Author Topic: Pods Thread  (Read 134948 times)

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Offline mlinder

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #225 on: June 11, 2008, 12:54:15 pm »
(I should add that I have absolutely no idea whether the cb750 stock airbox is, in fact, restrictive or not :/ )
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crystalhelix

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #226 on: June 11, 2008, 01:11:04 pm »
I've been toying with doing a pressure drop study with the stock airbox and pods at work (where the equipment is), when I get around to it I will post about it but don't get your hopes up, lol. :D

Offline mlinder

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #227 on: June 11, 2008, 01:42:23 pm »
Crystal, see if the stock airbox with filter can flow 3,245,000 CC's per minute...
About what you'd need to be nonrestrictive in a 750 at 9.5k
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #228 on: June 11, 2008, 02:00:00 pm »
Bobby,

You cant compare two different engines in this case.

You can only look at your 289.

Simple fact: If you get more flow into your 289, it will make more power. Period.

Gordon,

I'm well aware that there is more to it than that, but again, to make more power, without increasing combustion chamber efficiency and design, you must get more air and fuel in there. A number of things can do that. Cam, porting, intake, and exhaust, supercharging. Any and all of those.
Sure I can. And you made my point. The newer motors have internal design changes that have come about through testing. They have made a motor with the same displacement more powerful and effiecent. You can't just stick pods on your 1960's motors and make them new and exciting. If Honda built this bike today it would have 80-100 HP just through what they have learned in 30+ years of engine building and computer modeling.
Anyone who wants to use Pods can go ahead, it's their bike. 
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Offline mlinder

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #229 on: June 11, 2008, 02:08:09 pm »
Bobby, you are comparing two different engines.
That's not the issue at hand.

The issue at hand is how intake effects the same engine.

Now, I'm not saying that a cb750 engine can take advantage of pods or stacks. I just don't know. I have no idea how much air the stock box and filter can flow.
But, since I've heard that CR carbs can increase power on a stock cb750 due to flow characteristics, my assumption (which could be very wrong) is that the stock airbox doesn't flow enough air to saturate the ability of the stock cb750 engine to pull in and expel fuel and air.

Your argument makes no sense, sorry. It's like saying you can't increase the power in an old piston air plane engine with intake modifications because jet engines are so damned awesome now.

The two don't follow and have nothing to do with each other.
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Offline Gordon

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #230 on: June 11, 2008, 02:17:55 pm »
I would imagine that the stock filter setup is restrictive at WOT & 9.5K, but how much time do most 750's with pods spend at WOT & 9.5K? 

Pods may help under those extreme circumstances, and if other performance modifications have been made to the engine, but I doubt they do much of anything in the range that many (possibly most) pod users run their bikes.

In my experience, most people install pods for one (or more) of three reasons.  They like the look, they don't want to mess with the air box, or the bike didn't have an air box when they bought it.  The performance gain issue is almost always regarded as a side benefit or even a partial justification for the choice, regardless of a lack of hard evidence that supports that claim. 

Please don't take my posts in this discussion as just being contrary or even argumentative.  I'm very much enjoying this topic. :)

 

Offline TwoTired

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #231 on: June 11, 2008, 02:22:34 pm »
Pods are restrictive too.  They generally have a larger filter media area.  Which gives them more, perhaps bigger, holes to pass air through.
The pods do not deliver any air that the engine doesn't demand.  They most certainly effect the pressure drop in the carb throat.  And, that directly effects fuel flow through the carb jet orifices.  I don't see how anyone can refute this with reasonable assurance.  That speaks directly toward jet size selection and the reason for larger orifice sizes.

Quote
If the airbox and filter are restrictive, you can, in fact, deliver more air and fuel to the engine with pods or stacks.
Your "fact" is not substantiated with quantifiable data, which is exactly what I have been asking people to post.  What you present is a belief, or conjecture, stated as fact.  Furthermore, your rather wide band statement can be proven by demonstrating 0.0000000000000001% improvement, which, for all practical purposes, is meaningless to the bike "enhancers" that normally post here.  I can't even establish that your offered discussion has any working or accepted theory to back it up?  No personal attack intended, here.  Just an observation.

I was taught that as fluid velocity increases, so do the dynamics of ducting interaction, and turbulence modal lengths.  If I accept, for a moment, that J-random pod does actually result in more oxygen in the chamber at 10,000 RPM, this does not mean turbulence effects at 9500 (or some other RPM) actually cause less oxygen present.  Has anyone seen pods that even attempt to keep laminar flow to/through the carbs?  Most I've seen don't even match the inlet runner diameters.  This duct wall step actually creates turbulence that extend "fingers" of alternating low and higher pressure areas inside the carb throat.  When these fingers extend over the jet orifice exits in the carb throat, it changes fuel flow and A/F mixture ratio.  I don't have performance data, either, or I would present it.  But, my observations ARE based on established principles of fluid dynamics and aerodynamics.

I won't want to expand the discussion to include velocity stacks.  It's outside the topic header.  It also doesn't support anyone's argument, thus far, nor does it negate it. It just adds complication.

Anyway, all this discussion is just farting in the wind.  If you want to put parts on your bike coincident with your beliefs, then do so.  If you want to evangelize to gain converts, then follow your bliss.  I do know that pods generally cause jetting headaches to users who are unfamiliar to the process and it's requirements.  Many give up before overall performance throughout the engine operating range is achieved.  Pods also add intake noise which can be perceived as "making more power" .  But, the net result is a bike that actually performs poorer than a stock one for overall street use.  Of course there are exceptions.  But, I'd sure like hard data on those just to know what definitely works, separated from what "seems to" work.

Does anyone know of a filter manufacturer that shows real data (not just marketing claims) showing that pods improve performance on our bikes?  Seems they ought to have a vested interest, which would help promote their product offering.   Modern bikes with adaptive closed loop fuel metering, ought to show the best results, I speculate.  But, on carbureted models, much will depend on the tuner's prowess and fortitude, IMO.

I think the Honda engineers did a far better job than most on this forum give them credit for accomplishing.  The intake runner walls are all matched with each transition component to component. The carbs draw air from a common plenum into flow straighteners to eliminate/reduce the chance of inlet turbulence just before air enters the carb throat, and a common filter media (which inherently induces turbulence) is well ahead of the common plenum.

I'm STILL making a plea for quantifiable data.  If there is any.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline mlinder

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #232 on: June 11, 2008, 02:23:41 pm »
When not in town, most of my riding is 7 to 10k.
Again, however, I think the screwed up fluid dynamics of pods probably negate any benefit that the increased flow may have.
Stacks, on the other hand...
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Offline Gordon

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #233 on: June 11, 2008, 02:25:57 pm »

Stacks, on the other hand...

EVIL!!!!

 ;D ;D ;D

Offline edbikerii

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #234 on: June 11, 2008, 02:34:17 pm »
Of course you don't go WOT all the time -- maybe not even very often, but when you do, THAT is exactly the moment when you want the extra HP.

Sorry if that sounds like a wiseass answer, but let's face it, it is the truth.

If the gains in the midrange are not very high, or even non-existant, who cares?  If you need to go fast, you're going to open up the throttle and rev that puppy up.

As for Dyno runs, I'm certainly not willing to pay $100 per hour or more to take my bike to the Dyno just to prove what already seems obvious to me from my "seat-of-the-pants" riding, my experience with other engines, and a few decades worth of visits to racetracks where I've seen what racers use (racers dyno sometimes, too).  Not to mention that I'd have to spend 5 hours re-installing that godforsaken airbox and rejetting back to stock for a comparison run, and then another two returning it to pods and proper jetting once I've proven what I already suspect.  That just ain't gonna happen!

My experience has been that keeping or returning the bike to stock was way too expensive, so I needed to rejet anyway.  I may as well have the benefits of more horsepower, less weight, simplicity, appearance, and other benefits of running pods.
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Offline mlinder

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #235 on: June 11, 2008, 02:41:43 pm »
Pods are restrictive too.  They generally have a larger filter media area.  Which gives them more, perhaps bigger, holes to pass air through.
The pods do not deliver any air that the engine doesn't demand.  They most certainly effect the pressure drop in the carb throat.  And, that directly effects fuel flow through the carb jet orifices.  I don't see how anyone can refute this with reasonable assurance.  That speaks directly toward jet size selection and the reason for larger orifice sizes.

Never refuted this. The reason I didn't say anything about this is that I'm in agreement. No need to expound on something we are in agreement on.
Quote
Quote
If the airbox and filter are restrictive, you can, in fact, deliver more air and fuel to the engine with pods or stacks.
Your "fact" is not substantiated with quantifiable data, which is exactly what I have been asking people to post.  What you present is a belief, or conjecture, stated as fact.  Furthermore, your rather wide band statement can be proven by demonstrating 0.0000000000000001% improvement, which, for all practical purposes, is meaningless to the bike "enhancers" that normally post here.  I can't even establish that your offered discussion has any working or accepted theory to back it up?  No personal attack intended, here.  Just an observation.
I'm sorry, I should have bolded or italicized the word 'can'. Of course it depends on the pods or stacks used.
There is no conjecture in the statement that something less restrictive can allow more (insert element, gas, item, here) to pass through it in a given amount of time than something more restrictive. It is it's own definition.
 
Quote
I was taught that as fluid velocity increases, so do the dynamics of ducting interaction, and turbulence modal lengths.  If I accept, for a moment, that J-random pod does actually result in more oxygen in the chamber at 10,000 RPM, this does not mean turbulence effects at 9500 (or some other RPM) actually cause less oxygen present.  Has anyone seen pods that even attempt to keep laminar flow to/through the carbs?  Most I've seen don't even match the inlet runner diameters.  This duct wall step actually creates turbulence that extend "fingers" of alternating low and higher pressure areas inside the carb throat.  When these fingers extend over the jet orifice exits in the carb throat, it changes fuel flow and A/F mixture ratio.  I don't have performance data, either, or I would present it.  But, my observations ARE based on established principles of fluid dynamics and aerodynamics.

Again, agreed, but trying to keep the conversation simplified. I used quite a few assumptions, and tried to make it clear that I am NOT an expert on the dynamics of flow in the sohc bikes and their respective heads. You may notice I used a number of qualifiers. I'm not saying that pods or stacks will give quantifiable results in THIS particular application, only that, if an engine is restricted by its intake, that performance can be increased by derestricting the intake.

This does NOT take into account that, while perhaps the combustion chamber could use more air and fuel, that the rest of the intake (intake tracts) flow may actually work less well with less restriction. Again, I don't know.

However, since, as I stated earlier, CR carbs have been shown to give up to a 10% increase in power to a stock CB750, that there is at least some room for improvement in the area of fuel and air delivery to the stock cb750 engine.
Quote
I won't want to expand the discussion to include velocity stacks.  It's outside the topic header.  It also doesn't support anyone's argument, thus far, nor does it negate it. It just adds complication.
OK

Quote
Anyway, all this discussion is just farting in the wind.  If you want to put parts on your bike coincident with your beliefs, then do so.  If you want to evangelize to gain converts, then follow your bliss.  I do know that pods generally cause jetting headaches to users who are unfamiliar to the process and it's requirements.  Many give up before overall performance throughout the engine operating range is achieved.  Pods also add intake noise which can be perceived as "making more power" .  But, the net result is a bike that actually performs poorer than a stock one for overall street use.  Of course there are exceptions.  But, I'd sure like hard data on those just to know what definitely works, separated from what "seems to" work.

You may notice that I've said that I don't find the pods to be anything special or helpful, other than being able to remove the carbs more quickly. My own experiences with pods do not lead me to believe there is any performance increase. So I think we are, again, in agreement.
Quote
Does anyone know of a filter manufacturer that shows real data (not just marketing claims) showing that pods improve performance on our bikes?  Seems they ought to have a vested interest, which would help promote their product offering.   Modern bikes with adaptive closed loop fuel metering, ought to show the best results, I speculate.  But, on carbureted models, much will depend on the tuner's prowess and fortitude, IMO.
I'd be interested myself. I suspect hard data is hard to come by because no real gains are made.
Quote
I think the Honda engineers did a far better job than most on this forum give them credit for accomplishing.  The intake runner walls are all matched with each transition component to component. The carbs draw air from a common plenum into flow straighteners to eliminate/reduce the chance of inlet turbulence just before air enters the carb throat, and a common filter media (which inherently induces turbulence) is well ahead of the common plenum.

Imagine that, more agreement.

Quote
I'm STILL making a plea for quantifiable data.  If there is any.

Cheers,

I probably wouldn't waste my time and money on a dyno with pods, for the reasons posted above.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 02:45:33 pm by mlinder »
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Offline Gordon

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #236 on: June 11, 2008, 02:43:51 pm »
Of course you don't go WOT all the time -- maybe not even very often, but when you do, THAT is exactly the moment when you want the extra HP.



It's not just a matter of WOT.  It's a combination of WOT and extremely high rpm's.  I can tell you that on the occasion that I'm in the red-line on my 750 at WOT, the last thing I need is MORE power. 

To me it's like the paying for high octane gas discussion.  If it makes you feel better to buy it, or you think you're getting more power because of it, then by all means do it, but don't try to convince other people to believe your claims unless you can back them up with evidence.   

Offline edbikerii

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #237 on: June 11, 2008, 02:55:32 pm »
So Gordon, where is your evidence that you don't gain horsepower?  I'll remind you that you have not done the necessary dyno tests to make these statements, either.

So why are we arguing about this?  I'll happily use my pod filters, and enjoy my perceived benefits.  You go ahead and use your airbox and enjoy the benefits you perceive.  I won't go on and on complaining that you aren't getting the power or efficiency that you could be getting.

Stop picking on us "pod-people", unless you have some evidence to back up your claims!!!

Of course you don't go WOT all the time -- maybe not even very often, but when you do, THAT is exactly the moment when you want the extra HP.



It's not just a matter of WOT.  It's a combination of WOT and extremely high rpm's.  I can tell you that on the occasion that I'm in the red-line on my 750 at WOT, the last thing I need is MORE power. 

To me it's like the paying for high octane gas discussion.  If it makes you feel better to buy it, or you think you're getting more power because of it, then by all means do it, but don't try to convince other people to believe your claims unless you can back them up with evidence.   
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #238 on: June 11, 2008, 02:57:49 pm »
Don't need to pay for a dyno. A stop watch and timed 1/4 mile runs before/after is real, quantifiable data. 

But, Ed, you can't do it, since your carbs were never jetted for the 4into1 and the stock air box.   In fact, you never rode your bike as honda delivered it, so you don't know how your current configuration differs in performance to a stock one.  In short, you don't have data to show the pods gave you an improvement.   How can you claim to have comparative data?

So, what are your 1/4 miles times now?  Does it do better than the 14.05 sec test data published in a mag for a 550 with a 160 Lb rider?
Given that, we can get a notion if your pods and exhaust made a performance improvement.  We just won't know which one of the mods had what part of the contribution.

But, I have to ask...
 Have you had your seat of the pants calibrated? ;D

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline mlinder

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #239 on: June 11, 2008, 03:12:06 pm »
Ed,

not trying to get on you or anything, but you can't prove a negative.

You can't say that your bike is faster in it's current form than it was stock because no one has proven it isn't.

Sasquatch exists because no one has proven he doesn't.. see the fallacy there?
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #240 on: June 11, 2008, 03:12:31 pm »
I never claimed to have comparative data.  I claimed that after one of my stock Honda pipes rusted out and cracked, I replaced them with MAC pipes.  MAC claimed that no re-jetting was necessary.  I installed them, and noticed no difference in performance from my originally stock configuration.  Later, I installed a UNI foam drop-in replacement filter, again with another claim from the manufacturer that no re-jetting was necessary.  Again I noticed no performance change.  Years later, I took real measurements of temperature, and concluded that the bike was running too lean (hot).

When I installed the pods and rejetted properly I felt that there was a noticeable gain in performance.  Again no comparative, objective, hard-and-fast data, just seat-of-the-pants running.  I have no reason to believe that my perception was wrong.

Yes, it is true that the incremental changes in configuration may have made small degradations in the performance of the bike that I failed to notice.  Could be.  The world will never know, as I am not about to go out and buy stock pipes for $1000 and put all the stock junk back on my bike, just to dis-prove what I already believe to be false.

I may go see if I can beg/borrow/steal a G-tech 1/4-mile performance analyzer, but I still won't have an accurate baseline to compare it to.  I don't believe a darned thing printed in manufacturer advertising-funded bike magazines, sorry.  Plus, I don't have a consistent 160lb. rider who I know is skilled in exactly the same way that the one in the magazine is.

My X calibrated my seat-of-the-pants in divorce court!!!   ;D

Don't need to pay for a dyno. A stop watch and timed 1/4 mile runs before/after is real, quantifiable data. 

But, Ed, you can't do it, since your carbs were never jetted for the 4into1 and the stock air box.   In fact, you never rode your bike as honda delivered it, so you don't know how your current configuration differs in performance to a stock one.  In short, you don't have data to show the pods gave you an improvement.   How can you claim to have comparative data?

So, what are your 1/4 miles times now?  Does it do better than the 14.05 sec test data published in a mag for a 550 with a 160 Lb rider?
Given that, we can get a notion if your pods and exhaust made a performance improvement.  We just won't know which one of the mods had what part of the contribution.

But, I have to ask...
 Have you had your seat of the pants calibrated? ;D

Cheers,
SOHC4 #289
1977 CB550K - SOLD
1997 YAMAHA XJ600S - SOLD
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2004 BMW R1150R

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Offline edbikerii

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #241 on: June 11, 2008, 03:19:22 pm »
MLinder, the difference is that I'm not pulling it out of my @$$.  There are many engine builders who swear by pod filters as performance enhancers.  There are many road-racers on old CBX50s who use them rather than air-boxes for performance reasons.  Many of them have even run dyno tests on their bikes to prove it.  Plus, my perception is that my bike is more powerful with the pod filters.  Who am I to argue with all that?

But, since you brought it up, that logical argument is just as valid.  It "seems" absurd in the example you have used, but you and I have no reason NOT to believe that there is a Sasquatch.  In fact, many people claim to have seen a Sasquatch.  Fact is, I just don't care either way.   ;D

Ed,

not trying to get on you or anything, but you can't prove a negative.

You can't say that your bike is faster in it's current form than it was stock because no one has proven it isn't.

Sasquatch exists because no one has proven he doesn't.. see the fallacy there?
SOHC4 #289
1977 CB550K - SOLD
1997 YAMAHA XJ600S - SOLD
1986 GL1200I - SOLD
2004 BMW R1150R

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Offline mlinder

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #242 on: June 11, 2008, 03:24:06 pm »
I think it's self evident that pods may help an engine that can use increased air flow (assuming that the pods flow more than the stock system   :-\ )

I just don't know if these old SOHC's in stock form can use increased airflow.

Some evidence points towards yes, but to what degree and, more importantly, how to implement it, is kinda unknown.
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Offline Gordon

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #243 on: June 11, 2008, 03:36:14 pm »
Yes, it is true that the incremental changes in configuration may have made small degradations in the performance of the bike that I failed to notice.  Could be.  The world will never know, as I am not about to go out and buy stock pipes for $1000 and put all the stock junk back on my bike, just to dis-prove what I already believe to be false.



You readily admit that the changes you made with the pods and subsequent re-jetting could very well have just restored some of the power you lost to previous changes, yet you still stand fast to the belief that they're an improvement over stock? 

You have nothing on which to base your claims of performance enhancement.  That is a fact.

If someone can show true (not seat-of-the-pants) evidence that installing pods and re-jetting for them increases overall power/performance, then I'll happily be the first to congratulate all pod users for their ingenuity, and go out and buy a set for myself. 

Offline Gordon

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #244 on: June 11, 2008, 03:42:24 pm »
Here's one question that comes to mind:

In the early days of the sohc/4 (pre EPA regulations), what reason would the Honda engineers have had to not squeeze every ounce of power out of their engines?  Aside from the obvious reliability and longevity concerns...




Offline mlinder

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #245 on: June 11, 2008, 03:49:29 pm »
"reliability and longevity"

Only reasons I can think of, outside of cost.

Damn good reasons, too.
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Offline dakeddie

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #246 on: June 11, 2008, 11:50:53 pm »
You have nothing on which to base your claims of performance enhancement.  That is a fact.

If someone can show true (not seat-of-the-pants) evidence that installing pods and re-jetting for them increases overall power/performance, then I'll happily be the first to congratulate all pod users for their ingenuity, and go out and buy a set for myself. 

The simple fact that you have rejet to a larger main when putting pods on is proof enough that there is a performance increase.  You're getting more fuel in the engine, and that's power.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #247 on: June 11, 2008, 11:59:19 pm »
You have nothing on which to base your claims of performance enhancement.  That is a fact.

If someone can show true (not seat-of-the-pants) evidence that installing pods and re-jetting for them increases overall power/performance, then I'll happily be the first to congratulate all pod users for their ingenuity, and go out and buy a set for myself. 

The simple fact that you have rejet to a larger main when putting pods on is proof enough that there is a performance increase.  You're getting more fuel in the engine, and that's power.
You've not been reading this thread long, have you.   ;)  You have overlooked some important details of how carbs actually work.  Your "proof" is unsubstantiated and jet size does NOT have a direct link to power output.  Were that true, you could rejet any carb to increase power output. 

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=22036.msg372515#msg372515
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #248 on: June 12, 2008, 02:58:04 am »
I've read this thread with much interest. It brings back a question I've posted here once. That question has intrigued me for years: how can German and Dutch motorcycle magazines, who tested the 500K1 (1971) and K2 (1976), have measured 48 DIN HP (50 SAE) and have done top speeds of 179 km/h where these models were equipped with #78 main jets (instead of #100) and a special aircleanercover? If that aircleanercover is only restrictive, how can these models perform equally good as the models equipped with #100 mains, without that cover and according to the German magazine (Motorrad) even better than the 550F2? I've never heard nor read these models performing less. Interesting, isn't it? Obviously there is more than just bigger orifices and opener pods. I find it strange that even K&N, who could have gained a much bigger market, never produced any comparison data.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #249 on: June 12, 2008, 07:42:25 am »
I find it amusing that people are pizzing on each other's shoes over nothing. The science has benn presented, the conjecture has been presented, so, here is where we are:

The PODs can keep their Pods and if they feel it works for them. Live long and prosper.
The BOXERS like myself will continue to ride around as we are.

As long as you don't have to walk home either one is OK.

Now let's talk about something everyone can agree on which is Oil> Which Oil goes best with PODS and Which goes best with boxes. ;D
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