Author Topic: Lithium Battery for Honda CB550  (Read 3435 times)

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Offline Moosehead

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Lithium Battery for Honda CB550
« on: October 12, 2024, 12:20:32 AM »
I picked up someone else's project cafe racer CB550, got it running after sitting for 3 years, and have started the process of cleaning it up and doing some upgrades. In the not so distant future, I was thinking of switching the current AGM battery for a Lithium Ion, and trying to create that cafe racer triangle hole. Which means I’ll have to build a new battery tray. From everything I’ve seen, most people when they do that switch to a Lithium Ion battery to save space and be able to mount the battery in a convenient way.

I know that Lithium Ion batteries can be finicky and that the voltage regulator needs to be really good so you don’t overcharge it, and so the charging voltage stays steady. 

Are there other big considerations I should account for when doing this switch, and do people who may have done this already have recommendations for which Lithium batteries and regulators to use?

I will probably redo the wiring harness to some degree since the bike needs a brake light and turn signals as well, and I was thinking of going LED for those.

Offline MisterKnife

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Re: Lithium Battery for Honda CB550
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2024, 12:34:42 AM »
I ditched my electric start ( she starts 2 kicks max ) so I'm using a low CCU li-on and ricks regulator: https://ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/l/honda-regulator-rectifier

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Lithium Battery for Honda CB550
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2024, 03:06:41 AM »
My advice: just keep the AGM battery and forget about the rest. Nothing finicky, nothing to regulate and dead cheap. If you feel restless, mow the lawn or assist your partner in the household: wash the dishes or repair the dishwasher. Many nurse their bikes to death with little chores that are trivial at best..
And if your mind is restless, read a book. The one I'm reading now is American Prometheus, by Kai Bird, the biography of Oppenheimer, the book the film was based on. Excellent read.
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Online calj737

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Re: Lithium Battery for Honda CB550
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2024, 04:37:30 AM »
Most popular Lithium battery on our bikes is Shorai. I and many others use the stock Reg/Rec with no issues. Shorai does make a charger that is recommended. Rick’s makes a Li-specific Reg/Rec if you prefer.

Not a thing wrong with replacing the battery and switching to Li. Many new motorcycles have also made the switch.
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Offline jlh3rd

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Re: Lithium Battery for Honda CB550
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2024, 05:32:43 AM »
seems like many people install Li's in these vintage bikes, no problem.
And keep up the little chores. If anything, neglecting the small stuff on a vintage bike leads to problems down the road.
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Offline Medyo Bastos

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Re: Lithium Battery for Honda CB550
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2024, 08:44:14 AM »
Most popular Lithium battery on our bikes is Shorai. I and many others use the stock Reg/Rec with no issues. Shorai does make a charger that is recommended. Rick’s makes a Li-specific Reg/Rec if you prefer.

Not a thing wrong with replacing the battery and switching to Li. Many new motorcycles have also made the switch.
Is that a lithium iron, and is ricks reg/rec ok to use, or is it specific for a lithium ion?


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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Lithium Battery for Honda CB550
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2024, 09:11:55 AM »
Have we so soon forgotten the 3 CB550 'cafe' bikes, some noted here in these pages, whose Li-Ion batteries caught fire and burned them down - and one's garage with it?

I'm a lifelong Electronics and Technologies Engineer. Even I don't trust the so-called 'Li-Ion conversion' charger adapters for these older alternators: they are not just different peas from the same pod. For toys, Li-Ion batteries work fine. When pressed into actual service where conditions of use can often be outside their parameters of use, the entire charging system needs to be so designed. This doesn't start with a 50-year-old amperage dynamo of WWII design - which is what these bikes have.

There. I feel better.

The Li-Ion battery needs a charger that first senses the batteries state-of-charge and can test its existing depth-of-storage before the charging profile can be started: this must also control the regulator. Once started, the charge begins as a trickle rate that is based on the measured impedance of the battery just tested: this is why, when you drop your cellphone into its charging cradle, it flickers and turns on various icons and screens for a while before it starts charging. Then, once the lithium aligns its molecules sufficiently to reverse the charge direction to be back INTO the battery, the charging begins, then ramps up as the voltage is monitored to show that the cells are likewise aligning, until all the available cells are fully aligned (electrically) to accept the max charge rate available. This is why, when cold, it can take hours for a large Li-Ion battery to even begin to charge: when cold, Li-Ion doesn't swap electrons in its outer (atomic) orbits very easily.

Then, once a discharge rate is begun, the battery's chemistry must 'flip' direction again to supply significant current: it can do this more quickly than it can align to charge, by just losing some charge as heating. So, in a bike with a small alternator, driven around town at frequent stoplights, the battery is left to be constantly 'flipping' its chemistry as the bike discharges every time it drops below 3500 RPM (CB750 with its lights on) or 4100 RPM (CB550 with lights on) at each stoplight. This generates LOTS of heat in the battery and damages the chemistry at the same time, as each 'flip' consumes some of the lithium. Over time, this is what eats up the battery.

These bikes were designed to have a battery that can instantly switch from charge to discharge to act as a stabilizer for the whole electrical system. Li-Ion ain't it.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline scottly

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Re: Lithium Battery for Honda CB550
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2024, 09:20:31 AM »
Most popular Lithium battery on our bikes is Shorai. I and many others use the stock Reg/Rec with no issues. Shorai does make a charger that is recommended. Rick’s makes a Li-specific Reg/Rec if you prefer.

Not a thing wrong with replacing the battery and switching to Li. Many new motorcycles have also made the switch.
Is that a lithium iron, and is ricks reg/rec ok to use, or is it specific for a lithium ion?


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Yes, the Shorai is lithium iron (LiFe), not lithium ion. The optimum voltage is 14.4v. The standard Rick's reg has too high of a voltage, and the lithium version is barely above the minimum voltage. I'm using a Ford regulator, from Pinhead's reg/rect thread, but it's not plug-and-play.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Lithium Battery for Honda CB550
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2024, 01:18:04 PM »
Have we so soon forgotten the 3 CB550 'cafe' bikes, some noted here in these pages, whose Li-Ion batteries caught fire and burned them down - and one's garage with it?

I'm a lifelong Electronics and Technologies Engineer. Even I don't trust the so-called 'Li-Ion conversion' charger adapters for these older alternators: they are not just different peas from the same pod. For toys, Li-Ion batteries work fine. When pressed into actual service where conditions of use can often be outside their parameters of use, the entire charging system needs to be so designed. This doesn't start with a 50-year-old amperage dynamo of WWII design - which is what these bikes have.

There. I feel better.

The Li-Ion battery needs a charger that first senses the batteries state-of-charge and can test its existing depth-of-storage before the charging profile can be started: this must also control the regulator. Once started, the charge begins as a trickle rate that is based on the measured impedance of the battery just tested: this is why, when you drop your cellphone into its charging cradle, it flickers and turns on various icons and screens for a while before it starts charging. Then, once the lithium aligns its molecules sufficiently to reverse the charge direction to be back INTO the battery, the charging begins, then ramps up as the voltage is monitored to show that the cells are likewise aligning, until all the available cells are fully aligned (electrically) to accept the max charge rate available. This is why, when cold, it can take hours for a large Li-Ion battery to even begin to charge: when cold, Li-Ion doesn't swap electrons in its outer (atomic) orbits very easily.

Then, once a discharge rate is begun, the battery's chemistry must 'flip' direction again to supply significant current: it can do this more quickly than it can align to charge, by just losing some charge as heating. So, in a bike with a small alternator, driven around town at frequent stoplights, the battery is left to be constantly 'flipping' its chemistry as the bike discharges every time it drops below 3500 RPM (CB750 with its lights on) or 4100 RPM (CB550 with lights on) at each stoplight. This generates LOTS of heat in the battery and damages the chemistry at the same time, as each 'flip' consumes some of the lithium. Over time, this is what eats up the battery.

These bikes were designed to have a battery that can instantly switch from charge to discharge to act as a stabilizer for the whole electrical system. Li-Ion ain't it.
Mark, I have been using LiFe batteries since 2011 with no problems. :)
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Lithium Battery for Honda CB550
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2024, 07:20:16 PM »
Have we so soon forgotten the 3 CB550 'cafe' bikes, some noted here in these pages, whose Li-Ion batteries caught fire and burned them down - and one's garage with it?

I'm a lifelong Electronics and Technologies Engineer. Even I don't trust the so-called 'Li-Ion conversion' charger adapters for these older alternators: they are not just different peas from the same pod. For toys, Li-Ion batteries work fine. When pressed into actual service where conditions of use can often be outside their parameters of use, the entire charging system needs to be so designed. This doesn't start with a 50-year-old amperage dynamo of WWII design - which is what these bikes have.

There. I feel better.

The Li-Ion battery needs a charger that first senses the batteries state-of-charge and can test its existing depth-of-storage before the charging profile can be started: this must also control the regulator. Once started, the charge begins as a trickle rate that is based on the measured impedance of the battery just tested: this is why, when you drop your cellphone into its charging cradle, it flickers and turns on various icons and screens for a while before it starts charging. Then, once the lithium aligns its molecules sufficiently to reverse the charge direction to be back INTO the battery, the charging begins, then ramps up as the voltage is monitored to show that the cells are likewise aligning, until all the available cells are fully aligned (electrically) to accept the max charge rate available. This is why, when cold, it can take hours for a large Li-Ion battery to even begin to charge: when cold, Li-Ion doesn't swap electrons in its outer (atomic) orbits very easily.

Then, once a discharge rate is begun, the battery's chemistry must 'flip' direction again to supply significant current: it can do this more quickly than it can align to charge, by just losing some charge as heating. So, in a bike with a small alternator, driven around town at frequent stoplights, the battery is left to be constantly 'flipping' its chemistry as the bike discharges every time it drops below 3500 RPM (CB750 with its lights on) or 4100 RPM (CB550 with lights on) at each stoplight. This generates LOTS of heat in the battery and damages the chemistry at the same time, as each 'flip' consumes some of the lithium. Over time, this is what eats up the battery.

These bikes were designed to have a battery that can instantly switch from charge to discharge to act as a stabilizer for the whole electrical system. Li-Ion ain't it.
Mark, I have been using LiFe batteries since 2011 with no problems. :)

I don't have a problem with the lithium-Iron types: it's those genuine lithium oxide types that are not suited to the duty cycle of our trusty rusty electrics. The Li-Ion structure is marvelous for storing power (even for long times) and then letting it go with a rush if needed, but not so much for intermittent-duty charge-discharge cycling.

Maybe we could come up with a list of usable ones here to save someone else's garage? Just a thought...  :-\
My heart ached for the guy who lost both his 550 AND his garage from it.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline dave500

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Re: Lithium Battery for Honda CB550
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2024, 08:06:05 PM »
a lot of fires have recently started from i guess cheap imported electric scooters and bicycles?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Lithium Battery for Honda CB550
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2024, 07:07:57 PM »
a lot of fires have recently started from i guess cheap imported electric scooters and bicycles?

Yeah, about 3 years ago there were 2 apartment fires and one house fire just after Christmas, all started by electric skateboards catching fire on their chargers. Last year there were 2 more at Christmas - one was an electric tricycle, the other an electric bicycle. There's LOTS of the latter around here, with extra add-on battery packs strapped here and there on them so they will go farther, or faster.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Lithium Battery for Honda CB550
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2024, 07:16:22 PM »
The dangers do not get spread far and wide or people are ignorant and too trusting that the Chinese crap with bad engineering is going to be safe, it is for sale after all...
UL or CE listings are no where to be found on a lot of these , or they are fake and the C E mark is not the CE mark....
Too bad customs cannot block a lot of these unsafe products so they cannot enter the country.
The counterfeit issue not withstanding adding to this
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline jonda500

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Re: Lithium Battery for Honda CB550
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2024, 03:05:00 AM »
A guy one street over from me had a electric bicycle he made from ebay parts from China - he left it inside charging while he was out - and well It burned down his house (still some bricks and tiles left standing but no doors, windows or interior left) and he didn't have any insurance.
I prefer my Chinese 2 stroke engined bicycles any day (although his bike was faster!)
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Offline newday777

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Re: Lithium Battery for Honda CB550
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2024, 03:40:11 AM »
Some excerpts in a EV fire posting
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
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Online Oddjob

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Re: Lithium Battery for Honda CB550
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2024, 06:45:29 AM »
3rd screen shot is the same as the 1st Newday.