Author Topic: It's smokin and scary down under....(engine blues high and low)  (Read 2674 times)

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2timer

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It's smokin and scary down under....(engine blues high and low)
« on: January 22, 2007, 10:48:02 PM »
Hello,
I recently bought a near completed project, K2 with K4 engine. The bike ran and sounded great. Looked nice but hoped I hadn’t made a mistake as it needed some general work to bring it all together, tyres, and to be registered. The real worries were the motor was noisy, and it blew a lot of whitish smoke. Hoped it was camchain noise and figured I could get the top end done (and maybe I could live with the smoke for a while.) I realised after I bought it that most of the noise goes away when the clutch lever is pulled in. Negotiated a price that I hoped wasn’t unbelievably stupid, considering 1, I really liked the bike, and 2, a top end rebuild probably had to be done. I had actually walked away from it after making what I thought was a low offer, although not as low as I had considered offering. He came back to me and I eventually bought it.

The bike had sat for eight years, after a breakdown. Turned out it had 2 damaged valves. I spoke to the mechanic who fixed that. He had also checked the motor over without pulling it apart, bores, camchain, end float or whatever they do. He said that he told the owner that, to the best of his knowledge, it was good to go, although compression was down on one cyl to 120 and up to 145 on the others. However it was smoking when I saw it.

Being unregistered I only had several short rides before and after purchase. I got it registered then discovered that after about 15 minutes riding at low speed the oil light flickered then stayed on. This was complicated by the idle rising from 1100 to 2000 and pipe 3 wasn’t as hot as the others. When the bike cooled the light was off after idle
 
When I dropped the sump plate, I discovered many small pieces of metal of various sizes and one piece about an inch or more long, half inch wide and about 1/4 inch thick. You can see it in the pictures I will add later. Smooth rounded outside, inside a torn area and a hole drilled up the middle. I can feel some grit in a sludge on bottom of the oil tank, although the oil filter folds didn’t seem to have any metal in them. So, suddenly it went from “maybe it won’t be too bad” to “that’s gonna hurt!”

Finally to my question. Obviously no one can tell what it is like without pulling it apart, but I am wondering if it is worth pulling apart after that junk circulating through the motor.  I was told it gets pretty expensive when you get into the bottom end of these things. Would I be better off trying to buy another motor (which may be as bad as mine).

It’s complicated somewhat by the fact that the two K2 bikes I have, and a spare, damaged motor that came with the bike, are all K4 engines, and the motor in my old K2 is probably flogged to death. If I am going to spend a lot of money on a motor I wouldn’t mind getting a K2 engine, to complement either of the bikes. 

So that’s where the whole sorry tale sits at the moment. I will check out the other 2 engines. I know this is long, just wanted to paint the picture and give as much info as I could. Any thoughts, other than gullible, naive, stupid, is this bloke for real, etc?

Thanks
« Last Edit: January 23, 2007, 04:17:45 AM by 2timer »

Offline mwohlenhaus

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Re: It's smokin and scary down under
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2007, 11:40:05 PM »
I am not gonna lie, if that piece of aluminum was any bigger, say the size of a small car, then I would be worried...j/k  It sounds like maybe the main bearings on the crank are shot, cause nothing from the top end is gonna make it to the bootom being that big.  And the tranny has ball bearings.  With that much metal in the pan, you got nothing to lose, buy a repair book and tear it down. the crank is most likely gonna be shot, as is the cases if in fact it is the bearings.

Offline 750goes

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Re: It's smokin and scary down under
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2007, 12:07:29 AM »
holy crap batman - lets see the photos...but it does not sound good................there are two bottom ends (complete and unsplit) sitting in the local wreckers - will get engine numbers for you tomorrow - do not know what year they may be from though..and maybe a few photos if you are interested......located in Penrith NSW......you may be lucky and its only top end valves...

Offline jonbuoy

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Re: It's smokin and scary down under
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2007, 12:59:43 AM »
Gidday... There was a second hand crank going on TradeMe.co.nz on a while ago, I put a bid ($6!!) but it didn't meet reserve - I can ask them to relist it as I have their details if you want.

Offline bryanj

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Re: It's smokin and scary down under....(engine blues high and low)
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2007, 05:23:38 AM »
If you can refit a torsion bar and get it right you can rebuild a 750

Pull it out and strip it then work from there
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

upperlake04

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Re: It's smokin and scary down under....(engine blues high and low)
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2007, 07:04:57 AM »
750 upper and lower cases

Offline jonbuoy

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Re: It's smokin and scary down under....(engine blues high and low)
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2007, 12:04:16 PM »
I've only done a head gasket on a two stroke before doing this  top end rebuild on my CB750, these engines seem nice to work on when you finally get it out the frame....  Only the gearchange  stuff would worry me as I haven't ever touched it before, I got a second hand haynes manual which is pretty good, there are some really nice zoomable  exploded diagrams on here - hondachopper.com 
 

Offline martin99

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Re: It's smokin and scary down under....(engine blues high and low)
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2007, 03:32:02 PM »
From a newbie who's just rebuilt his first one - go for it! You'll find the advice on here incredible. When I did mine, I photographed each and every part of the stripdown and stored it on my hard drive - proved invaluable come the rebuild. Haynes is pretty good, but you need to note position of springs, o rings etc cos Haynes's pics aren't always that detailed.
Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline 750goes

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Re: It's smokin and scary down under....(engine blues high and low)
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2007, 03:58:31 PM »
Is it possible the large piece of metal is part of the piston skirt - that may be a bit more comforting if it is just a piston that has started to disintegrate...

The first case I found this morning - pretty greasy but is not stuck at all - I have a few photos will put up tonight - and hopefully wrecker will get the other motor out where I can take some photos of it for you

First engine number is cb750e-2422511

Offline bryanj

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Re: It's smokin and scary down under....(engine blues high and low)
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2007, 03:53:34 AM »
Worst case is that its from the boss arround the oil gallery between cases (left hand side of pictures in middle). That wouold junk the cases , but you have spares. (also has the chain ever come off and the case filled with putty?)
As to the K2 K4 issue, we only ever had the K2 model in UK but the engine numbers had to keep going up as Honda were building them, only differences K2 to K6 were cosmetic and any Engine mods were done by year and serial number so a "later" engine could very easily have been "stock" from the factory.

Conclusion:- Rip it out and crack on---all on here will help, get a Honda manual, which assumes you are a mechanic, and if possible a parts book, crack open a new cheque book and get on with it
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline bryanj

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Re: It's smokin and scary down under....(engine blues high and low)
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2007, 08:05:40 AM »
If i saw any Honda with matching numbers i would be VERY suspicious and unfortunately nobody, not even Honda, can tell you anything except when a frame number left the line. Try www.partscd.com  for a parts cd from Canada, about $20 US as i remember
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline martin99

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Re: It's smokin and scary down under....(engine blues high and low)
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2007, 02:50:17 PM »
you should be able to find a downloadable shop manual here-just make sure you pick one in the language you want!
http://www.honda4fun.com/man_officina/man_officina.html
Parts manuals come up often on EBay, worth checking the UK site now and then if you're not already. Got those barrels off yet?
Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

1977 CB750 F2
1958 Norton Model 99
2011 Triumph Street Triple 675

Offline 750goes

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Re: It's smokin and scary down under....(engine blues high and low)
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2007, 03:28:22 PM »
the other engine number is cb750e- 2726213 - it was a lot cleaner...
after looking at both bottom ends (I will definitely post a picture tonight of the first one anyway) they appear to be ok, the second motor is a lot cleaner and spins freely..no barrels on either motor, first one has pistons..

Offline bryanj

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Re: It's smokin and scary down under....(engine blues high and low)
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2007, 07:05:49 AM »
Honda just kept on making the K2 for us Brits and you antipodeans as we aint as fussy as the yanks. 500's are even worse as Honda were all at the same time building K1 for the UK, K2 for the US and 550 K1 for the US
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

K1k2k3

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Re: It's smokin and scary down under....(engine blues high and low)
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2007, 02:27:53 PM »
You can view the partslist on line:

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb750-four_model14344/

These partlists will show you any differences between the UK, Europe, North America etc. CB750s

PS - Frame and engine vins do not match.

Offline bryanj

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Re: It's smokin and scary down under....(engine blues high and low)
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2007, 09:42:31 AM »
If the chain has damaged the case nothing short of wleding and carefull machining will hold for any length of time, cheapest and most sensible idea is a "new" second hand bottom end with your top end checked out and fitted
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!