Topic: Re-lacing my K1 750's Wheels with New Spokes

[ZTatZAU]

Having never done this before, I've been searching past threads, reviewing my Honda FSM and a few YT videos, looking for information and guidance on re-lacing my K1 750's wheels with new spokes.

Despite the familiar notice... Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 90 days. Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic... I first posted this question in an older thread but received no replies.  So, I've deleted my original post there... thinking it may indeed be best to start a new topic on my project.

I'm hands-on into this project now and have a number of questions but will start with this one after reading these comments from @HondaMan in that older tread...

If this is a front wheel for your 750K6 and it has just 1 disc brake on it, it should be trued up 2.5mm to 3.5mm off toward the the bike's left side to be OEM. While this is not the true centerline of the bike, it does help keep the bike straight in a hard stop with the front disc. If you have dual discs then align it to centerline of the bike instead.

A side note about this: the offset that Honda put on these front ends amplifies any effects from a squared-off rear tire, or uneven ("snatching") drive chain, making the bike's head tend to shake when coasting down a slope with lightly-held handlebars.

Truing a single-disc front wheel to center will cause a slight tendency to pull to the left under hard front braking.

HondaMan,

I'm curious if this offset that @HondaMan described only applies to single disk K6 750s; or would the same offset apply to K1s with a single disk?

And, if so, where should this offset be measured from, when the wheel is off the bike on a truing stand?  From the wheel's hub?  From plumb bobs from the inboard edges of where the axle holders would be on the axle?

My 750 has always tracked quite nicely, hands off with no wobble, with no tendency to drift one way or another under braking or otherwise.  I've got my front wheel setup on an old aviation wheel balancing stand, now repurposed as a truing stand just to see what I have right now before disassembling the wheel to start my re-lacing project.



Best I can tell on my stand, my wheel seems to be pretty well centered but, if anything, is slightly offset (about 1.5mm) to the right side of center... opposite the single disk on the left side of the wheel... when measured from the inboard side of the tubular stanchions to the edge of the rim.  My current side to side max runout is about 0.021".

Under the circumstances I've described above, when truing up my rim with the new spokes installed, should I be trying to reproduce the current setup?  Or something different?

As always, any hints, tips, or suggestions are appreciated!  ZT

[BenelliSEI]

If your stand prevents the hub from moving side to side, your set to true a wheel.

Since your bike handled well, i’d take a measurement from stand to rim and duplicate (assuming the answer to the above is “yes”).

Remove the disc before you start. You can’t insert spokes with it in place.

I use a big bolt cutter, to remove spokes in two minutes. Just cut them in half.

Before you cut, take a few good pictures around the valve stem hole. You will note that all the spokes are in clusters of 4. Get the ones around the valve stem right and the rest just repeat.

Install ALL the spokes that feed in from the outside FIRST. Fix them to the rim, just threaded a few turns to the nipples. Then insert the ones that push in from the inside…..

[ZTatZAU]

Thanks John!  I appreciate your thoughtful reply and suggestions.

I've already taken several pictures of the wheel and spoke pattern and my disk is now off.  Before starting, I was planning to remove the axle, tire, tube and rim band, leave the current bearings in place and start lacing the new spokes with the hub flat on the work table with the rim shimmed up to where it is currently positioned reference the hub.  Then put it back on the stand to fine tune the runout(s).  Do you see any problem with that approach?

My current problem is removing the axle.  I needed an impact gun to remove the axle nut but now that the nut is off, the axle hasn't budged.  My first impression is the collar spacer under the axle nut is frozen to the axle so I've been warming the collar and axle and applying Kroil several times, then reinstalling the axle nut and trying to break it free with a mallet.  The axle still hasn't budged.  I suspect the inner races of the bearings could also be frozen to the axle but can't yet tell for sure if that's the case.

Any suggestions on removing the stuck axle are appreciated.
ZT

[BenelliSEI]

ZT….. your shimmed bench top plan is exactly what I do. Sounds good to me.

Keep soaking shaft. I would cut the hub free and then put it in my small press…..
No press? Cut the hub free and then shim it up off the floor with some wood. Thread the “nut” back on to protect the threads (without the spacer) and give it a few good wacks with a 5 pound sledge!

[ZTatZAU]

ZT….. your shimmed bench top plan is exactly what I do. Sounds good to me.

Keep soaking shaft. I would cut the hub free and then put it in my small press…..
No press? Cut the hub free and then shim it up off the floor with some wood. Thread the “nut” back on to protect the threads (without the spacer) and give it a few good wacks with a 5 pound sledge!

Thanks again, John!

I've considered all the above.  However,  before cutting off the spokes, I'd like to have the axle out and the tire off in order to lay the rim and hub on the table to determine the correct rim shim dimension. 

Unfortunately, the spacer is stuck good on the axle so, after periodic Kroil soaks, I've been putting the nut back on the axle threads leaving an 1/8 to 3/16" space between the nut and the spacer before using the mallet.  The wheel is sitting on a 5 gallon bucket supported by the spoke so it may not be rigid enough for the hammer to be effective.

EDIT:  I may need a bigger hammer as you suggested... perhaps with wood blocks under the hub???

ZT

[ZTatZAU]

Axle is out!

With no press on hand, my solution was two carefully place 2x4s under the flat portions of the speedo gear box retainer to provide additional rigidity against the bottom of the hub... like this:



... Oh yeah, and a bigger hammer.  Once the axle was through the spacer collar on the nut side, it came out of the bearing races with just a few good pulls by hand with a screwdriver through the hole in the other end of the axle.

Now to remove the rubber and get things setup for installing the new spokes.

I'm still learning and appreciate the help!  ZT

[Don R]

 I call the ones that end up on the back side of the rim flange the innies. Do the innies first. Watch the angle of the spoke holes in the rim. Some are angled inward and some are angled out. I like a little lube in the spoke threads.

[ZTatZAU]

I call the ones that end up on the back side of the rim flange the innies. Do the innies first. Watch the angle of the spoke holes in the rim. Some are angled inward and some are angled out. I like a little lube in the spoke threads.

Thanks Don!

[WideAWAKE]

Having never done this before, I've been searching past threads, reviewing my Honda FSM and a few YT videos, looking for information and guidance on re-lacing my K1 750's wheels with new spokes.

Despite the familiar notice... Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 90 days. Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic... I first posted this question in an older thread but received no replies.  So, I've deleted my original post there... thinking it may indeed be best to start a new topic on my project.

I'm hands-on into this project now and have a number of questions but will start with this one after reading these comments from @HondaMan in that older tread...

If this is a front wheel for your 750K6 and it has just 1 disc brake on it, it should be trued up 2.5mm to 3.5mm off toward the the bike's left side to be OEM. While this is not the true centerline of the bike, it does help keep the bike straight in a hard stop with the front disc. If you have dual discs then align it to centerline of the bike instead.

A side note about this: the offset that Honda put on these front ends amplifies any effects from a squared-off rear tire, or uneven ("snatching") drive chain, making the bike's head tend to shake when coasting down a slope with lightly-held handlebars.

Truing a single-disc front wheel to center will cause a slight tendency to pull to the left under hard front braking.

HondaMan,

I'm curious if this offset that @HondaMan described only applies to single disk K6 750s; or would the same offset apply to K1s with a single disk?

And, if so, where should this offset be measured from, when the wheel is off the bike on a truing stand?  From the wheel's hub?  From plumb bobs from the inboard edges of where the axle holders would be on the axle?

My 750 has always tracked quite nicely, hands off with no wobble, with no tendency to drift one way or another under braking or otherwise.  I've got my front wheel setup on an old aviation wheel balancing stand, now repurposed as a truing stand just to see what I have right now before disassembling the wheel to start my re-lacing project.



Best I can tell on my stand, my wheel seems to be pretty well centered but, if anything, is slightly offset (about 1.5mm) to the right side of center... opposite the single disk on the left side of the wheel... when measured from the inboard side of the tubular stanchions to the edge of the rim.  My current side to side max runout is about 0.021".

Underi is the circumstances I've described above, when truing up my rim with the new spokes installed, should I be trying to reproduce the current setup?  Or something different?

As always, any hints, tips, or suggestions are appreciated!  ZT

You’ll be lucky to hit .02 runout. - I believe .08 is spec and in my experience.04 is pretty easy to hit.

Mount your tire, cause that will change it, then dial it in as close as you can get it making sure tension on the spokes is even.

[denward17]

This might help with re-lacing and truing...

https://bikebrewers.com/lace-motorcycle-wheel/

[BenelliSEI]

Axle is out!

With no press on hand, my solution was two carefully place 2x4s under the flat portions of the speedo gear box retainer to provide additional rigidity against the bottom of the hub... like this:



... Oh yeah, and a bigger hammer.  Once the axle was through the spacer collar on the nut side, it came out of the bearing races with just a few good pulls by hand with a screwdriver through the hole in the other end of the axle.

Now to remove the rubber and get things setup for installing the new spokes.

I'm still learning and appreciate the help!  ZT

Nice work. You got this!

[BenelliSEI]

You’ll be lucky to hit .02 runout. - I believe .08 is spec and in my experience.04 is pretty easy to hit.

Mount your tire, cause that will change it, then dial it in as close as you can get it making sure tension on the spokes is even.

WideAWAKE…. For the kind of riding I do, when I see less than 1/8” runout (visually on an “L” shaped stick that attaches to my truing stand, I stop.

Never checked after mounting a tire, but I will next time, for sure! I usually check for “bounce”, before truing, and when completed (why the stick is under the rim in photo).

[willbird]

Mount your tire, cause that will change it, then dial it in as close as you can get it making sure tension on the spokes is even.

A friend of my fathers rented space in his machine shop to run a bike shop for a few years. He built and trued a lot of wheels, never saw him mount a tire onto one to true the rim. I have a tool that measures spoke tension on bicycle wheels.....doubting that anything similar exists for motorcycle spokes ?

[newday777]

Tusk 134-093-0002 Spoke Torque Wrench Kit https://a.co/d/d7cpbhr

[willbird]

Tusk 134-093-0002 Spoke Torque Wrench Kit https://a.co/d/d7cpbhr

I saw 48 in lbs as the suggested torque ? The bicycle spoke we can measure deflection to directly measure tension.

Bill

[ZTatZAU]

Thanks again everyone!

Having never re-laced a motorcycle wheel before, I appreciate all your helpful advice and suggestions.  I'm just finishing up the front wheel now and here are the before and after pix...





For my first time, it's actually been quite rewarding to learn this new skill and get my front wheel's radial and axial runout to within 0.010".

Some may recall this project was prompted by the beautiful Candy Ruby Red Body Set that I recently received from Yamiya and I wanted to all I could, (within reason), to get the bike looking nice enough to be worthy of wearing the new skins.

Some may also recall me asking about dealing with damaged fork stops on the lower triple tree.  The fork stops on mine were damaged & worn which allowed the top painted fork covers to hit and dent the corners of my original K1 gas tank when the handle bars were fully turned.  I couldn't allow that to happen with the beautiful new Yamiya parts.  Fortunately, I was able to find a very nice, affordable, NOS lower bridge/steering stem; so I'll be rebuilding the entire front end with new fork seals, booties, and the Yamiya ruby red headlight shell and fork covers.

By the time that's all done, I hope to have chosen and obtained a new set of classic tires, tubes, and rim bands, before I can get the bike rolling again and turned around on the lift to start on cleaning up and re-lacing the back wheel.

Any suggestions on new tires for my K1 750 would be appreciated.  My current tires are Michelin S41 3.25-19 on the front and Michelin M45 4.25-18 on the rear.  Tread is still very good on both but the tires are at least 30 years old, SO...

I've read here that many 750 riders are running Shinko and Metzeler tires but I'm quite dizzy trying to recall the details.  I'd kinda like to stay with a "classic" tread pattern rather than the round profile tires with slanted, curvy looking treads which just, to me anyway, don't look like a classic K1 750 tire.

I found the Metzler ME11/Me77 (F & R) at DK who seem to have good prices and free returns but the ME11 is out of stock.  I hear some recommend the Shinko 712 tires but they have the more modern curvy tread pattern and DK says they don't fit my K1 750.  The shinko super classic 270s look more traditional but the DK site says the 270 doesn't come in a size for "my ride".

As always, comments, advice, and suggestions are welcome.
ZT


 lME11/ME77? 

[willbird]

Came out looking nice :-). I just ordered a pair of 4:1 black rims and spokes today to build up a set for my K2.

Bill

[BenelliSEI]

Congratulations! Looks great and a new skill. I like the Dunlop K70 tires and they come in sizes for the cb750. Lots of other tires are ultimately better performers, but I like the classic style.

[WideAWAKE]

I am running some IRC gs11 on my K0 - they look period and perform quite well.

[MauiK3]

Nice job! Lacing wheels is really a thing to tackle, with patience it becomes a really rewarding task, as you have found out.

[ZTatZAU]

Thanks again to everyone!  I appreciate the nice comments, kudos and suggestions!

As to the tires, I've always liked the Dunlops John, and ran them on my English bikes way back when, and more recently on my old 73 XLH that I recently resurrected.  But while the K70s are somewhat similar to the 30 year old Michelins I'm removing from my K1 750, I think I'll try a pair of the IRC GS-11s, that WideAwake suggested, this time around.  I do like the look of the GS-11s and the difference in price between the K70s and the GS-11s is enough to pay for new tubes and rim bands!

As to the final tuning of my new front wheel spokes, I have another question for you more experienced wheel building gurus.

Whether using a spoke torque wrench or playing the spokes like a harp to achieve an equal "ring"... all the guidance and tutorials I've seen recommend a final tightening of the spokes, after the wheel is trued, with a torque wrench or with a specified sequence of 1/4 turns on each nipple to achieve "equal tension" on all the spokes.  My question is this...

Once the truing procedure is completed, some spokes will be tighter than others.  So how then can a final tightening, whether with an equal number of additional tightening turns of each nipple or via torque wrench, ever really achieve the same tension in each spoke or, in the latter case with equal torque on each spoke, maintain the runout that was achieved during the truing procedure?

Some have said that I do tend to over-think such things but, as always, your thoughts, comments, and any explanations are appreciated!
ZT

[M 750K6]

I've rebuilt a few wheels. I have never used a torque wrench on spokes. I don't try to get each spoke to ring at the same tone. If any have a dull thunk type sound, they are under-tight and not contributing to the true or strength of the wheel. I tighten them, but only to the point they start to ring and no more.

Once they all ring, I then do another 1/6th or 1/3rd turn all round (one or two flats), depending on how tight the tightest spokes are. I do this starting at the valve and then to the spoke 180 degrees opposite (bit of masking tape on that one). Then carry on the same way round the wheel (i.e. tightening a spoke and its 180 degree opposite one, as a pair). Stop when I get 1/2 way round, at the masking tape, which should be up to the one next to the valve on the opposite side, i.e. each spoke gets just one final tighten.

Final check they all ring and it spins true, but I've never had to correct at this point, it seems to stay where I set it. I recheck after the first ride and again a few weeks later, but they've held fine so far.

[BenelliSEI]

I've rebuilt a few wheels. I have never used a torque wrench on spokes. I don't try to get each spoke to ring at the same tone. If any have a dull thunk type sound, they are under-tight and not contributing to the true or strength of the wheel. I tighten them, but only to the point they start to ring and no more.

Once they all ring, I then do another 1/6th or 1/3rd turn all round (one or two flats), depending on how tight the tightest spokes are. I do this starting at the valve and then to the spoke 180 degrees opposite (bit of masking tape on that one). Then carry on the same way round the wheel (i.e. tightening a spoke and its 180 degree opposite one, as a pair). Stop when I get 1/2 way round, at the masking tape, which should be up to the one next to the valve on the opposite side, i.e. each spoke gets just one final tighten.

Final check they all ring and it spins true, but I've never had to correct at this point, it seems to stay where I set it. I recheck after the first ride and again a few weeks later, but they've held fine so far.

Well written. This is what I do and it works. Setting them all to the same tension would seem to me to undo all the work done to get the wheel straight!

[ZTatZAU]

M 750K6 - Thanks so much for your thoughtful post and explanation.  As BenelliSEI noted, your reply was very well written, made perfect sense, and has resolved all of my concerns.

I appreciate you sharing your experience and methodology and will proceed as you suggest!
ZT

[M 750K6]

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