Author Topic: Troubleshooting the Electrical Plate (1978 cb550k)  (Read 1307 times)

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Offline twisting_edge

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Troubleshooting the Electrical Plate (1978 cb550k)
« on: April 23, 2007, 06:02:15 PM »
This bike was completely submerged not once, but twice (last time just last Sunday). I had her started within 24 hours, and changed the oil repeatedly. She was starting even better than usual, a single kick (with no priming) would do it every time. Obviously, the battery wasn't holding a charge because I'd start her long enough to stir the oil thoroughly and heat the engine a bit, then stop her to change the oil again. (Note: do not go crazy with WD-40 under the valve cover: it makes the oil look like chicken gravy and is nearly impossible to rinse out.)

I did take her for a longer spin yesterday, and noticed the turn signal, which was bad after the first flood a month ago, was nearly useless and getting worse. Nowhere did the diagrams show the location of the relay, so I was poking around in the electrical plate looking for likely suspects. I could hear it click down there every 30 seconds or so (about how often the blinker switched on or off).

The bike is DoA now. Turning the key will bring on the indicator lights and headlight, but the starter does not even engage with a click, the way it normally does when the battery is extremely low. She won't start off a kick at all (I tried several dozen), and charging the battery does no good other than to brighten the headlights/indicators.

Obviously, I screwed something up when poking around inside the electrical plate. My first guess would be the magnetic switch (probably source of the low-voltage click I'm not getting anymore) at the top of the plate, but both the FAQ here and the wiring diagram indicate it does nothing except engage the starter. It should not have prevented a kick start.

I tried the obvious step of unplugging most of the contacts and plugging them back in. Many were drenched with a clear grease, although I don't know if it was conductive grease or dielectric grease. There was easily enough goo to short every circuit on the bike in a few of the connectors, so I suspect it was dielectric grease. I wiped off the excess before plugging them back in.

I'm sort of at a loss how to proceed. The Clymer manual is useless when it comes to the wiring in and around the plate. I have the original wiring diagram that came with the bike (it's different from the wiring diagrams someone uploaded here for the 78 cb550k, although that may just be formatting).

I think I found the blinker relay in the midst of all this, but I'd rather have a bike that runs.

Just to be particularly stupid about all this, I did NOT disconnect the positive terminal of the battery while poking around, although I did make sure the ignition key was off. I made sure to have everything back the way I found it (i.e, plate bolted back in, all contacts connected, etc.) before switching the ignition on. I didn't see any sparks or get any shocks while messing around. I did hear this rather ominous "zzzt" sound when moving the plate around once or twice, but it sounded just like just river silt grating between two surfaces. There's still plenty enough of river silt left on various surfaces to explain that. (I'm cleaning the silt out wherever I come across it, but not going nuts over it yet.)

I've troubleshot breadboarded circuits of some complexity in the past, but this ain't no breadboard. It looks more like a rat's nest to me.

P.S.: I just realized I haven't tried changing the fuses yet, all of which are  original equipment (and 29 years old). That's precisely the sort of idiot's suggestion I most need at this point. I hope so, at least: I doubt it is them (never had a problem with them before, and they are all well-greased), but it's a simple fix to try.
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Offline Jonesy

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Re: Troubleshooting the Electrical Plate (1978 cb550k)
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2007, 06:38:28 PM »
As for your turn signal relay, look for a rectangular metal box marked "SIGNAL-STAT" mounted with a rubber strap to the right-hand side of the electrical tray. There will be a gray and a black wire running to it.

The key components of your electrical system tray are:
-Starter Solenoid: (Cylindrical metal relay with the heavy battery and starter wires connected to it) This may be on the blink. There should also be a diode in the wiring that activates the solenoid as your bike has a safety circuit that will not allow the electric starter to function unless the bike is in neutral or the clutch is pulled in. Check that the solenoid is completeing the starter motor circuit when you press the start button.

-Fuse Box: Make sure all contacts are clean and shiney. Make sure the fuse clips have good tension on the fuse contacts.

-Voltage Regulator: Large rectangular box with a black, white and green wire. This unit has a cover with a gasket, but I don't know if submersion will ruin it. The black wire is the switched power from the key switch, the white wire runs to the field coil in the alternator and the green is the ground reference.

-Rectifier: (Blockish metal box with fins and 5 wires located on the lower-left of the tray). Make sure this is clean as it throws off a lot of heat and dirt will insulate this heat in. The green wire goes to the ground, the red wire goes to the battery positive terminal and the three yellow wires go to the stator coil in the alternator.

Each component has it's own unique troubleshooting procedures, but this should help to get you started.
"Every time I start thinking the world is all bad, then I start seeing people out there having a good time on motorcycles; it makes me take another look." -Steve McQueen

Offline twisting_edge

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Re: Troubleshooting the Electrical Plate (1978 cb550k)
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2007, 07:26:42 PM »
I'm pretty sure I've identified all the parts correctly. There's two rectifiers, one power unit (the big one with the heat sink that costs a fortune), and a smaller one. I think the blinker relay has actually been replaced, since the name on the case does not match the name listed in the Honda OEM parts manual (Mitsuba), and their picture shows something square, whereas mine is round. It also doesn't fit in the dangling rubber holder all that well, although it seems secure enough.

Unnervingly enough, there's a green connector floating around that isn't plugged into anything, but there is also one indicated in the wiring diagram. Since I didn't start unplugging stuff until after the problem developed, I'm certain that's not it.

How fragile is the regulator? It seems to have a lot of vibration isolation (might just be electrical isolation). I messed with it a bit (tried unsuccessfully to open it up: it's got a metal cover held in with two screws, one of which did not come out) before I thought of looking the parts up in the OEM parts manual and identifying them that way.

Here's my conclusions so far (the flash is making it look worse than it is):



The clutter on the left is just connectors through the plate. The fuses would be a lot more obvious if I'd taken the cover off. You can see the green solenoid on the back of the regulator on the other side of the frame holding the fuses.

I also didn't think to pull the blinker relay out and photograph the markings. But my main concern at this point is getting the bike running again. If I shorted something out and blew some fragile (and expensive) part downstream (power diodes in the alternator, anyone?), I am going to be very annoyed at myself. Parts like that usually take a lot to short out (that's why they're so expensive), and I would have noticed the spark on anything that strong.

Is it a problem that I did not disconnect the positive terminal, even though the ignition key was off? That's usually just a basic belt-and-suspenders precaution. There should not have been any power through the plate, and I don't think there's any big capacitors that run through it.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2007, 07:29:35 PM by twisting_edge »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Troubleshooting the Electrical Plate (1978 cb550k)
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2007, 07:43:52 PM »
The rectifier is unfused and always connected to the battery, regardless of keyswitch position.  It's is usually okay unless it somehow gets reversed polarity on it output, poof.

Your bike will never start with a dead battery.  Battery voltage is needed to fire the ignition coils and to stimulate the alternator into providing some power.

What is your battery voltage?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline twisting_edge

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Re: Troubleshooting the Electrical Plate (1978 cb550k)
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2007, 08:11:17 AM »
Turns out it was a bad fuse (maybe). I checked all the fuses, and they looked good, but sometimes you can damage them just by handling them (i.e., wiping off all the grease to you can see the filament.

At least, that's my story for now, and I'm sticking with it.

More likely, it was a loose connector somewhere that got plugged back in correctly the second time while I was inspecting stuff. I wish there were an easy way to run those things down so you replace the connector or otherwise fix the problem a bit more permantently.

Bike runs, though (or did, just a few minutes ago).
« Last Edit: April 24, 2007, 04:31:54 PM by twisting_edge »
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