Topic: Saddam Hussein - hanging is BS

[Klark Kent]

i had fun making fun of al gore too BS.  my stae voted for him but i didnt, i didnt think there was a difference between the two parties.  but the gore goes and makes this movie, which was very well done and thoughtfully so.  and bush goes on to refuse to conform to the kyoto protocol.  i felt pretty dumb for seeing no difference.

i felt even dumber recently when i read we had already spent $300 billion USD on a unilateral war of choice, the same amount of dollars fully conforming to kyoto would have cost us, which would have led to u much less inconvenient world for a lot of people on earth and yet to be (our childrens children)  it is the seemingly short term vision of the conservative party, as well as the apocalyptic aspirations of the fundamental rirght that scare me, and have real power to destroy the world i live in for me and generations to come. 

compare that to the hippie that is going to turn your group of friends into communists or whatever social guidance film you get your world view from.
-KK

ps- that is my last installment before I leave town for a few days, but feel free to respond,  i get back the 13th.

[dusterdude]

wow,does that mean we can talk about you while you`re gone?

[burmashave]

wow,does that mean we can talk about you while you`re gone?

Why not?  We do when he's here.

[dusterdude]

hahahahaha 

[Terry in Australia]

I notice your artful dodge of how many times you've visited the USA (your shopping paradise so it seems) 

I'm sure being army and a paratrooper your familiar with "feet on the ground" which there is no substitute for......

Brisbane? Tourist town? Doug MacArthur musta thought it had charm as he had his headquarters there in WWII. Yes I know...The second world war another shocking example of the USA as the worlds policemen.

Cept that time I don't recall ever hearing an Ozzie complain about 

Come at least have a look before you critique. My Home is always open to ya.

Ha ha, well, whatever Tim, remember mate, considering that you're about as American as me, and you were actually born and bred in a country that supported Nazi Germany in WW2, what America did or didn't do for Oz in WW2 has got buggerr-all to do with you anyway?

I can understand how after being born and bred in third world shiite-hole like Argentina, a place under the control of a military junta  reportedly full of dickheads and nazi war criminals, (no I've never been there either Tim, nor do I want to......) Texas must seem like heaven on earth, and good on you for adopting Texas as your new home mate, (so many immigrants seem to bring their craappy cultures with them, to the eternal annoyance of their host country) but to reconfirm my previous point, a two week holiday in the Gold Coast during the "off season" is no qualification for your previous boasting post.

If you've read some of my earlier posts from this week, I do indeed intend to visit the US, hopefully as early as your next summer or fall, but I don't know whether or not I'll get down your way, Bobby R, who's opinion I do actually value quite highly, is that Texas is very much like Oz, and REAL Texans (as opposed to Argentinians in cowboy hats) are great people, but it'll only be a two week flying visit, and I have a lot of friends in the US that I'll be catching up with, so I may have to pass on your invitation. Cheers, Terry.

[Rocking-M]

I hate to say it but I'd have to agree with Terry. You can't know nothing about folks in a 2 week visit.
I've been to only three foreign countries. Canada and Yankee land. (6 months in Canada, 8 months in Maine,
and it gives you some time to see how folks are)
In both I found the regular folks to be pretty much like me, now that's a skeer ain't it.

I'd have told y'all a few years back that the South was the greatest country in the world,
Texas can stay in it or get out , but, now we're becoming to yankeeized and I suspect
we're dying as a region because of it.

However, true Patriotism is a love of country, that land which you work and live and breath in,
so I got to say, Virginia's Blue Ridge Mountains is the greatest country in the world. I ain't a nationalist
so I really don't care about how they do it in Texas or New York.

This Flag sorta sums it up for any Patriot of their own land,
just happens to be a Texas Flag. So now we know why Kghost loves Texas.

[kghost]

I notice your artful dodge of how many times you've visited the USA (your shopping paradise so it seems) 

I'm sure being army and a paratrooper your familiar with "feet on the ground" which there is no substitute for......

Brisbane? Tourist town? Doug MacArthur musta thought it had charm as he had his headquarters there in WWII. Yes I know...The second world war another shocking example of the USA as the worlds policemen.

Cept that time I don't recall ever hearing an Ozzie complain about 

Come at least have a look before you critique. My Home is always open to ya.

Ha ha, well, whatever Tim, remember mate, considering that you're about as American as me, and you were actually born and bred in a country that supported Nazi Germany in WW2, what America did or didn't do for Oz in WW2 has got buggerr-all to do with you anyway?

I can understand how after being born and bred in third world shiite-hole like Argentina, a place under the control of a military junta  reportedly full of dickheads and nazi war criminals, (no I've never been there either Tim, nor do I want to......) Texas must seem like heaven on earth, and good on you for adopting Texas as your new home mate, (so many immigrants seem to bring their craappy cultures with them, to the eternal annoyance of their host country) but to reconfirm my previous point, a two week holiday in the Gold Coast during the "off season" is no qualification for your previous boasting post.

If you've read some of my earlier posts from this week, I do indeed intend to visit the US, hopefully as early as your next summer or fall, but I don't know whether or not I'll get down your way, Bobby R, who's opinion I do actually value quite highly, is that Texas is very much like Oz, and REAL Texans (as opposed to Argentinians in cowboy hats) are great people, but it'll only be a two week flying visit, and I have a lot of friends in the US that I'll be catching up with, so I may have to pass on your invitation. Cheers, Terry.

My mothers uncle was killed flying Halifax bombers with the RCAF durring WWII

My fathers uncle was killed in action June 6, 1944 in Normany.

My wifes grandfather made 2 out of three parachute assaults in WWII. Normany and Holland. Managed to survive the Battle of the Bulge (ardennes) too. Still carries the shrapnel.

DO YOU THINK THAT QUALIFIES TERRY?

Its a rather simple thing to sit across 7000+ miles of ocean and critique the system of someplace you have never been.

Here is a handy thought for anyone who is not an american when they wish to comment. Don't be like the french. Remember the good things that have been done with you and for you.

Terry your quite right. I was born and raised in a country with a long history of tinpot despots. Kinda like Iraq.

I very well remember...A local judge was blown up by what is now called an IED (improvised explosive device we just called them bombs). We lived two doors down and it blew all the windows out of our house.

I can sure remember Small minded men with big guns. I can very easily remember laying awake at night listening to running gun battles.

Thousands of people disappeared in Argentina. Picked up off the street and out of their homes for dissent (real or imagined) never to be seen again.

Family members of those people are still trying to find out what happened to their loved ones. Kinda like Iraq.

Its my sincere hope that no one here ever has those kinds of experiences. If your going thru them you sure wish someone, anyone would intervene.

The great thing about America is that while many immigrants do bring their "crappy culture" with them, they soon adapt to the American way of life. Why? Because its better and has alot more to offer. America has a history of taking the best of "crappy crappy" cultures and integrating it into its society. Everyone here (unless they are Native American Indians) came from somewhere else.

P.S.

Terry I didn't make a boast. I suggested you come see someplace before you comment. By the way I stayed in Crestmead a suburb of Brisbane. With friends. Kinda the same as you intend to do. Only made it to the gold coast one day.

Don't bother visiting Argentina it looks alot like New Zealand.

Argentine cowboys are called gaucho's and I own neither a cowboy hat nor a pair of boots.
 

[Terry in Australia]

Whatever Tim,  I didn't read your rant mate,  I'm over it, and I suggest you try to do the same. Cheers, Terry. 

[Rsnip988]

Oh come one Terry it was worth a read

[Terry in Australia]

Oh come one Terry it was worth a read

Well I did Richard, and it was quite a good post actually. When Tim's not "poasting" he's quite a nice bloke. Cheers, Terry.

[Rocking-M]

Tim, the point is that your attitude is the height of american arrogance!
We are by no means the best as a whole. Individually I like to think most of
us are ok but as a whole our arrogance stinks. That's why I don't embrace the
sheep mentality that the uS is always right. Hell, I think we've been wrong more than
right.

I come from a long line of "americans" dating back to the 1600's so
I guess I can voice my opinion on "americans". Though I prefer to not think
of myself as an american. I'm a Virginian now, though born a North Carolinian.

And to get back to Saddam, no he was no worse than Bush is.
He received his military ability from the uS. He was more or less prompted
by the uS to invade Kuwait when he did and was set up for the fall then.
(Of course we get lots of Kuwait oil now I'm pretty sure.)  He used gas supplied
directly or indirectly by the uS in a war with Iran, prompted again by the uS.
I suspect that his total kill of Iraqis is not as high as this war for "WMD's" but I've never seen
any hard data on it since the death toll amongst Iraqis is not reported and
will never be done so truthfully during or after this "war".

[Rsnip988]

And to get back to Saddam, no he was no worse than Bush is.
He received his military ability from the uS. He was more or less prompted
by the uS to invade Kuwait when he did and was set up for the fall then.
(Of course we get lots of Kuwait oil now I'm pretty sure.)  He used gas supplied
directly or indirectly by the uS in a war with Iran, prompted again by the uS.
I suspect that his total kill of Iraqis is not as high as this war for "WMD's" but I've never seen
any hard data on it since the death toll amongst Iraqis is not reported and
will never be done so truthfully during or after this "war".

all of your allegged set-ups were before Bush came into office so I dont see how "bush uis just as bad", having bad intel and being an idiot dont make you a bad person, murdering and trying to exterminate a race however do...
the secterian violence shouldnt be blamed on Bush since they are all a bunch of crazy murdering suicidal people and that is what has contributed to a majority of the "civillian"deaths in IRAQ

[burmashave]

Tim, the point is that your attitude is the height of american arrogance!

I wouldn't exactly call it arrogant to be the number one provider (per capita) of aid to the world. 

We are by no means the best as a whole. Individually I like to think most of
us are ok but as a whole our arrogance stinks. That's why I don't embrace the
sheep mentality that the uS is always right. Hell, I think we've been wrong more than
right.

I come from a long line of "americans" dating back to the 1600's so
I guess I can voice my opinion on "americans". Though I prefer to not think
of myself as an american. I'm a Virginian now, though born a North Carolinian.

And to get back to Saddam, no he was no worse than Bush is.
He received his military ability from the uS. He was more or less prompted
by the uS to invade Kuwait when he did and was set up for the fall then.
(Of course we get lots of Kuwait oil now I'm pretty sure.)  He used gas supplied
directly or indirectly by the uS in a war with Iran, prompted again by the uS.
I suspect that his total kill of Iraqis is not as high as this war for "WMD's" but I've never seen
any hard data on it since the death toll amongst Iraqis is not reported and
will never be done so truthfully during or after this "war".

To quote Gen. Anthony McAuliffe, "Nuts."  Saddam Hussein is credited with as many as 2 million deaths.  He is responsible for killing as many as 300,000 (also here, here, here and here) of his own civilians (non-combatants).  Whether one likes Bush or despises him, one would need a twisted rule for "worse" in order to equate him to Hussein.

If the US is to be held responsible -- by means of our earlier support for Hussein -- then we must hold the US and FDR responsible for the estimated 20 million that "Uncle Joe" Stalin murdered in the Soviet Union, etc.

I may well misunderstand your meaning; however, In the US, lineage is not a prerequisite, nor does it provide greater standing, for an opinion about the moral correctness of our country.

[kghost]

Tim, the point is that your attitude is the height of american arrogance!
We are by no means the best as a whole. Individually I like to think most of
us are ok but as a whole our arrogance stinks. That's why I don't embrace the
sheep mentality that the uS is always right. Hell, I think we've been wrong more than
right.

For it to be American arrogance I think I'd actually have to be American.

The point of my original post ( before terry and I started slinging arrows, cheers mate  ) was that I've managed to wander a big chunk of the globe.

I think (and this is just a personal opinion based on my own observations rather than conjecture and reading news reports and the internet) that America is best as a Whole

Taken as a whole its pretty awesome.

Does this mean America is perfect and without mistake? Definitely not. I can say from first hand experience that the US policy in central and south america has been an abismal failure. Reference hugo chavez to see the results.

However as a whole and as a people we enjoy some of the best living and personal freedom.

Every country has its share of problems and issues. America for me has the least problems with the greatest freedom and opportunity. (Once again based on what I have seen) .

I would be hard pressed to explain how America has wound up as the worlds "superpower" and "policeman" where that not the case.

Perhaps someone else can explain the American Dominance of world events by some other means.

Surely another country would have wound up with that title were things different.

The Germans had they won WWI, The USSR had it not collapsed under its own weight etc.

Petty Despots are like weeds that pop up. Left unattended they will take over the whole lawn.

"All it takes for tyranny to prevail is strong men to do nothing"

[dusterdude]

kghost,messes like hugo chavez have been more prevalent since the u.s. outlawed assasinating foreign officials.

[kghost]

Good point 

[Terry in Australia]

Hmmnnn, well I think all the flag-waving broo-ha-ha about America only trying to intervene in world politics to help those poor downtrodden third world folk is just a classic example of the US government masking it's real agenda of only helping those countries who can help the US.

Until Saddam invaded Kuwait in 1991, he was a great friend of the US, who happily supplied him with tanks, ships, aircraft, weapons systems etc, and also supplied military advisers to implement these new systems and train the Iraqi military, in return for access to Iraqi oil.

The US goverment was well aware of how Saddam was treating the Iraqi and Kurdish people, but back then, business was business, and they conveniently looked the other way. It was only when Saddam stepped over the line and threatened the US' business interests in Kuwait (formerly part of Iraq) that George Bush senior was forced to act.

Had Saddam stayed out of Kuwait and kept shaking Donald Rumsfelds hand, he'd still be alive today, living in a state of luxury unknown to anyone here, still randomnly killing off Iraqi and Kurdish folk who've somehow annoyed him, with the US government's blessing, and in a lot of cases, assistance. Cheers, Terry.    

     

[kach_me]

alright... let's say we created Saddam.  We buddied up with him, we got real cozy, we gave him intel, guns, ammunition, tanks, planes, McDonald's and rap music.  We even turned our heads when he ordered the torture and death of hundreds of thousands... Over time, Saddam gets too arrogant, too aggressive, too provactive to the American-way of life, too whatever and we finally decide to take 'em out. 

Because our motives are not 'pure' and because we look to the betterment of our own country, should we take no action?  Or can only the pure-at-heart, altruistic folks intervene?  If so, then I say we're all b-o-n-e-d.  And, I don't think we can handle anymore of the UN's, ummm... assistance.

I know my opinion is not the popular one, so don't bother giving me any more stuff, just let it lay...

Just couldn't sit here and read about how selfish (read EVIL) US' intentions are and NOT post something.  Any other country that thought things were going badly could have tried to put an end to it, but no one did. 

Now I'm done and I'm gonna go read about the Save-the-Rita thread and try to think happy thoughts. 

[Terry in Australia]

Because our motives are not 'pure' and because we look to the betterment of our own country, should we take no action?  Or can only the pure-at-heart, altruistic folks intervene?  If so, then I say we're all b-o-n-e-d.  And, I don't think we can handle anymore of the UN's, ummm... assistance.

If the US' action in Iraq was as a result of it not being able to stand by and watch Saddam continue to torture and murder thousands (millions?) of his own folk, then I'd say a big "well done".

But knowing that the US government (or any other government in the "Coalition of the Willing", mine included) didn't give a rats ass about that, but was really just looking for a way to divert the attention of the American people away from all the hard questions about how miserably unsuccessfull the most powerful country in the world was to prevent 9/11, and then catch the culprits, pretty much tells me that the "action" that you speak of (the debacle in Iraq) was unwarranted, and unnecessary.

I know, someone's gonna say "what about all the Iraqi lives that have been saved as a result of deposing the tyrant?", and my answer is, considering the 3000+ American boys who've all died horrible deaths since the invasion, and the thousands more American casualties suffering back at home in VA hospitals and mental institutions all over the US, not to mention the estimated 100,000 + Iraqis killed since the invasion, a big "So What?" And while all this has gone on, Osama Bin Laden is still comfortably sitting in his cave, planning yet another mass-murder in the US. Kinda sucks, doesn't it? Cheers, Terry.    

[kghost]

Most of the guys I know in the military would rather shoot it out with the fanatics over there then over here.

Just a thought.

[Rocking-M]

Most of the guys I know in the military would rather shoot it out with the fanatics over there then over here.

Just a thought.

Now that's a load. They ain't coming over here!

Yea, the uS gubberment is wonderful for the sheep. Y'all keep believing that horse #$%*
and living in the dark, maybe mushrooms is a better name. The gubberment will keep on doing it's merry little deals here
and yon. And quoting of Generals who can inflate any number to suit their desires.

You like to quote generals do you BS. Howabout Genr'l Butler,
and to paraphrase, "war ain't nothing but a racket set up to help
the rich get richer".


I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested.

But here, read what he wrote for yourselves, first take of your tinfoil hats.

http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

[Roach Carver]

i'll read it, but you can forget about me takin off this tinfoil hat. It totaly goes with my tinfoil shoes. without it I would look silly.

[burmashave]

You like to quote generals do you BS. Howabout Genr'l Butler,
and to paraphrase, "war ain't nothing but a racket set up to help
the rich get richer".

That he was a general matters little to why I used the quote.  I used the quote because I found it appropriate.  Your reply does not refute my claim that it would take a twisted view of "worse" in order to equate George W. Bush with Saddam Hussein.  That was my point.

...I suspect that his total kill of Iraqis is not as high as this war for "WMD's" but I've never seen
any hard data on it since the death toll amongst Iraqis is not reported and
will never be done so truthfully during or after this "war"....

I provided no less than 5 sources for estimates of the number of his own civilians that Hussein killed.  I chose these (including Human Rights Watch, NPR and CNN) as sources that have proven less than friendly to Bush in the past.  One must wear a tinfoil hat to reject the reporting of such a wide variety of sources.  By definition, your claim -- that Hussein may not be an evil monster -- is thus far unfounded.  Changing the base of an argument is not the same as refuting it.

...I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested.

But here, read what he wrote for yourselves, first take of your tinfoil hats.

http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

Talk about drinking the Kool Aid.  One of the two things that everyone should know about statistics is:

Correlation does not imply causation.

Live it.  Learn it. 

[kghost]

Most of the guys I know in the military would rather shoot it out with the fanatics over there then over here.

Just a thought.

Now that's a load. They ain't coming over here!

They already did.

[Rsnip988]

I'd rather lock down the US, and keep people that arent citizens out, and kick out the ones that are here than to be "rebuilding Iraq"  we still have homeless people in New orleans from the hurricaine and they want to rebuild a country a world away, (Then again Iraq had running water and electricity every day until we blew  the crap out of it)