late F forks are indeed much more adaptable to caliper swaps, and if using the F2/3 comstar wheel and small rotors, the upgrade to twin piston calipers is a bolt-on.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,89771.0.html
I've just fit a twin piston caliper with a 297mm rotor, and when I've put enough miles on it to bed in the pads I'll do a braking test to compare it with a K7 caliper.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline 1976cb750f836

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Re: Front master,upgrade, 14mm or 15mm?
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2017, 05:49:43 am »
I'll post results when I get 14mm install,and system flush Complete!
Now let's get the rear up to date also?
I've found several rear master cylinder on ebay, 10-20$ range,
So far I've found,14mm, and 12.8mm Bore!
Can't believe how many sellers don't give the bore diameter in description?
None are a bolt on, but with minimal fab work they will?
So anyone know stock bore on first generation rear Master?
Or can I pull the boot,and measure bore without dissasembly?
Thanks all!

Offline Don R

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Re: Front master,upgrade, 14mm or 15mm?
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2017, 08:55:01 pm »
 I found the F1's stock rear quite good, I've heard a gl1000 kit will rebuild it.

  On the front, I heard the twin piston alone wasn't much different but with that big rotor to get ahold of I'm betting it's awesome.
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Offline 1976cb750f836

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Re: Front master,upgrade, 14mm or 15mm?
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2017, 05:58:58 am »
Pads and a really nice looking master came in yesterday, hope to install today,at least get started?
I'm taking calipers apart again to be sure they are Clean!
I like to scuff new pads with 80 gt Sandpaper!
I'm using 100gt on a DA sander on rotars,unless u all have any other ideas?
No shops around hear will surface Them?
They ant really groves much at all,just Slick!
I'll take pics and do a write up when Done!
I'm sooooo looking forward to this,wooden brakes is the reason it sets a lot and I ride my Gs?
Now if all works well ill have no Excuses?
I still need info on the diameter of the bore on the rear master, it's Next?

Offline rotortiller

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Re: Front master,upgrade, 14mm or 15mm?
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2017, 08:33:22 am »
Quote
I'm using 100gt on a DA sander on rotors

I've use high speed rotary tool with green scotch-brite pads.


Offline 1976cb750f836

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Re: Front master,upgrade, 14mm or 15mm?
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2017, 09:17:42 pm »
Install really simple,bench bled master,took old one off,put on new one.
Had to cut the wires to my brake Switch!
Put new ends on wire to plug to new master, it came with Switch!
I had to clearance the part of the Lever that pushes the piston,it had no free travel,
It now has bout  15-20 Thousands!
I bled the master at the Banjo!
Lever gets firm bout 3/4in into Pull!
It 75 degree hear today,time for a test ride!

Offline 1976cb750f836

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Re: Front master,upgrade, 14mm or 15mm?
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2017, 09:29:10 pm »
Well their a whole lot better,no more wooden Feel!
A panic stop now is Easy!
Don't get me wrong, this wasn't magic,but it's a Whole lot safer and way easier to Pull!
And I think it looks better Too!
Glad I went with the 14mm, a 13mm would probably even be Better!
I would recommend, cheap and Easy!
Wish I'd done it years Ago!
And sometime this winter I  adding new lines, after its too cold to Ride!
Thanks. For the Help!

Offline rotortiller

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Re: Front master,upgrade, 14mm or 15mm?
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2017, 04:02:48 am »
Quote
Glad I went with the 14mm, a 13mm would probably even be Better!

I am glad you took the issue to task rather than give up due to opinions. Many things available today can improve old technology at a cheap cost; brake masters, modern brake lines, breaker-less ignitions, modern tires, modern shocks, tapered steering head bearings, better lighting and the list goes on. Most do not really change the look of the bike much and improve safety, reliability and performance.

 I am pleased you posted your actual results, it will certainly help other people out! There is so much real world information around today that it's become a real time saver.

I will say this, so far I am satisfied with the strength of old-school spoke wheels when single disk brake performance is improved. Antique rotors seem up to the task as they are  pretty bulky, some guys turn them down to save weight instead of drilling thus maintaining friction contact area.

rt

Offline 1976cb750f836

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Re: Front master,upgrade, 14mm or 15mm?
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2017, 05:32:22 am »
And one last thing,when searching ebay, I used gs750 master as a search.
Reason being my 81 gs had way better brakes than my cb750f.
The one I bought is an exact copy of the one on my Gs!
Except it's polished instead of Black!
It also has a mirror mount, some dont,and came with brake switch,some Don't!

I'd like to do the rear next,but can't seem to find any info on bore Diameter?
While bike is down this winter for new lines, I'll tear stock one apart and Measure?
They are cheap also, 10-20$

Offline 1976cb750f836

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Re: Front master,upgrade, 14mm or 15mm?
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2017, 06:04:11 am »
Found another 14mm.
For all u 100 point restoration Guys!
I looks like stock one.
It cost a bit more but 45$ still ant much for improved Brakes?
It's from 4 into 1

http://4into1.com/replica-kawasaki-complete-brake-master-cylinder-use-on-honda-too-14mm/