Author Topic: Early vs late clutch  (Read 616 times)

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Offline Pbeattie89

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Early vs late clutch
« on: March 09, 2024, 11:33:59 AM »
Between the early and later clutch on the sohc cb750, which is better? Are they interchangeable? What are the pros and cons of both designs?

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« Last Edit: March 09, 2024, 11:38:54 AM by Pbeattie89 »

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Early vs late clutch
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2024, 11:37:55 AM »
Would you be so kind to at least try to remember which bike you had in mind?
CB500K2-ED Excel black
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Offline Pbeattie89

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Re: Early vs late clutch
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2024, 11:40:36 AM »
Would you be so kind to at least try to remember which bike you had in mind?
My bad, I keep forgetting that this forum covers multiple models. I've edited the original post.

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Offline PeWe

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Re: Early vs late clutch
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2024, 01:07:15 PM »
My K6 got the later clutch from an F2.
Better when engine has more power and clutch need to hold together.
The double metal plate in the middle of the package stiffen it up.

Later clutch parts:
The outer steel basket + inner aluminium part with grooves for metal plates.
The rest same as K6 where the outer steel basket also is locked to shaft with a circlip.

The stock clutch was fine with 81whp. Cruzinimage fiber plates + Barnett springs.



When 1000cc with much more torque and +90whp, clutch had to be improved. EBC fiber plates.

(Even  stiffer Barnett springs for CB500 a must after 100whp)

If clutch rattle much, check the adjuster screw. Honda specify 1/4- 1/2 turn out from closed.
1/2 turn out, more rattle than 1/4.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2024, 01:10:28 PM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Pbeattie89

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Re: Early vs late clutch
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2024, 03:18:11 PM »
My K6 got the later clutch from an F2.
Better when engine has more power and clutch need to hold together.
The double metal plate in the middle of the package stiffen it up.

Later clutch parts:
The outer steel basket + inner aluminium part with grooves for metal plates.
The rest same as K6 where the outer steel basket also is locked to shaft with a circlip.

The stock clutch was fine with 81whp. Cruzinimage fiber plates + Barnett springs.



When 1000cc with much more torque and +90whp, clutch had to be improved. EBC fiber plates.

(Even  stiffer Barnett springs for CB500 a must after 100whp)

If clutch rattle much, check the adjuster screw. Honda specify 1/4- 1/2 turn out from closed.
1/2 turn out, more rattle than 1/4.
So the later clutch with the double steel plate is the better of the two in your opinion? What parts would be needed to make it work on the earlier engine?

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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Early vs late clutch
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2024, 04:27:40 PM »
Double plate from the early GL1000, fatter clutch cover, deeper basket.... what am I missing?
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline newday777

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Re: Early vs late clutch
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2024, 05:27:58 PM »
My K6 got the later clutch from an F2.
Better when engine has more power and clutch need to hold together.
The double metal plate in the middle of the package stiffen it up.

Later clutch parts:
The outer steel basket + inner aluminium part with grooves for metal plates.
The rest same as K6 where the outer steel basket also is locked to shaft with a circlip.

The stock clutch was fine with 81whp. Cruzinimage fiber plates + Barnett springs.



When 1000cc with much more torque and +90whp, clutch had to be improved. EBC fiber plates.

(Even  stiffer Barnett springs for CB500 a must after 100whp)

If clutch rattle much, check the adjuster screw. Honda specify 1/4- 1/2 turn out from closed.
1/2 turn out, more rattle than 1/4.
So the later clutch with the double steel plate is the better of the two in your opinion? What parts would be needed to make it work on the earlier engine?

Sent from my SM-G991W using Tapatalk

You will also need the later clutch cover that sticks out further for the bigger basket
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Early vs late clutch
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2024, 05:49:19 PM »
Here's the features of the clutches as they changed: you'd have to decide which one you'd like?

Early clutch (not counting the sandcast/K0 ones here...) was simplest, with 7 friction plates that were all the same type. This gives a nice, linear feel and can hold up to 90 HP with no troubles. It lasts the longest of all the designs.

The next clutch came in the 1974 750K4 bikes. This one has the dual-steel plates with the tiny springs in between them, riveted together to provide a slight delay in the clutch's final 'grab' moment. This clutch has a different top cork plate with wider outer tabs (so you don't put it in the wrong place in the stack), and this top plate has slant-cut corks on it to provide, in combination with the dual-spring plate right behind it, a moment of 'slip' if the clutch is dropped too hard. This came about from complaints of the 'sudden clutch' that showed up in popular motorcycle magazines of the era, mostly because the Kawasaki Z900 had a smooth, progressive clutch (that wore out quickly) and the test-riders all mentioned it in late 1973's reviews.

The 3rd version of the clutch appeared in the 750F2 bikes and was used in the K7/8 models, too. There were 2 different clutch baskets associated with this one, and they seemed to come-and-go in production. The 1st clutch basket was similar to the K4 version with the 'slipper' sprung plate(s) in the 4th position (from the outside) and the top plate having the wider outer tabs and slant-cut cork faces. The 2nd version had slightly thicker cork plates (0.142" thick instead of 0.136" thick) and the slipper plate on the top of the stack with the dual-sprung plate behind it in position #2. This slipper plate still had the wider outer tabs so it could not be put in the wrong place. The important part here is: the clutch basket is slightly longer (deeper) than the ones before the F2 bikes, and this means the clutch cover must also be pushed further out from the engine cases, so it is about 2mm wider (thicker) so as to put the clutch lifter gizmo slightly further from the top pressure plate. It has enough adjustment (barely) to still work if used on the earlier engines, but only 'reaches' far enough into those engines to work well with non-slipper plate arrangements, lest they rattle because the max extension only allows for 1/2-turn slack adjustment (which PeWe references above), so this combination of parts can make clutch rattle an issue in that combination.

Got all that?
Whew...

Your final definition of clutch plates is dictated by whichever clutch basket your engine has. You can forgo the (now worn and noisy) dual-sprung steel clutch plate pair if your bike has one, by swapping out the rearmost steel plate with the thicker one from the 1978-79 GL1000 clutch. Then you can buy a single square-cut-cork plate from folks like PartsNmore (let me know if you want their part number) to fill the top spot, and use normal plates for all the rest. If you use CORRECT oil and add some ZDDP (2 ounces per oil change is enough) this makes for a smooth, powerful, long-lasting clutch that can handle 100 HP and can last over 100k miles (mine has done that).
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Pbeattie89

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Re: Early vs late clutch
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2024, 06:25:24 PM »


Here's the features of the clutches as they changed: you'd have to decide which one you'd like?

Early clutch (not counting the sandcast/K0 ones here...) was simplest, with 7 friction plates that were all the same type. This gives a nice, linear feel and can hold up to 90 HP with no troubles. It lasts the longest of all the designs.

The next clutch came in the 1974 750K4 bikes. This one has the dual-steel plates with the tiny springs in between them, riveted together to provide a slight delay in the clutch's final 'grab' moment. This clutch has a different top cork plate with wider outer tabs (so you don't put it in the wrong place in the stack), and this top plate has slant-cut corks on it to provide, in combination with the dual-spring plate right behind it, a moment of 'slip' if the clutch is dropped too hard. This came about from complaints of the 'sudden clutch' that showed up in popular motorcycle magazines of the era, mostly because the Kawasaki Z900 had a smooth, progressive clutch (that wore out quickly) and the test-riders all mentioned it in late 1973's reviews.

The 3rd version of the clutch appeared in the 750F2 bikes and was used in the K7/8 models, too. There were 2 different clutch baskets associated with this one, and they seemed to come-and-go in production. The 1st clutch basket was similar to the K4 version with the 'slipper' sprung plate(s) in the 4th position (from the outside) and the top plate having the wider outer tabs and slant-cut cork faces. The 2nd version had slightly thicker cork plates (0.142" thick instead of 0.136" thick) and the slipper plate on the top of the stack with the dual-sprung plate behind it in position #2. This slipper plate still had the wider outer tabs, so it could not be put in the wrong place. The important part here is: the clutch basket is slightly longer (deeper) than the ones before the F2 bikes, and this means the clutch cover must also be pushed further out from the engine cases, so it is about 2mm wider (thicker) so as to put the clutch lifter gizmo slightly further from the top pressure plate. It has enough adjustment (barely) to still work if used on the earlier engines, but only 'reaches' far enough into those engines to work well with non-slipper plate arrangements, lest they rattle because the max extension only allows for 1/2-turn slack adjustment (which PeWe references above), so this combination of parts can make clutch rattle an issue in that combination.

Got all that?
Whew...

Your final definition of clutch plates is dictated by whichever clutch basket your engine has. You can forgo the (now worn and noisy) dual-sprung steel clutch plate pair if your bike has one, by swapping out the rearmost steel plate with the thicker one from the 1978-79 GL1000 clutch. Then you can buy a single square-cut-cork plate from folks like PartsNmore (let me know if you want their part number) to fill the top spot, and use normal plates for all the rest. If you use CORRECT oil and add some ZDDP (2 ounces per oil change is enough) this makes for a smooth, powerful, long-lasting clutch that can handle 100 HP and can last over 100k miles (mine has done that).

That is a lot of great info. Thank you very much! I believe that I have the early style with identical plates and one with the sprung steel in the fourth position. I will confirm this tomorrow. If I understand you correctly, swapping out the sprung steel and the slanted cork plate out will hold more power? If you could post the required part numbers, that would be great.

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Offline PeWe

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Re: Early vs late clutch
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2024, 11:38:31 PM »
My K6-76 did not have double metal plate from the beginning. It had same type of fiber plates as the later K7-K8 and F2.
The outer plate has wider ears that fits the outer basket and slanted grooves. Plate to be flipped correct for the grooves direction.

The clutch cover.
I could use my K6 cover. I do not think I have replaced it earlier.

I stripped the black paint off the F2 cover.
I could not see any difference so I continued to use the K6 cover that have got additional breader earlier.

The metal plates need to be glass beaded for better grip if engine is modified and give more power.
My double metal not glass beaded since the glass should be a pain to remove. Grinded surface  to get a rough surface.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2024, 11:53:11 PM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline newday777

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Re: Early vs late clutch
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2024, 03:56:43 AM »
My K6-76 did not have double metal plate from the beginning. It had same type of fiber plates as the later K7-K8 and F2.
The outer plate has wider ears that fits the outer basket and slanted grooves. Plate to be flipped correct for the grooves direction.

The clutch cover.
I could use my K6 cover. I do not think I have replaced it earlier.

I stripped the black paint off the F2 cover.
I could not see any difference so I continued to use the K6 cover that have got additional breader earlier.

The metal plates need to be glass beaded for better grip if engine is modified and give more power.
My double metal not glass beaded since the glass should be a pain to remove. Grinded surface  to get a rough surface.

Per
Did you add the breather on the bottom of your late cover?
I have three K6 projects and a K8 and they don't have the breather on the bottom of the covers.
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline PeWe

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Re: Early vs late clutch
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2024, 12:00:45 PM »
My K6-76 did not have double metal plate from the beginning. It had same type of fiber plates as the later K7-K8 and F2.
The outer plate has wider ears that fits the outer basket and slanted grooves. Plate to be flipped correct for the grooves direction.

The clutch cover.
I could use my K6 cover. I do not think I have replaced it earlier.

I stripped the black paint off the F2 cover.
I could not see any difference so I continued to use the K6 cover that have got additional breader earlier.

The metal plates need to be glass beaded for better grip if engine is modified and give more power.
My double metal not glass beaded since the glass should be a pain to remove. Grinded surface  to get a rough surface.

Per
Did you add the breather on the bottom of your late cover?
I have three K6 projects and a K8 and they don't have the breather on the bottom of the covers.
Red arrow against breather.
Got the idea from Mike Rieck and another race bike.
I have seen old covers like that here too, welded or using ugly thick brass coupling.

45*
https://www.ebay.com/itm/272245191612?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=n7nWZTJoTJi&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=XgCEg0CPSya&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

I found a cheap 1/8 NPT tap for the threads.
Loctite 638.
Hose up between pod 2-3

K6 oil tank has no breader to air as the earlier tanks so this additional breader can be needed.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2024, 12:21:50 PM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Don R

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Re: Early vs late clutch
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2024, 12:49:16 PM »
  Two of my drag bike covers have what I assumed was the extra breather, then I test fitted the ATP turbo kit and realized it's the drain for the turbo bearings. It's drilled too big, that size looks safer.
  I've used the Goldwing double cork but not the double steel. I recently found my first K0 that still had the floating ring around the clutch basket.
  I did clearance an early cover to fit a late type big clutch on a k1 engine. It is noisy so maybe I should swap back to the non-chromed K6-newer type cover. It also has new fake Honda clutch corks from an ebay seller. No idea if they are worth the effort to use them, I had to file the adhesive off of the tabs to fit them.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
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Offline lash

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Re: Early vs late clutch
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2024, 05:24:20 PM »
How do you determine what clutch basket is in the engine. Previous owner could have swapped in a different basket and how would you now?
Analog mind in a digital world..

Offline bryanj

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Re: Early vs late clutch
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2024, 06:39:55 PM »
Comparisson
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Early vs late clutch
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2024, 07:46:35 PM »
How do you determine what clutch basket is in the engine. Previous owner could have swapped in a different basket and how would you now?
The fit-up of the later one is different from the early one: I think if the later one is installed you would have to use the later cover, too, because the depth of the fingers was increased to accept the extra steel plate of the dual-sprung one. It would also be quite a chore, as the big sprocket that the basket fits onto is different in the post-1975 engines - that is, except for those K6 engines that got the early one instead of the later one. The crankcases were different between those sprockets, too, putting the mainshaft about 0.5cm closer to the crankshaft in the later ones.

If your clutch basket currently has the wider 'notches' around the outer edge for the topmost plate, use this one from PartsNmore:

Clutch Plate
#39-1090 | Honda CB750K (1976-1978)
Clutch Plate 1 Piece Required .138" Thickness OEM Ref # 22202-371-000 / 22202-390-000 / 22202-392-000

But, if your clutch outer has the same wide slots all the way to the ends, then you use 7 of the normal clutch plates. You can get those at PartsNmore, as:

Clutch Plate
#39-1052 | Honda CB750K (1969-1978)
Clutch Plate 7 Pieces Required .138" Thickness OEM Ref # 22201-300-000 / 22201-371-000

These plates all have square-cut corks on them. If your current top plate has slanted cork blocks on it, which is where all the 'slip' (intentionally) happens, you can just replace that one with one of the #39-1090 from PartsNmore and stop the slip altogether. Honda's part number for this will have the slant-cut blocks, encouraging slip.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com