Author Topic: Cowmann's No Bull PODS on CV carb tuning writeup  (Read 3760 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline BomberMann650

  • Holy Cow! I'm a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,422
  • Dr. Bovinestein iBa#80333
Cowmann's No Bull PODS on CV carb tuning writeup
« on: March 19, 2018, 05:44:23 PM »
All across the internet, motorcycle forum members are annoyed with this single question;
Quote
Installed pods on XXX bike.  Why doesn't run right?

Usually the bike has some form of Constant Velocity carb and nearly everyone says to put the airbox back on.  Others just type YOU WERE WARNED and include an angry face.
Naturally, this ominous advice was ignored.  K&N cones were installed on some notoriously crappy 3 circuit mikuni cv carbs.  Causing the bike to run like total garbage.

Knowing that pods would "lean out the mix" - bigger jets were ordered and installed.  6sigma provided the kit and some excellent tech articles.  But something totally unexpected happened.
The bike was Too Rich on the top end!  Idle jetting was alright, midrange felt okay, but anywhere above 5500rpm would turn into a blubbery mess.  Could not pass go, and already lost the $200 on parts and labor. 

This was with 152.5 mains on a 250cc cylinder and the needle clip set to the leanest notch.  Tried 150 mains, still had a rich bog at Wide Open Throttle.  Floats were 3mm higher than stock, so that was brought back down.  Still no dice.  Could not make it to the redline without bogging.  Midrange felt a little weaker, so the 152.5's were put back in.

Was under the assumption that maybe this WOT issue was from improper slide lift.  So began some experimenting with different springs in the carbs.  Going softer, while making the bike launch superbly, did not cure the trouble.  This was where the local hardware store came through with a spring that was slightly stiffer, bigger around and little shorter than stock.  Installing this stiffer spring gave more usable throttle, but could still bog at 6500-7000rpm.  Following this improvement, went a little nutty and tried both the stock spring and the hardware store spring together.  This proved to be too much, as the top end was still trouble, and now the mid range began to suffer.  Removed the stock spring, and hit the books.

After staring at circuit diagrams of these mikuni cv's, reading about slide profiles to improve air flow, carb porting (and why not to do it), and dyno A/F ratio charts.  Another "AHA!" moment came to mind.

Main Air Jet.  A press fit brass jet linked to the emulsifier.  One thing that had not been changed.  Though 6sigma, in their wisdom, did provide a tiny tiny drill bit, that was just a smidge larger than this air hole.  At this point, the entire weekend had been spent trying every configuration available.  Depending on throttle position, the machine would accelerate smoothly.  The tuning was close, just need a little more air at WOT.  Determined to make this damn bike run, the main air jet got drilled.

Carbs back on, started up, headed down the driveway - bike starts to sputter.  Crap.  An unsmooth idle and a couple of backfires.  The ignition was cutting out!  Battery voltage 11.8 - No more test rides for the day.

Pulled it off the charger the next morning and gave it the kick.  Idles nice, rev is a little slow through the low end.  Fine tune the pilot screws and got that a bit snappier.  Time to find out if drilling the main air jet did what I hoped it would.

Now the bike does 110.  Ton Up! 

Took a lot of black magic voodoo and frustrated smoke breaks.  But the problem of rich bog at WOT is solved!  Have a smooth wall of power from 2500rpm to Redline.  As well as a new speed record for a custom cafe racer.

TL;DR -
Put pods on mikuni CV's and it sucked.  Bigger jets helped, but could not hold throttle wide open without bogging.
Solved problem with over-rich jetting by installing stiffer slide springs and drilling the Main Air Jet one size larger.
Success

Hopefully this odd bit of agricultural engineering can encourage people to rethink their stance on pod filtering constant velocity carbs.  It can be made to work with simple, off the shelf modifications!

 
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 05:54:07 PM by BomberMann650 »

Offline garyS-NJ

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 150
Re: Cowmann's No Bull PODS on CV carb tuning writeup
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2018, 06:04:41 PM »
All across the internet, motorcycle forum members are annoyed with this single question;
Quote
Installed pods on XXX bike.  Why doesn't run right?

Usually the bike has some form of Constant Velocity carb and nearly everyone says to put the airbox back on.  Others just type YOU WERE WARNED and include an angry face.
Naturally, this ominous advice was ignored.  K&N cones were installed on some notoriously crappy 3 circuit mikuni cv carbs.  Causing the bike to run like total garbage.

Knowing that pods would "lean out the mix" - bigger jets were ordered and installed.  6sigma provided the kit and some excellent tech articles.  But something totally unexpected happened.
The bike was Too Rich on the top end!  Idle jetting was alright, midrange felt okay, but anywhere above 5500rpm would turn into a blubbery mess.  Could not pass go, and already lost the $200 on parts and labor. 

This was with 152.5 mains on a 250cc cylinder and the needle clip set to the leanest notch.  Tried 150 mains, still had a rich bog at Wide Open Throttle.  Floats were 3mm higher than stock, so that was brought back down.  Still no dice.  Could not make it to the redline without bogging.  Midrange felt a little weaker, so the 152.5's were put back in.

Was under the assumption that maybe this WOT issue was from improper slide lift.  So began some experimenting with different springs in the carbs.  Going softer, while making the bike launch superbly, did not cure the trouble.  This was where the local hardware store came through with a spring that was slightly stiffer, bigger around and little shorter than stock.  Installing this stiffer spring gave more usable throttle, but could still bog at 6500-7000rpm.  Following this improvement, went a little nutty and tried both the stock spring and the hardware store spring together.  This proved to be too much, as the top end was still trouble, and now the mid range began to suffer.  Removed the stock spring, and hit the books.

After staring at circuit diagrams of these mikuni cv's, reading about slide profiles to improve air flow, carb porting (and why not to do it), and dyno A/F ratio charts.  Another "AHA!" moment came to mind.

Main Air Jet.  A press fit brass jet linked to the emulsifier.  One thing that had not been changed.  Though 6sigma, in their wisdom, did provide a tiny tiny drill bit, that was just a smidge larger than this air hole.  At this point, the entire weekend had been spent trying every configuration available.  Depending on throttle position, the machine would accelerate smoothly.  The tuning was close, just need a little more air at WOT.  Determined to make this damn bike run, the main air jet got drilled.

Carbs back on, started up, headed down the driveway - bike starts to sputter.  Crap.  An unsmooth idle and a couple of backfires.  The ignition was cutting out!  Battery voltage 11.8 - No more test rides for the day.

Pulled it off the charger the next morning and gave it the kick.  Idles nice, rev is a little slow through the low end.  Fine tune the pilot screws and got that a bit snappier.  Time to find out if drilling the main air jet did what I hoped it would.

Now the bike does 110.  Ton Up! 

Took a lot of black magic voodoo and frustrated smoke breaks.  But the problem of rich bog at WOT is solved!  Have a smooth wall of power from 2500rpm to Redline.  As well as a new speed record for a custom cafe racer.

TL;DR -
Put pods on mikuni CV's and it sucked.  Bigger jets helped, but could not hold throttle wide open without bogging.
Solved problem with over-rich jetting by installing stiffer slide springs and drilling the Main Air Jet one size larger.
Success

Hopefully this odd bit of agricultural engineering can encourage people to rethink their stance on pod filtering constant velocity carbs.  It can be made to work with simple, off the shelf modifications!

 
What kind of bike and carbs?

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

76 harley stroker FL
83 Yamaha XJ550 Maxim
78 CB750F3

Offline BomberMann650

  • Holy Cow! I'm a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,422
  • Dr. Bovinestein iBa#80333
Re: Cowmann's No Bull PODS on CV carb tuning writeup
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2018, 06:54:12 PM »
78 XS750 triple
Stock motor and carbs (like mikuni bs34)
Had the gumption to do a frame mod forever eliminating the airbox.  A free flowing exhaust was fabbed for it.
Had to make it work and thats how I did it.  An unlikely change from stock and conventional wisdom!

Offline bolo87

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: Cowmann's No Bull PODS on CV carb tuning writeup
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2019, 04:21:56 PM »
What size main jet did you end up with?
Cheers
Josh

Offline Kelly E

  • Geriatric Hooligan
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,365
Re: Cowmann's No Bull PODS on CV carb tuning writeup
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2019, 06:15:48 PM »
Kind of did the same thing to an 81' GS1100E with Mikuni CV carbs. We got the bike not running and it had stock exhaust with K&N pods. The main jets had no numbers on the but we figured out they were 160's and stock is 107.5. We put in new 160 main fuel jets and once we had cleaned the carbs it ran OK but the top end was weak. There was a bigger set of air jets in the bag so I pulled the 160 air jets and put in the 170 air jets. Problem solved, now it just makes me grin when I wack the throttle open. 8)
Never Give Up - Never Surrender

The Rust Bros. Garage Collection
1974 Honda CB 550 K0                                            1971 MGB/GT
1975 Honda CB 400F Super Sport                          1972 MGB/GT
1977 Kawasaki KZ 1000 LTD                                   1985 GMC S15
1978 Kawasaki KL 250
1980 Suzuki GS 1100E
1982 Honda CB 900F Super Sport
1983 Honda CB 1100F
1984 Honda VF 700S Sabre
1984 Honda VF 1000F Interceptor
1990 Moto Guzzi 1000 Le Mans
1994 Kawasaki Concours ZG 1000A9
2005 Harley Davidson Fat Boy

Offline low-side

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 214
Re: Cowmann's No Bull PODS on CV carb tuning writeup
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2019, 07:10:01 PM »
Another thing to look out for is that some pods mounting boot will obscure the orifices in the air horn of CV carbs.  Careful trimming can usually fix that.  Good job on getting her running right.

Offline CBJoe

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,975
Re: Cowmann's No Bull PODS on CV carb tuning writeup
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2019, 06:16:48 AM »
I actually fought this on my '79 Triple with Pods...are you carbs the MK2s?

Can you post the specs of what your final Jet and Needle settings were including the drill-bit size you used on the main airjet?  I sold my triple to a friend, but we're gonna get it running and riding again in the spring.

Cheers,Joe
'07 Bonneville Black
'15 Moto Guzzi California 1400
CB750K2 Hot Rod Revival http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,171693.0.html
'65 CB77
'66 CM91 (C90'ish)

Offline Bodi

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,696
Re: Cowmann's No Bull PODS on CV carb tuning writeup
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2019, 07:27:28 PM »
Nice to see some facts based on experience rather than the parroting of "rawwk! Use the stock airbox, pods are satan's work". Pods may be a PITA to tune but it can be done... blame yourself if you tried and failed, not them.