Author Topic: Cb550k The "learning" motor (is un-stuck!)  (Read 3080 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline kerryb

  • Not a very
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,160
  • 78 750k 74 cb550k, '83GL1100 FXSTC, 1979 Wilmac
Cb550k The "learning" motor (is un-stuck!)
« on: November 26, 2019, 04:57:27 PM »
I bought a '75 550 motor to practice on.  I didn't want to "learn" (break stuff) on the 550 motor in my new '78 project bike because it runs!  So I brought home a motor to practice assembly/ disassembly procedures on.  It was cheap (almost free) so the fact that it didn't turn over didn't bother me.  I put acetone/atf mix in the cylinders to soak, but this is where the trouble starts.  There is no clutch basket, so I can't try to free it with the kicker. The only place to grab the crank is the flywheel (cover is off)  but I don't want to damage it with a pipe wrench, so I need to make a big wood handle to clamp/grab the flywheel to apply "rocking" pressure to the crank.  I have been hitting the notches in the alternator rotor with an aluminum bar and a hammer...no movement yet.  I don't want to cut the cam chain yet, it still has value to me.
Question is, how hard can I hit this this before risking damage to the parts?  When I finish the big wood handle/clamp how much torque is safe to apply? 
Tonight I'll  hook up the little camera to see if I can see which cylinder has the sticking condition in it.  It would have been smart to keep track of which spark plug came out of which cylinder because one of them has a hint of rust on it, doh!

One more question or two;  how much acetone/atf mixture per cylinder?  Should I pull the oil pan to see if the mixture is getting through?
Thanks...all part of the adventure.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 05:57:09 AM by kerryb »
intrigued by the wail...seduced by the scream.

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,184
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: Cb550k The "learning" motor is stuck!
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2019, 05:06:09 PM »
Use a hd 19mm(i think) socket with a long breaker bar on the bolt holding the rotor
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Scott S

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,230
Re: Cb550k The "learning" motor is stuck!
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2019, 05:11:56 PM »
 Or try an oil filter wrench on the alternator rotor. The strap type of wrench.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline minimo

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,202
  • 1977 CB550F 1975 CB400F 1959 Ducati 200 Americano
Re: Cb550k The "learning" motor is stuck!
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2019, 05:58:10 PM »
You can turn the crank from the big flanged hex on the points side (the outer big hex part, not the M10 hex bolt in the middle of it). A big Crescent wrench works to get around the big flange hex and turn clockwise.

Before turning, I’d remove the spark plugs to make it easier to turn - sure, Shaprie mark their corresponding numbers to keep track where they came from. Also, that you don’t have oil in your engine is a concern; could be part of the reason why it’s hard to get a turn. Try to fog or spray with the straw some lubricating oil around the gears and crank if possible.
It’d also be a good idea to get the engine in neutral.

Fearing mangled rings on the pistons if the engine is seized. If that’s the case, plastic wedges, spreaders and screw jacks will be your best friend.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline ekpent

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,508
  • To many bikes-but lookin' for more
Re: Cb550k The "learning" motor is stuck!
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2019, 06:50:08 PM »
 Heat does not hurt either. Give those cylinder barrels a good warm up with a heat gun while they are soaking in your atf concoction and as Bryan said breaker bar on the alt bolt. Have rags ready if it breaks loose and be aware of where the lube will shoot,it will be messy. Try to keep it off the Ferrari  :D  An old towel laying over the top will help contain it some. Good luck on breaking it free.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 06:52:19 PM by ekpent »

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,184
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: Cb550k The "learning" motor is stuck!
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2019, 06:56:00 PM »
NOOOO DO NOT try to turn using the big nut on the points side you will just destroy the advancer mechanism!!!!
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline kerryb

  • Not a very
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,160
  • 78 750k 74 cb550k, '83GL1100 FXSTC, 1979 Wilmac
Re: Cb550k The "learning" motor is stuck!
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2019, 08:14:26 PM »
This just gets better and better...and supports my decision to get a practice motor.  So I pulled the plugs to look inside for evidence of a rusty barrel.  My cheapo camera borescope couldn't focus on the issues and returned a fuzzy black, red, and white mosaic.  Decided to pull the pan for a look and rolled it over on the engine stand (without putting the plugs back in)  poured acetone/atf mix onto the shop floor through the open plug holes,  which tells us the rings are holding!
Pulled oil pan off and peered at all the water still inside, so I rollod it back upsight and poured the rest of the water into a catch pan.
I can't damage the advancer because there isn't one!
Having difficulty with waiting for the atf stuff to do it's thing so I tried to remove the cam sprocket.  I could get the bolts undone, but there isn't enough room to remove them from the holes.  So I guess I have to wait, or cut the cam chain.
I'll wait a week before making that decision, it is after all a learning experience, boy am I learning!
intrigued by the wail...seduced by the scream.

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,184
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: Cb550k The "learning" motor is stuck!
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2019, 02:07:28 AM »
Its all learning! As an ex Honda mechanic i wish they had never put that big hex nut on the advancer as so many got wrecked by owners turning the motor over with a spanner on there
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline minimo

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,202
  • 1977 CB550F 1975 CB400F 1959 Ducati 200 Americano
Re: Cb550k The "learning" motor is stuck!
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2019, 07:34:31 AM »
Noted. It’s amazing how my advancer is still holding on then.

But the Big Nut is ok to get turns on when adjusting for timing, correct? I don’t see how using the kickstart or even getting turns on the alternator would be efficient while you’re trying to line up hard to read T and F markings


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline kakon864

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 60
Re: Cb550k The "learning" motor is stuck!
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2019, 07:40:34 AM »
You can turn it over by the advancer nut to do the timing IF you take all the plugs out. With the plugs in there is too much resistance from the compression and the advancer alignment pin can get bent.
1977 Honda CB550k
1978 Yamaha Dt250
1979 Yamaha XT500
1973 Kawasaki G5 100

Offline minimo

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,202
  • 1977 CB550F 1975 CB400F 1959 Ducati 200 Americano
Re: Cb550k The "learning" motor is stuck!
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2019, 07:45:20 AM »
Is the advancer alignment pin something Honda sells as a spare? If one can be fabricated, what is the best metal rod to use? 316 stainless ok? Hardened steel? How to treat for corrosion?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline kakon864

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 60
Re: Cb550k The "learning" motor is stuck!
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2019, 08:01:54 AM »
They don't sell one as far as I know. You could probably make one, but you would have to check it with an dial indicator. I've heard you can sometimes tap the pin back if it is off center. I've also noticed when shopping for advancers if the pin got moved too far it cracks the base of the advancer since it's close to the outer edge.
1977 Honda CB550k
1978 Yamaha Dt250
1979 Yamaha XT500
1973 Kawasaki G5 100

Offline Joewago

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 48
  • 1979 CB650
Re: Cb550k The "learning" motor is stuck!
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2019, 10:15:14 AM »
I snapped the alignment pin in my CB650 advancer just like that! Ace hardware sells pins, I found one that works. Anyways, sorry, kind of off topic.

On that same 650, I unfroze that engine (rings rusted to the cylinder wall) by putting it in top gear, rolling forward and popping the clutch. Roll backward, pop the clutch. Oh but you don't have a clutch basket...

This is your burner, right? Maybe once you get the head off you can just, like... Idk, smack on the tops of the pistons? That's probably bad. But I mean they're meant to handle immense pressures up top, right??

Offline kakon864

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 60
Re: Cb550k The "learning" motor is stuck!
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2019, 10:23:04 AM »
This is your burner, right? Maybe once you get the head off you can just, like... Idk, smack on the tops of the pistons? That's probably bad. But I mean they're meant to handle immense pressures up top, right??

If you are going to smack the pistons use wood in between the piston and hammer or you will damage the piston... also alternate what piston you are hitting.  But his problem is he can't rotate the cam to get gear and chain off, so the head is stuck on there. I actually had this problem on my cb550 that was seized. I ended up cutting the chain, but in hindsight I wish I bought the chain breaker tool, so I didn't waste a perfectly good chain (also the tool is around the same price as a quality chain).
1977 Honda CB550k
1978 Yamaha Dt250
1979 Yamaha XT500
1973 Kawasaki G5 100

Offline bochnak

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 239
    • How-To Motorcycle Repair Blog
Re: Cb550k The "learning" motor is stuck!
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2019, 11:24:22 AM »
How long did you let it soak for?

Let it soak for a week or 2. Just walk away and be patient.

I have top/bottom rebuild videos if you need help learning. See sig.

Offline kerryb

  • Not a very
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,160
  • 78 750k 74 cb550k, '83GL1100 FXSTC, 1979 Wilmac
Re: Cb550k The "learning" motor is stuck!
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2019, 12:12:20 PM »
That's good reading and advice from all, thank you.  I got the 'ol flycutter out and made a wrench for the flywheel (rotor), I'm guessing it was about 50 lbs of torque to pull the piston back down from what I believe is a rust ring in a cylinder.  sometimes I surprise myself with my "caveman" tools!  I think more than one cylinder has rust in it because the motor will only turn through about 120 degrees of rotation, but that much turns faily easily.
I got lucky with the bolts on the cam chain ring, there was just enough wiggle room to get both bolts out, then loosen the chain tension and slip the chain off the gear.
Question becomes, "What do I do now?  Should I pull the head to see the damage or do something else first?
intrigued by the wail...seduced by the scream.

Offline ekpent

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,508
  • To many bikes-but lookin' for more
Re: Cb550k The "learning" motor is UN- stuck!
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2019, 02:52:12 PM »
 Might as well just pull the head off if its just a practice engine and see what it looks like in there for fun. Wrap a wire or coat hanger around your cam chain and give her hell. If you can totally free up the pistons first though so the engine turns all the way though now the cylinder will come off easier later. As far as the engine only turning part way if it stops when any of the pistons are around TDC maybe there is crud filling the squish area.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 03:11:03 PM by ekpent »

Offline kerryb

  • Not a very
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,160
  • 78 750k 74 cb550k, '83GL1100 FXSTC, 1979 Wilmac
Re: Cb550k The "learning" motor is UN- stuck!
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2019, 03:41:59 PM »
That'll buff right out...right?
I had some fun bagging and tagging and pulling the head.  The rotor wrench came in handy with some blocks of wood to pull the pistons out of the cylinders.  Too bad that one cylinder was full of water because the rest of it looks pretty good to me.  The only casualty was the little rubber seal on the cam chain tensioner bolt, it fell inside, so I'll be on the lookout for it when I split the case.
intrigued by the wail...seduced by the scream.

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,184
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: Cb550k The "learning" motor is UN- stuck!
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2019, 03:52:50 PM »
Be ok for a 605 kit!!
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline kerryb

  • Not a very
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,160
  • 78 750k 74 cb550k, '83GL1100 FXSTC, 1979 Wilmac
Re: Cb550k The "learning" motor is UN- stuck!
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2019, 06:29:05 PM »
I've just been reading about that kind of upgrade (gentleman's express)  I would get the same satisfaction from bringing this engine back to stock form.  That would be a LOT less costly wouldn't it?   I don't know what rebuilding an engine really costs, never had to, but i'd like to be able to say I saved one from the scrap pile instead of parting it out.
Where do I start?  Hone the bad cylinder so it can be measured?  I've repaired valves and head gaskets, but never a whole engine before.
intrigued by the wail...seduced by the scream.

Offline Airborne 82nd

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 828
Re: Cb550k The "learning" motor is stuck!
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2019, 07:58:56 PM »
Noted. It’s amazing how my advancer is still holding on then.

But the Big Nut is ok to get turns on when adjusting for timing, correct? I don’t see how using the kickstart or even getting turns on the alternator would be efficient while you’re trying to line up hard to read T and F markings


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I find the kicker the best and easiest way to move the crank. The way I do it is to take all the slack out of the kicker (with plugs out)  and hold it with one hand over the rubber part and hit the back of that hand with the fist of my other hand gently moving the crank while looking for the T and F marks. this has served me well for 3 or 4 decades. Give it a try  ;)


Offline seanbarney41

  • not really that much younger than an
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,923
Re: Cb550k The "learning" motor is stuck!
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2019, 11:15:45 PM »
Noted. It’s amazing how my advancer is still holding on then.

But the Big Nut is ok to get turns on when adjusting for timing, correct? I don’t see how using the kickstart or even getting turns on the alternator would be efficient while you’re trying to line up hard to read T and F markings


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I find the kicker the best and easiest way to move the crank. The way I do it is to take all the slack out of the kicker (with plugs out)  and hold it with one hand over the rubber part and hit the back of that hand with the fist of my other hand gently moving the crank while looking for the T and F marks. this has served me well for 3 or 4 decades. Give it a try  ;)
yup, just quick bumps with your hand while watching the advancer markings...full stroke will be a fail
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,184
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: Cb550k The "learning" motor is UN- stuck!
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2019, 12:03:08 AM »
That block will need a rebore and oversize pistons, possibly liners if the rust is deep thats why i said 605 kit.
Head is same for all 500 and 550 so should be plenty of decent ones out there.
Bottom end needs stripping to check out bearings and selectors plus fit new cam and primary chains preferably with new dampers in primary gear.
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline kerryb

  • Not a very
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,160
  • 78 750k 74 cb550k, '83GL1100 FXSTC, 1979 Wilmac
Re: Cb550k The "learning" motor is UN- stuck!
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2019, 06:18:06 AM »
I've just been reading about that kind of upgrade (gentleman's express)  I would get the same satisfaction from bringing this engine back to stock form.  That would be a LOT less costly wouldn't it?   I don't know what rebuilding an engine really costs, never had to, but i'd like to be able to say I saved one from the scrap pile instead of parting it out.
Where do I start?  Hone the bad cylinder so it can be measured?  I've repaired valves and head gaskets, but never a whole engine before.
That motor is really toasted. It will cost you a lot of money to restore it to proper working order: pistons/rings, overbore, very likely all new crank bearings and rod bearings, the head will need immense work too. All this work and these parts are expensive and not DIY. Assembly labor is about the only thing you can perform yourself for a savings. But you will also need decent measurement tools and quality torque wrenches.

I'd expect a motor that neglected will also show signs of oiling problems in the head, on the cam, the cam journals and rockers. Then you need to assess the valves and guides.

I'm not a fan of 605 kits. It thins the cylinder liners for little to no power outcome. You can achieve a VERY healthy motor with 59mmm pistons (Wisecos), a hearty cam (126-00 or 126-20) and send the head off to Mike Rieck. A stage 3 workout from him will yield far more usable, reliable power than a 650 cam and 605 pistons.

At the end of it, you'll have over $5k tied up in parts and labor before assembly, make about 55HP, and have a bike worth little more than that. Know this going in and expect to fully lose all the capital in a resale transaction later. Point is: you can not recover money invested rebuilding a motor this trashed, no matter what the project end goal is. But you can and will enjoy the dog piss out of it, learn heaps, and have a fun bike to ride that you built. For whatever that is worth to you.
There's the voice of reason I was looking for.  I have two 550 and  three 750 motors in various states of health that I hope to put back on the road someday.  It all started with my first 750 parts bike that had a stuck motor.  I took the head off, found the rust ring at the top of cylinder 3 and said "someday, I'm going to fix this".  So I broke a ring putting it back together, wrapped it up in oily towels and plastic sheeting and thought, " I need to learn a bunch before tackling that"!   So this motor is all about that learning process, it's easier to proceed when you're not worried about making a mistake.  Last night I was trying to asses to condition of the cam and had trouble finding the info I needed as well as my plastigage wasn't big enough to measure the clearance that's there!  The cam journals have visible grooves you can feel with a fingertip.  My father-in-law made sure I was prepared to measure stuff ( surface plate, height gages, precision gage blocks, v-blocks, calipers and micrometers up the wazoo), I just need to get comfortable with measuring things accurately. 
I'm sure calj is right, this motor isn't worth the expense of parts, but will go a long way in getting me ready for the one that is worth it.  First purchase will be a cylinder hone so I can practice measuring the results.  I'm open to suggestions for that purchase.
Since there is no clutch basket, I was able to spin the gearset with my fingers and study the shifting action closely.  I FINALLY understand that jumble of parts that make the shift drum move one step at a time.  The dogs and shift forks look real good too, but we shall see.  Time to go read the hondaman book again (and again) , oh, and clean the shop!
Thanks, and now back to our regularly scheduled adventure...
intrigued by the wail...seduced by the scream.

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,184
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: Cb550k The "learning" motor is UN- stuck!
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2019, 06:57:23 AM »
BC 21418 flex hone on ebay is what i want to buy but shipping to UK is too expensive
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!