Topic: Lithium-Ion batteries.. ok for motorcycles?

[grcamna2]

I was reading online about Lithium batteries starting on fire a couple years ago:that can be a problem. 
Have they designed something so that now these batteries are useful for our bikes ?

[Bankerdanny]

I don't see a benefit that is worth the additional cost on a stock street bike that sees limited use.

But if you get one, you want your charging system to be in tip-top shape (I would probably install a solid state combo reg/rec from a reputable source like Rick's) as overcharging is very bad. And if you use a battery maintainer make sure that is is approved for use on Lithium-Ion batteries.

[BomberMann650]

Technically, every battery has a risk of some catastrophic failure.
A quality lifepo4 battery with proper love and care poses little more or less risk than a lead acid or agm part.
As said, the bikes charging system has to be up to snuff and within specification.  In addition to using a proper charger/maintainer.
The sad cases of lithium batteries erupting into flames are often attributed to improper charging.  Followed by overheating and physical damage.
This applies to the gamut of lithium powered devices.  Cell phones, laptops, vapes, power banks, et al.
The cheaper the component, the riskier the investment.  A good battery management system stands as a literal firewall for every Lithium battery ever.

The energy density of a li-ion battery makes it hard to beat.  Getting more CCA and AH from a much smaller package makes it a no-brainer for custom builds.  For stock replacement, the justifications won't have the same appeal.  At least in the sohc4 camp.  For baggers with lights and sound systems or onboard air compressor.  A high capacity lithium battery helps ensure you can still start the motor and leave the show in style.

[kghost]

Lithium is nice if you need space, light weight, or more amps.

The problem is....the bike doesn't control the charge. The Power Control Board (pcb) built into the battery does.
They don't like overvolts and under charging. That PCB board is usually the cause of the battery failing...one more thing to break.

The wrong charger has killed a lot of lithium batteries too.

A good lithium battery costs a fair bit more than an AGM.

[RAFster122s]

lifepo4 batteries are a metal cased design and are extremely safe compared to the fire starter lithium polymer batteries. They are what the airline industry is now restricting you to grams of lithium batteries in the US. Lithium polymer batteries were and are a huge risk. I warned a Homeland Security of their danger along with a long litany of other objects they were not banning and should when they were banning nail clippers with a file..  overcharging a lipo battery was a huge fire risk easily achieved with the charge ports available in board or dead shorting the battery would result in a fire or exploding battery that catches in fire.vyou can put them in water and they keep burning. The smoke is black acrid eye burning and lung searing. I was rewarded with pat downs on every flight I took for over a year. At least they didn't ban me and put me on a no fly list...
Not the brightest thing I ever did and I was trying to be helpful. Only took them about 9 years to start regulating it...after a Boeing aircraft had a lithium battery fire in the cockpit in a metal box...

[HondaMan]

Lithium batteries and carbon-fiber airliners. A match made in Heaven or Hell, haven't figured out which...

[Don R]

 I saw the video of dude with the electric dragster go the quarter mile at 202 mph for the record. He removed a chain and lubed the remaining ones with WD40 to get the bump for the last mph he needed.
  I think he broke Larry McBride's motorcycle mph record by a tiny amount.

[emlupi]

I replaced the battery in my RC51 with a lithium ion type. If you know the RC51 the battery is in a PITA spot under the seat and I figured that a smaller and lighter battery would make winter battery maintenance tasks easier. Mine is a Shorai and I have had it for a couple of seasons without any problems or issues. The model I bought is compatible with the bike’s charging system and standard battery tenders so I can use the same tender for all my bikes.

[grcamna2]

I replaced the battery in my RC51 with a lithium ion type. If you know the RC51 the battery is in a PITA spot under the seat and I figured that a smaller and lighter battery would make winter battery maintenance tasks easier. Mine is a Shorai and I have had it for a couple of seasons without any problems or issues. The model I bought is compatible with the bike’s charging system and standard battery tenders so I can use the same tender for all my bikes.

Thanks for the feedback on a Shorai Li-ion:I've heard many good things about them.
I'm wondering if they'll work better on the RC51 and other modern bikes compared to the CB750,550,400F & 350F ?

[BomberMann650]

Cb's equipped with the omp vrrem's are. 

[scottly]

Shorai batteries are Lithium Iron, not Lithium Ion: there is a difference. Our bikes should have the stock mechanical regulators replaced with a solid-state regulator that limits the charging voltage to a preferable 14.4V for best battery life. Rick's has a "lithium specific" unit, which regulates the voltage at 14V, +/- .2V, but the minimum voltage recommended by Shorai is 13.9V, IIRC. The standard Rick's has a voltage of 14.9, which is above the max of 14.8. The OMP adjustable reg Bomber mentions can be set to a desired voltage.
I have been running LiFe batteries since 2011, and Shorai brand batteries since 2017. They don't require "battery tenders" on our bikes, which normally have no parasitic drains and can sit for months before self-discharging to the point where they need to be "topped up"; more modern bikes with computers and other drains are a different story.
Both the Shorai batteries I have now are the same capacity, despite the difference in size, and will easily spin over my high compression 836.    

[emlupi]

Right you are, Scottly. Lithium Iron, not ion. Thanks for the education. Still, definitely smaller and lighter than AGM batteries.

[grcamna2]

Shorai batteries are Lithium Iron, not Lithium Ion: there is a difference. Our bikes should have the stock mechanical regulators replaced with a solid-state regulator that limits the charging voltage to a preferable 14.4V for best battery life. Rick's has a "lithium specific" unit, which regulates the voltage at 14V, +/- .2V, but the minimum voltage recommended by Shorai is 13.9V, IIRC. The standard Rick's has a voltage of 14.9, which is above the max of 14.8. The OMP adjustable reg Bomber mentions can be set to a desired voltage.
I have been running LiFe batteries since 2011, and Shorai brand batteries since 2017. They don't require "battery tenders" on our bikes, which normally have no parasitic drains and can sit for months before self-discharging to the point where they need to be "topped up"; more modern bikes with computers and other drains are a different story.
Both the Shorai batteries I have now are the same capacity, despite the difference in size, and will easily spin over my high compression 836.

I appreciate this information.

[BomberMann650]

I'll make note to no longer use lifepo and li-ion terms interchangably.

Fwiw - the fixed rate omp vreg upgrade on the norton measured in at 14.6v.  would expect similar results from his other kits as well

[seanbarney41]

Scottly, what reg/rec do you have on your bike?

[scottly]

I'm using 1-1/2 Radio Shack(RIP :'() single phase full wave bridge rectifiers with a $17 Ford regulator from Autozone. I removed the regulator circuit board, which was about 1-1/2" x 2" from the steel case and soldered wires directly to the terminals on the board. (Weight savings, ya know. ) I then coated the board with JB weld as insurance against moisture. (Thanks to Pinhead for the tips about the cheap regulators and rectifiers!!) The Ford reg is not "plug-and-play"; Dave500 has mentioned a Bosch reg that is, IIRC? The Ford reg limits the voltage to 14.5-14.6, which is higher than I would like, but hasn't been a problem so far. The pic is of the battery tray with the reg-rect and the first LiFe battery from 11 years ago.

[grcamna2]

I'm using 1-1/2 Radio Shack(RIP :'() single phase full wave bridge rectifiers with a $17 Ford regulator from Autozone. I removed the regulator circuit board, which was about 1-1/2" x 2" from the steel case and soldered wires directly to the terminals on the board. (Weight savings, ya know. ) I then coated the board with JB weld as insurance against moisture. (Thanks to Pinhead for the tips about the cheap regulators and rectifiers!!) The Ford reg is not "plug-and-play"; Dave500 has mentioned a Bosch reg that is, IIRC? The Ford reg limits the voltage to 14.5-14.6, which is higher than I would like, but hasn't been a problem so far. The pic is of the battery tray with the reg-rect and the first LiFe battery from 11 years ago.

Were you able to run your CB750 street bike using that small battery ?

[scottly]

Yes, I ran my kick-start 836 for about 7 years with that small LiFe battery, and used sealed lead-acid batteries of roughly the same capacity for about 15 years before that. They worked fine in that application, but didn't have enough power for the electric starter. As it was getting increasingly difficult to kick-start the bike due to age(mine, not the bike's ), I refitted the starter and started using the Shorai batteries. The current one is the same size as the old 3 A/HR Yuasa, but is less than half the weight, which is very important to me. You can get a good lead-acid for 1/3 to 1/2 the price of a LiFe, but you *might* have to replace it two or three times as often?? I've yet to find the life expectancy of LiFe, but so far my experience with lead-acid has been about 3 1/2 years for the batteries you add the electrolyte to, and maybe 5 years for sealed, depending on how often the bikes are ridden.

[RAFster122s]

lifepo4 batteries are a metal cased design and are extremely safe compared to the fire starter lithium polymer batteries.

Sorry, I did not write that correctly as LiFePO4 is one of the LiFe batteries...
Where:
Lithium (Li) Iron (Fe) Phosphate (PO4) is often shortened by many to LiFe.
LiPo or LiPoly is Lithium Polymer, the ones that burst into flames when abused by discharge or charge rates well out of hand/range. The fires from LiPo batteries are very hot and extremely difficult to extinguish...plus that lovely black acrid smoke  blinds you from seeing as your eyes water profusely and it burns/stings your eyes making it very hard to open them after you catch a face full of that stuff even if you are lucky enough to not inhale it... It is really bad stuff.
https://dakotalithium.com/faq/what-does-lifepo4-mean/

Lithium-Ion batteries are another kettle of fish a d there are Lithium carbon hybrid designs and lots of battery experimentation and research to find higher energy density batteries.

[grcamna2]

I had no idea when i first started this thread that there was a difference in them:I just thought they were all Lithium-Ion;I appreciate this information. 

The 'Lifepo4',is that basically the same as a Lithium-iron(Li Fe PO4)? or is the difference in the outer casing?
Which one is a Shorai motorcycle battery:the one I've heard many good things about ?