Topic: Fuel filters - the good and the bad?

[mick750F]

I have fair luck at my local honda shop with parts. However something like this should be asked a different way.  Ask what sizes of fuel line they have instead of telling them what you need.  You might get a better answer that way.

   Huh? Why would you ask what they carry and not tell them what you want? Have them list all the lines they carry and then tell them you want 5.5mm after you find out they don't carry it? There's something wrong with telling someone at the parts counter that you need some 5.5mm fuel line...or anything else you're looking for? That's why they are there. I'm not there to waste my time or theirs although any time I've spent at Cycles 128 has been a complete waste of time. 

Mike

[eldar]

Maybe so but if you are going to gripe about the parts guys not helping you, why not try a different approach. As you and others have said before, they dont want to help people with old bikes. How do you know they dont have the 5.5 mm line? maybe they just dont care to help old bikes out.  So you take a different approach and you might get what you need with our some snot nose giving you crap and not helping. Or maybe you just like to #$%*? 

If they dont have it, they dont have it so reagardless of how you ask, are you wasting anymore time?  Not really. you wasted more time typing your post then you would have asking what fuel line a shop carries.

[mick750F]

   I certainly do like to #$%* when I have good reason and a socially challenged goober with attitude working the parts counter is plenty of reason for me to #$%*. If you don't understand the concept of customer service then you shouldn't be working with customers. If someone is offended/amused by me asking specifically for the part I need then they have a problem, as does the person that employs them.

   Ooops, I just wasted more time posting. How much time have you wasted posting Eldar of nearly 3,200 posts.

Mike

[eldar]

Oh I have wasted lots of time.   Customer service should be just that, regardless of the bike. Unfortunately, it does not seem to go that way. All businesses have underhanded ways of dealing with name-less customers. Sometimes you have to be a little underhanded too. It is too bad it goes that way. You would think these stores would sell anything they could get their hands on but when the counter person is younger than our rides and knows nothing and thinks loads of plastic is what is cool, then there is a problem.

[Bob Wessner]

While still employed  my dept. had a customer service unit to support some healthcare billing software we marketed. We had two rules. Rule #1 - The customer is always right. Rule #2 - Go back and read rule #1. Now, you occasionally ran into customers that made following those rules an extremely painful experience  , but you just bite your tongue on those occasions.

[BobbyR]

Not to hijack this customer service thread. Did we reach a conclusion on using a filter???

[Bob Wessner]

Mixed, I think. Some feel clean tank and petcock screen intact should be sufficient. I feel if they are installed correctly, lines aren't cramped to kinked trying to do it, and you don't have flow issues, why not? I use them.

[eldar]

I go with bob. Filter as much as you can as long as you can maintain adequate fuel flow.

[TwoTired]

Mixed, I think. Some feel clean tank and petcock screen intact should be sufficient. I feel if they are installed correctly, lines aren't cramped to kinked trying to do it, and you don't have flow issues, why not? I use them.

Well, Bob, then I have have to ask.  How do you know that two filters are enough?  Surely, if you put five or six filters in series that would be even better, right?  Can't get that fuel too clean, now, eh?   Just joking.

Filters are selected by their particle size rating and block particles larger than that rating. As they trap particles they become more restrictive and block ever smaller particles.  This usually reduces their flow rate while they are used, depending on the concentration of the contaminate supply.
If the goal is to keep fuel orifices in the carburetor flowing, you need to block particle sizes that won't fit through those orifices.  Other, smaller, particles flow though and that helps to maintain a cleaner overall system.  Trapping unnecessary particles adds extra maintenance chores, such as periodic cleaning, replacement, or flow testing.  Add installation issues to the experience, and I don't see why extra fuel filters are recommended by so many.

For those championing the added filter philosophy, do you even know what particle size is being blocked by your added filter? 
Or, is this addition more to make the owner feel good, rather than actually improve operation of the machine?
Or, do you just think others should make the same expenditures you have, so you don't feel as foolish?  No insult indended, there is real human psychology behind these questions.  Not all we do is rational or logical.

Certainly filter your fuel.  Spend as much effort, time, and money as you feel appropriate to the task.

Cheers,

[eldar]

I guess what confuses me is how you are so up on filtering your air and using a paper filter but figure the tank filter is enough. Particles are all the same regardless of if they come through fuel or air. The less crap in your engine, the better. i doubt anyone can dispute that.
Sure it does no good to use a filter that is not finer than the one in the tank and you dont want to starve your engine, but how much time does it really take to check a filter? A minute? maybe?

Another benefit of an external filter is that you do not need to use the one in the tank. You turn off the gas and drain the few drops from the line and pop the filter off. much easier than having to drain the tank in order to pull off the petcock to check the sock. And even if you do think it is easy, it still takes more time to do it.

Pretty easy, just buy a filter that lists the filtering range and flow.

[Bob Wessner]

Mixed, I think. Some feel clean tank and petcock screen intact should be sufficient. I feel if they are installed correctly, lines aren't cramped to kinked trying to do it, and you don't have flow issues, why not? I use them.

Well, Bob, then I have have to ask.  How do you know that two filters are enough?  Surely, if you put five or six filters in series that would be even better, right?  Can't get that fuel too clean, now, eh?   Just joking.

Filters are selected by their particle size rating and block particles larger than that rating. As they trap particles they become more restrictive and block ever smaller particles.  This usually reduces their flow rate while they are used, depending on the concentration of the contaminate supply.
If the goal is to keep fuel orifices in the carburetor flowing, you need to block particle sizes that won't fit through those orifices.  Other, smaller, particles flow though and that helps to maintain a cleaner overall system.  Trapping unnecessary particles adds extra maintenance chores, such as periodic cleaning, replacement, or flow testing.  Add installation issues to the experience, and I don't see why extra fuel filters are recommended by so many.

For those championing the added filter philosophy, do you even know what particle size is being blocked by your added filter? 
Or, is this addition more to make the owner feel good, rather than actually improve operation of the machine?
Or, do you just think others should make the same expenditures you have, so you don't feel as foolish?  No insult indended, there is real human psychology behind these questions.  Not all we do is rational or logical.

Certainly filter your fuel.  Spend as much effort, time, and money as you feel appropriate to the task.

Cheers,

I sense disagreement.

I understand what you are saying. All things equal, the filter in the petcock would probably do nicely. However, most are more than 30 years old who knows how long they will continue to do their thing properly. I've seen some that looked pretty questionable. I see no harm in the back-up approach and the few $$'s to replace periodically won't break the bank.

[mrbreeze]

The good and the bad.....In tank sock also protects crap from tearing up petcock....good. In tank sock is more of a pain to service and is more pricey....bad. In line filter cheap and easy to service....good. In line filter hard to find good mounting location and impedes fuel flow easier......bad.
I tell you what.....do what you have to to keep crap out of your carbs.....unless you happen to like pulling them and cleaning/rebuilding often.
 When I rebuilt my carbs,I was running the sock and a small in-line.I was having starvation issues and Cben said his improved by going to a larger in-line. After hearing that....I removed my in-line altogether and it ran better but still not right. At that point...I discovered that my #3 float bowl level was lower than the others so I adjusted the float to provide the same amount of fuel as the other 3 (forget about float height measurement). Man....what a difference that made. I could probably put the in-line filter back in and it would be OK. Hell.......who knows??
If someone comes up with a better mousetrap.....I hope they post it here!!!!

[TwoTired]

I sense disagreement.

I can tell nothing much gets past you, Bob. 

I understand what you are saying. All things equal, the filter in the petcock would probably do nicely. However, most are more than 30 years old who knows how long they will continue to do their thing properly. I've seen some that looked pretty questionable. I see no harm in the back-up approach and the few $$'s to replace periodically won't break the bank.

 Since I think I still hear the horse whiny.  I feel justified in a bit more flogging just to see if it'll move.

The petcock screen is washed by the fuel in the sediment bowl, where it falls to the bottom of the bowl.  Simply unscrewing the bowl and flushing that out pretty much takes care of that maintenance item.  I've not seen the screen wire deteriorate on its own.  The one on my 74 Cb550 sure seems to be as intact as the day I got it.  What is it you think makes the screen wire become unserviceable?  I do admit that ham handed service technicians can damage just about anything.  Can replacement parts not be found?  But, if there is enough crud to actually fill that bowl or clog that screen, there are issues with the tank proper or fuel supply way beyond what any screen or in-line filter can address.

Dare I ask if you have stock in a fuel filter manufacturing facility?   Just kidding!!!

Cheers,

[techy5025]

I'm sure that the flow rates....if you can find them listed....are based on the
applied pressure and some are probably intended for use with engines that
have fuel pumps... i.e. in the tank.  On our bikes we only have five to ten
inches or so of "head" to force the fuel through the filter, and on some of them I'm
sure only a dribble would get through.

Now if we mounted the tank up a couple of feet. 

Jim

[mrbreeze]

I'm sure that the flow rates....if you can find them listed....are based on the
applied pressure and some are probably intended for use with engines that
have fuel pumps... i.e. in the tank.  On our bikes we only have five to ten
inches or so of "head" to force the fuel through the filter, and on some of them I'm
sure only a dribble would get through.

Now if we mounted the tank up a couple of feet. 

Jim

  Now if we mounted the tank up a couple of feet...........It would look like butt for one thing!!!!!!!

[Bob Wessner]

I sense disagreement.

I can tell nothing much gets past you, Bob. 

I understand what you are saying. All things equal, the filter in the petcock would probably do nicely. However, most are more than 30 years old who knows how long they will continue to do their thing properly. I've seen some that looked pretty questionable. I see no harm in the back-up approach and the few $$'s to replace periodically won't break the bank.

 Since I think I still hear the horse whiny.  I feel justified in a bit more flogging just to see if it'll move.

The petcock screen is washed by the fuel in the sediment bowl, where it falls to the bottom of the bowl.  Simply unscrewing the bowl and flushing that out pretty much takes care of that maintenance item.  I've not seen the screen wire deteriorate on its own.  The one on my 74 Cb550 sure seems to be as intact as the day I got it.  What is it you think makes the screen wire become unserviceable?  I do admit that ham handed service technicians can damage just about anything.  Can replacement parts not be found?  But, if there is enough crud to actually fill that bowl or clog that screen, there are issues with the tank proper or fuel supply way beyond what any screen or in-line filter can address.

Dare I ask if you have stock in a fuel filter manufacturing facility?   Just kidding!!!

Cheers,

I give!

But will still use them.

[TwoTired]

In tank sock is more of a pain to service and is more pricey....bad.

Hello Fred,

I'm wondering why you think the in tank "sock" is such a pain to service?
1) It rarely needs servicing as the fuel sloshing around inside keeps it rinsed so the heavy particles still settle to the bottom of the tank.  It is a blocking filter not an entrapment filter like the inlines, so it doesn't hold the nasty bits or need frequent replacing as the inlines do.  I've never seen the in tank one clog as it has over 25 times the area of the fuel lines.

2)If you have half a tank or less of fuel, most of us can remove the tank quickly, lay it on its side on a comfy padded chair, and then using that ultra specialized tool called the crescent wrench  remove the petcock and sock filter/stand pipe.  If it needs rinsing or back flushing, you do have to be careful not to rip the fine fabric.  So, I suppose a clutz mechanic could have some difficulty being careful enough for the filter to survive.  But, it is worth the effort and the fine mesh provided, blocks even smaller particles than the older style screened petcocks did.

I had far more issues with the in line filters that came on used bikes that made routine tank removal an ordeal, what with the short sections of tubing and the very limited space in which they could fit.  And, then only with the tank fully in place, could you install or remove them.

You are right, they are more costly to replace than an inline.  But, I've never had to replace one unless it became damaged in some way.   I'm using several that are 25 years old and they still do the same job.  I can't imagine an inline would still be useful after that much useage.  Unless, of course, it had that nice Honda sock prefiltering ahead of it, perhaps.

Cheers,

[Gordon]

Dare I ask if you have stock in a fuel filter manufacturing facility?   Just kidding!!!

Cheers,

I'm thinking just the opposite.  I think an in-line fuel filter salesman did something mean to you when you were a kid!