Author Topic: "The Five Limits" (Read 2963 times)

SSSG · « **on:** November 21, 2019, 12:08:15 PM »

...continued from the proposal outlined in the new members thread, "The Universe of SSSG".

This is where we will start: a blank piece of paper. That will be enough for today.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

calj737 · « **Reply #1 on:** November 21, 2019, 01:53:03 PM »

Not to be "snarky" but, that is not "blank"; it is ruled. I thought this build would only have 5 rules?

Stev-o · « **Reply #2 on:** November 21, 2019, 02:31:39 PM »

Quote from: calj737 on November 21, 2019, 01:53:03 PM

I thought this build would only have 5 rules?

Or maybe 1 rule: There are no rules!

Subscribed.

kerryb · « **Reply #3 on:** November 21, 2019, 06:55:37 PM »

The rules appear to be a little "fuzzy" and variable. I'll need to keep an eye on this one.

SSSG · « **Reply #4 on:** November 22, 2019, 07:05:45 AM »

We have here a proposal for a modest, unassuming build, which is best stated as a question: What if, in 1975, Honda offered a GT version of the 550-F? One that the owner could, in a couple of hours, prep for a weekend of racing in a stock sportbike class. What would it be like?

Already I have to step out of my own shoes and into those of Honda's engineers, marketers, accountants etc circa 1975. The bike would have to be available at price point below the 750. I think that would be a given.

The specs might be something like this, I think: compared to the 550-F, the GT would be 20-30 pounds lighter, have a larger fuel capacity, 18 inch front/rear wheels with alloy rims, 53-55hp up from 50, a lower handlebar and triple gauges in a more aerodynamic configuration. It would still have a two person saddle, but a bit sleeker in back. And that's it. They could accomplish that and still come in at a sticker price that would sell bikes, but without threatening the status of the mothership CB750.

It's easy to visualize a version, which I've done here. It's nothing but a pre-disassembly 550 with the larger volume 750 tank (real) and an 18 inch front wheel (photoshop)The seat is the only completed part. It was bloody murder to make. I've already posted the photo in the member's intro thread- so this will be the last time. The other photo is there because I like it, and I'm worn out with the bike pic

The next post will have to be "The Five Limits". They are the only indispensable part of the whole project, and the best guarantor of its success. Because the bar I've set will probably end up being higher than it looks. And that is where the real story begins.

Stev-o · « **Reply #5 on:** November 22, 2019, 07:41:12 AM »

Quote from: SSSG on November 22, 2019, 07:05:45 AM

The specs might be something like this, I think: compared to the 550-F, the GT would be 20-30 pounds lighter, have a larger fuel capacity, 18 inch front/rear wheels with alloy rims, 53-55hp up from 50, a lower handlebar and triple gauges in a more aerodynamic configuration. It would still have a two person saddle, but a bit sleeker in back. And that's it.

Would need better brakes, double disc in front at the very least.
And better areo with the addition of a small fairing.

calj737 · « **Reply #6 on:** November 22, 2019, 07:44:15 AM »

Skip the third gauge and drop the biposto seat. No road racing bike has rear pegs or accommodations for a two-up configuration. Not sure more fuel is a true requirement either.

web · « **Reply #7 on:** November 22, 2019, 08:03:23 AM »

GT has two meanings... Race or Grand Touring.

Shedding weight is gonna be the difficult part though,especially if you add items like extra brakes and fairing.

SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan · « **Reply #8 on:** November 22, 2019, 09:19:08 AM »

Quote from: calj737 on November 22, 2019, 07:44:15 AM

Skip the third gauge and drop the biposto seat. No road racing bike has rear pegs or accommodations for a two-up configuration. Not sure more fuel is a true requirement either.

Agreed. Use a cut-off wheel for the rear peg mounts, replace the stock seat with a lighter single seat. No need for "touring" or endurance range. If you want to shave weight, though, replace the stock steel tank with an aluminum tank. In addition, if you go any lower on your bars, you will want rearsets for a more aerodynamic riding position. You should also upgrade your brakes. A single stock brake is not going to cut it on a track.

Scott S · « **Reply #9 on:** November 22, 2019, 09:48:13 AM »

I like the concept. But are you talking about "as would/could have been built in 1975"? Or a modern version of such.

If 1975, then it probably would have had dual disc. Possibly a two up seat. Look at the Super Bikes of that era. That's how they actually did it.

If it's a modern interpretation, there are lighter, better performing brakes, etc.

calj737 · « **Reply #10 on:** November 22, 2019, 09:50:37 AM »

A very good example of what you describe is what BMW did with the R90. Look at a stock R90, then at an R90s ridden by Reg Pridmore. That single move by them probably saved their brand in all candor.

https://www.bike-urious.com/no-reserve-reg-pridmore-race-replica-1974-bmw-r90s/
https://re-psycle.com/Motorcycles-BMW-R90-6-1976-Lithopolis-OH-a0f017e3-6e80-4ce8-b412-a69f0150fe2c

SSSG · « **Reply #11 on:** November 24, 2019, 08:33:49 AM »

This is all high-grade information I am being given here, every word. I can't reply to any of it individually just yet, because I have to keep momentum. But I have read every single comment and will have to think about each one, since they have been written by men that are way smarter than me.

And once you hear something, you can't un-hear it. So I'll have to consider all of them whether I feel like it or not.

Adaptability to "weekend stock class racing" has drawn the most attention, and my knowledge bank of what that would be like in 1975 is zero. So, for the time being, let's shelve that item until I can replace it with something that is better informed, realistic, and that I can make with the resources I have.

The proposal ought mainly be to excite the imagination and get it moving in a basic direction- I've often chained myself to it, and it doesn't make for happiness.

It is critical that the end-user purpose, the "what is this bike for, exactly?" be very carefully defined. But its early in the game for that, because I don't know what options there are.

That is where you come in- throwing things at me that I didn't know, or things I had no idea existed.

There aren't words for how valuable that is. The end result, whatever it is, is going to be much better for you being part of it. Joining the forum, and documenting every phase of the process may be one of the wiser things I've done. That is kind of neat, I think. I'll probably never meet you, and yet this bike will be end up being a kind of a team effort.

The next logical step is to put downthe "Five Limits". These have all been very well thought through- they are basic principles of building that I have set down for myself to follow. They aren't going to change much. Later it occurred to me that they are much like the unwritten, internal guidelines I followed when building completely unrelated things that succeeded beyond my hopes.

I've already put a hundred hours or so into this bike, thinking I was doing "the build"- but in fact it was just a recon/education/assessment mission. And not even a very good one. That was a gut punch.

I rolled it back outside and left it alone for two weeks. I bought that 750 tank and set in on and thought, alright, I think we are Go. The look is right and gives me something I need. What is the right thing to do now?

"Join that forum, document what you're doing, avail yourself of help for once in your life" was the answer. It looks like it was the right one.

Next post will be "Five Limits".
Then, later today or tomorrow, a video walkaround of what we have, whats been done or is ready to do, what our resources are.
-----

SSSG · « **Reply #12 on:** November 24, 2019, 08:43:24 AM »

"The Five Limits"

1) All build decisions, all selection of parts and their integration must be done the "Honda Way" (see end) In the future I will just refer to this as "The Way".

2) When making changes, adherence to the intended purposes of the bike- which I will define later- must come before looks. Corollary: changes that might beautify can be considered only if they contribute to purpose, reliability, and rider fit.

3) All smaller choices must be in perfect accord with the original proposal: what if, Honda had offered a GT version of the 550? The basic configuration and specs have already been defined. An attractively modest appearance with the highest attention to purpose is the mantra.

4) Most sportbike enthusiasts will make a couple of aftermarket mods (i.e. the header) where there's no rule to obey except "Cause that's how I like it". I get to do a small number of those too, and I think I know what they are. First, the header, of course- since sound quality is both art and science. I've done my research. Second, the three gauges must identical in size. This may end up being one of the more difficult puzzles to solve. I have looked at thousands of images and many catalogues and haven't seen anything like it. In every mfr series, there is always a master and his smaller servants. There's a way to do it, it may just take time.

The other option is no gauges at all- except a shift warning light driven by an underseat digital tach. The underlying assumption being that our intuition is far more reliable gauge than we credit it for, but unless forced to rely on it we never find out. This would make for an interesting riding experience- it is worth looking at. It may be so eccentric looking (which is very un-Way) that it won't pass.

5) The project may be called finished when this single goal has been met: suppose there were an average dude who had some ride time on both this motorcycle, and a 2019 500 cc sportbike. Asked which one he would prefer take for an all day 300 mile ride... there should be a good chance he would choose this one. It's this imaginary dude that I need to keep in mind. He'll make me work the hardest, because I want to be first pick. Eventually I will have to conduct this test in real time.

This limit will be the toughest to hit. I'm going to have to get not just 20 pounds off, but more like 50 or 60, without affecting the overall appearance. The rest will be in numerous small refinements that I can't anticipate until a basic iteration is up and running.

That concludes "The Five Limits"- long version. I'll make a business card version to put up in my bathroom mirror.

re: "The Honda Way". Anyone here can define that, I think. My own understanding comes from reading about the development of three very different vehicles, and thinking on the common factors: the 1973 cvcc, the RC166, and a 125cc motorbike geared for 3rd world consumers. The history of this one is the most fascinating of all. The story behind these three would give most anyone a clear idea of what "The Honda Way" is.

Afternote: Writing is exhausting. Thankfully, the bulk of it is finished. The only other time time I will need to write at this length and detail is when defining exactly what I want to be able to do on this bike- the purpose.

The early CVCC I mentioned- one of my Dad's wealthy buddies got one. He drove it until 1990. He could have afforded anything. But nothing else out there fit his needs as well as that little car did.

SSSG · « **Reply #13 on:** November 24, 2019, 09:41:17 AM »

Tomorrow- time to look at bike and parts, assess all resources and generate possibilities. The stuff we are really here for.

Meantime, a commercial break is desperately needed. I don't have a TV, so I made something up.

"PSA from the Advance Auto Parts school of cosmetology"

Scott S · « **Reply #14 on:** November 24, 2019, 03:34:20 PM »

For the gauge/dash, look into Speedhut. You can choose the font, background, logo, needle style, etc. You can also swap the tach and speedo.
Of course, they also over separate tach and speedo.

Curious: what is the 3rd gauge?

SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan · « **Reply #15 on:** November 25, 2019, 09:00:04 AM »

Interesting design brief.

I would probably call the Honda way, What Would Soichiro Do (WWSD)? versus what would modern Honda Corporation do (as ruled by its bean counters).

flatlander · « **Reply #16 on:** November 25, 2019, 09:27:18 AM »

the 5 limits are not so much limitations but principles.

point 2 refers to "the intended purposes of the bike- which I will define later- ". i think that's the most important part which should be put at the very beginning. it will give you the most direction.

SSSG · « **Reply #17 on:** November 25, 2019, 02:02:44 PM »

Yes you are absolutely right sir.
I wish my brain worked with that kind of instinctive logic- in fact it does, but only when I'm in a medium I'm familiar with. It takes about 7 years for that kind of fluency to develop. Right now I'm at 7 weeks.

So I thank you for the centering and I will get to purpose right after the "Walkaround" below.

Last- to the fellow who told me about Speedhut with photo of gorgeous tach: thank you brother- the referral to speedhut may save my sanity.

I hope the use of video for actual show and tell and "Here is what we are doing and thinking" is ok with everyone.

ok finally the real stuff.

"WALKAROUND/ASSESSMENT OF BIKE, COMPONENTS, SOME POSSIBILITIES"

Scott S · « **Reply #18 on:** November 25, 2019, 04:33:55 PM »

Those shocks in your video, while pretty, will be very stiff. Look into Ikon or YSS.

And you're on the right track with the brakes. Braided lines, EBC pads and shoes (be sure to sand off the paint from around the edge of the front pads). Godfrey's makes drilled and lightened rotors, but it looks like you have that covered, too.

SSSG · « **Reply #19 on:** November 26, 2019, 06:00:13 AM »

Thank you for that- esp for counsel on braking and shocks. fortunately those were inexpensive, and no big deal to replace with something better. And, since the comments above on braking still nag me, I'll have to find a way to go one better on braking, it will merely have to stick with being single disc, OEM appearance.

"Flatlanders" comment was the one that kept me awake last night. I consider it a "take immediate action" item.

We need, for the integrity of the of both the thread and the final result, to start over from scratch, and get things in correct order. The vision refinement stage is the most important of all.

From your standpoint, few things are more frustrating than trying to help someone who has no clue where he is.

If I proceed in a stepwise, logical fashion that everyone can relate to, the feedback/comments/suggestions will more on target. You'll be spared the annoyance of playing guessing games, and we'll end up with a superior bike. My standards are ruthless. Here, they need to be, since I will be entrusting life and limb to the final product.

Nothing could be more fun to be riding something whose excellence is a shared effort. That would be a lifetime first for me. I have never once made a thing with help. If I could do this project without help, I would. But I can't.

My member intro could have been one line: "Hi, Im Gerry and Im here because I dont have much choice"

So, without throwing away what we have, let's start the thread over from scratch. Crystal clear, outline fashion, just like we learned in school-

Scott S · « **Reply #20 on:** November 26, 2019, 06:15:08 AM »

Whatever you do, don't search for "R6 front end swap".

That gets you a stock appearing (at first glance) front end with modern performance.

SSSG · « **Reply #21 on:** November 26, 2019, 06:52:39 AM »

Outline of Proposal/Vision Refinement Stage

1) What do we have (the bike we are starting with and person rebuilding it)
2) What will the bike be used for?
3) Regarding changes to be made what are the limits (esthetic, economic, equipmental, time)
4) Define, as best as you can overall general goal in quality, in real-life terms. And, since, like it or not, it is a fact of life that regular everyday people will react to it, what kind of reactions are affirmative for you?
5) Formal listing of each system (lighting, engine, drivetrain, controls etc), your goals for each one, and the changes you intend to make, and their contribution to the whole.

----

That is a proper beginning. So, can you all indulge me in pretending this is where the thread really starts? We want a bike that looks pretty, not much out of the ordinary, but riding it needs to be a fourth dimensional experience, in a multitude of little ways you barely notice. We will accept nothing less. We can even call it "Project 550-4D"

Flatlander, thank you sir. You get today's Cavalry Prize. We are now on course.

We will proceed by going through the outline above. Although this is a start-over, I will avoid needlessly repeating things I have already said.
Video also seems like the fast-track for losing people so I will be ditching that, too.

SSSG · « **Reply #22 on:** November 26, 2019, 10:44:56 AM »

It may be too late for a "recovery of interest" fix, so for the general welfare I am going to shut this thread down. It has already accomplished the most it can.

If a new thread is started, it will be under that name "550-4D", and will begin with the concrete outline above, methodically filling it out piece by piece, with photos.

Thank you for your feedback, sirs.

GH

flatlander · « **Reply #23 on:** November 26, 2019, 01:27:59 PM »

don't be too hard on yourself. i'd say, just carry on here. i think once you start figuring out your goals with the bike a bit more concretely, you'll get more input.

your idea sounds like it could turn into something interesting. i was actually thinking of writing a few more comments to what you posted so far but got home unexpectedly late today due to some accident. so it will have to be another day.

Scott S · « **Reply #24 on:** November 26, 2019, 01:30:40 PM »

Yeah.... just keep this one going. I'm interested in seeing how it turns out.

News:

Author Topic: "The Five Limits" (Read 2963 times)