Topic: Hondaman Ignition

[MRieck]

The ironic part....99% of  Honda dealers will not touch these bikes and goof on indviduals buying parts for them.  ::)Sad but true.

seriously. sometimes i want to kill the stupid kids at the parts counter at my local honda dealer.

Unfortunately you'll get 15 years and no parts.

[savannahcafe]

About those parts kids. Well I like to tell them I have a one of a kind bike built exactly like I wanted it. Just tell them anyone can and everyone does own a GSXR 600/ 750, how original. Is theres the red one or the red one? They hate that.

[754]

Tell them new bikes are like A-holes.. anyone can have one...


I know they were thinking of me when they said..

"You meet the NICEST people on a Honda!"   

or as RC said,

"You beat the nicest people on a Honda Honda!!"

and later Honda Honda Honda...

[TwoTired]

I apologize if If I offended you TwoTired. It was not my intent. I am puzzled over your comment regarding my headwork and your F head. I don't know if you are being sarcastic, questioning my work or someting else all together.

I'm starting to suspect that you may have inadvertently left out a strategic "not" from your:

from: MRieck on October 29, 2007, 09:12:04 PM
"....and I'm looking to start a war here."

statement.  Wouldn't most take offense (or at least become guarded) at a declaration of war?  And, how many offer services to those they've declared war upon?

Assuming an error of omission...

I was not, and never was, denigrating your skilled head work.  I think it is truly top notch and high quality.  No sarcasm intended.  I've just begun rescue of another derelict CB750F with 20K miles on it.  I'm a bit apprehensive on why it was parked, lo those many years ago...

Whether I agree or disagree with somebody on a particuliar subject has absolutely no impact on the quality or pride I take in my work. Your head would be given the same attention to detail as anybody elses. Frankly, I'm surprised my cylinder head work even entered the conversation.

It was the whole declaration of war thing...  I may have made too much of it.  Would you contract with Osama to provide defense material?

As a side note....I'm sure Hondaman's units are a big improvement over straight points. I have engaged people in this conversation over and over and over through the years...I guess I reached a point of complete melt down. I do however find it hard to compare prices for cell phones...which are sold in the millions...to the price of a Dyna S (which are are in the low thousands per year I imagine). I may be wrong but I have to think that it certainly impacts manufacturing costs.

Agreed, there is no doubt "economies of scale" go a long way toward price reductions.  However, if you applied that to the dyna units, they would be about 1/4 their current "sale" prices.  I'm certain that lack of competition in the marketplace, helps promulgate Dyna's high prices.  They are priced "what the market will bear".  I don't for a minute believe it is priced based on development, labor, and component costs, or the "price of doing business".   And, if it is, their business management is truly awful.

As another side note....Dyna does manufacture and stock all their products. They also provide free diagnostic service on their products if you feel it is not operating correctly. I have dealt with them on numerous occasions and found them to very knowledgable and helpful. This was especailly true when I installed their ARC unit on my Hayabusa.

Sorry, I can't agree that Dyna provides ANY free services. It would appear that Dyna has chosen to fund their service and support program with additional charges to each and every unit they sell.  All customers are paying dearly for it whether they need it or not.  I could argue that service should only be charged to those that need it.  And, that additional service and support charges should not be NEEDED if the quality of the units and support documentation are of high standards.  Not all companies agree with my manufacturing standards, though.

Once again...I'm sorry if you felt slighted or offended....it was not my intent.
  Mike

You (and I) have to be careful what is said to some people.  Wars can get started that way.   

As an aside:
As an electronic engineer and bona fide gadget nut.  I have been highly tempted (since 1976) by the Dyna-S.  But, it was always priced just above my "arm or leg" threshold.  It wasn't just Dyna. There were other companies that overcharged for points replacement devices, too. (Perhaps I'm just bitter... )
Anyway, I learned better points maintenance techniques.   And, that knowledge as saved me a bunch of money over the years.  In hindsight, I probably should have just designed my own points eliminator CD ignition. I think that would have been the ideal points eliminator for the SOHC4, AND get some serious voltage to the spark gap. (Though I am liking Hondaman's Coil on plug approach.)

Best to you Mike.

And anyone else reading this, too!

Cheers,

[MRieck]

I apologize if If I offended you TwoTired. It was not my intent. I am puzzled over your comment regarding my headwork and your F head. I don't know if you are being sarcastic, questioning my work or someting else all together.

I'm starting to suspect that you may have inadvertently left out a strategic "not" from your:

from: MRieck on October 29, 2007, 09:12:04 PM
"....and I'm looking to start a war here."

statement.  Wouldn't most take offense (or at least become guarded) at a declaration of war?  And, how many offer services to those they've declared war upon?

Assuming an error of omission...

I was not, and never was, denigrating your skilled head work.  I think it is truly top notch and high quality.  No sarcasm intended.  I've just begun rescue of another derelict CB750F with 20K miles on it.  I'm a bit apprehensive on why it was parked, lo those many years ago...

Whether I agree or disagree with somebody on a particular subject has absolutely no impact on the quality or pride I take in my work. Your head would be given the same attention to detail as anybody Else's. Frankly, I'm surprised my cylinder head work even entered the conversation.

It was the whole declaration of war thing...  I may have made too much of it.  Would you contract with Osama to provide defense material?

As a side note....I'm sure Hondaman's units are a big improvement over straight points. I have engaged people in this conversation over and over and over through the years...I guess I reached a point of complete melt down. I do however find it hard to compare prices for cell phones...which are sold in the millions...to the price of a Dyna S (which are are in the low thousands per year I imagine). I may be wrong but I have to think that it certainly impacts manufacturing costs.

Agreed, there is no doubt "economies of scale" go a long way toward price reductions.  However, if you applied that to the dyna units, they would be about 1/4 their current "sale" prices.  I'm certain that lack of competition in the marketplace, helps promulgate Dyna's high prices.  They are priced "what the market will bear".  I don't for a minute believe it is priced based on development, labor, and component costs, or the "price of doing business".   And, if it is, their business management is truly awful.

As another side note....Dyna does manufacture and stock all their products. They also provide free diagnostic service on their products if you feel it is not operating correctly. I have dealt with them on numerous occasions and found them to very knowledgable and helpful. This was especially true when I installed their ARC unit on my Hayabusa.

Sorry, I can't agree that Dyna provides ANY free services. It would appear that Dyna has chosen to fund their service and support program with additional charges to each and every unit they sell.  All customers are paying dearly for it whether they need it or not.  I could argue that service should only be charged to those that need it.  And, that additional service and support charges should not be NEEDED if the quality of the units and support documentation are of high standards.  Not all companies agree with my manufacturing standards, though.

Once again...I'm sorry if you felt slighted or offended....it was not my intent.
  Mike

You (and I) have to be careful what is said to some people.  Wars can get started that way.   

As an aside:
As an electronic engineer and bona fide gadget nut.  I have been highly tempted (since 1976) by the Dyna-S.  But, it was always priced just above my "arm or leg" threshold.  It wasn't just Dyna. There were other companies that overcharged for points replacement devices, too. (Perhaps I'm just bitter... )
Anyway, I learned better points maintenance techniques.   And, that knowledge as saved me a bunch of money over the years.  In hindsight, I probably should have just designed my own points eliminator CD ignition. I think that would have been the ideal points eliminator for the SOHC4, AND get some serious voltage to the spark gap. (Though I am liking Hondaman's Coil on plug approach.)

Best to you Mike.

And anyone else reading this, too!

Cheers,

Simply put...yes...I did forget to include the "not". My mistake Glad to have peace and tranquility restored.

[HondaMan]

I was in the electronic manufacturing industry for over 30 years.  It is a well known fact that electronic device prices have plummeted during that time and they continue to do so.

Any idea where I can get the triggers (pick ups) for making my own electronic ignitions ? Dyna doesnt sell just the pick ups seperately and buying a new Dyna S to rob it for parts gets expensive.
 DG

These gadgets are the "point of development" by Dyna, which allowed them to patent their designs. Their triggers were originally made of potted Hall sensor + transistor + some biasing components. Somewhere along the line, they integrated them into the tiny triggers we see today. Designing these takes lots of time and money (and testing!) to make reliable. So, they have an investment to protect. Martek had one (the 440), but didn't do enough homework: theirs was never known for reliability in racing or the street.

I, on the other hand, am one step removed from a pirate, using points that someone else designed to run a circuit that I originally designed on a college frat father's bet...    And, mine is easily calculable for life, risk, cost, etc. Mine would be a lot cheaper if I could have it built in China, but I know that technology and quality level, so would never risk my reputation on it.

[Terry in Australia]

Man, I go away from the forum for a day and all hell breaks loose! Ha ha, well I'm glad you guys have made up!

Like I said before, I really like Hondamans ignition as a genuine, cost effective alternative to a store bought electronic ignition, and I'm looking forward to the all singing, all dancing new one with the inbuilt timing light, woohoo, another great gadget, built by a mate, just like Mike's stage 3 head that I just torqued down onto my all-new (ish) 836 engine.

I'm building this engine with parts that have come from Mike, (trick head, CR carbs, M3 racing cam chain tensioner and APE adjustable cam sprocket) Sean Condon, (Megacycle cam)  and Hondaman (836 pistons, cylinders and rods) and I have to say that without their help, generosity and technical advice over the last few years, I'd still be scratching my head over my F2 restoration.

Great blokes, and experts in their chosen fields, and best of all for me, good mates. Thanks guys!  

[Steelo]

Gee Terry you are starting to pick up our esteemed Prime Ministers habits.

What did Mark Latham say about Howards relationship with George Dubya? "*rse licker"

Does it get you a free ignition?

If it does I'm up for it!!!!

LOL

[russouno]

I'm down for one of the latest and greatest Hondaman Ignitions !
I agree with the philosophy of time/profit/era/ yada yada 
could you give me the info on these units again? I've since lost the contact info.

[GammaFlat]

I'm down for one of the latest and greatest Hondaman Ignitions !
I agree with the philosophy of time/profit/era/ yada yada 
could you give me the info on these units again? I've since lost the contact info.

Here are three threads that should cover the topic for you. 

"Transistorized igntion: results so far."
http://www.sohc4.us/forums/index.php?topic=22252.0

"Transistorized ignition, points style. First ones are ready!"
http://www.sohc4.us/forums/index.php?topic=15948.0

"Transistorized Ignitions: Installations"
http://www.sohc4.us/forums/index.php?topic=27243.0

[Terry in Australia]

Gee Terry you are starting to pick up our esteemed Prime Ministers habits.

What did Mark Latham say about Howards relationship with George Dubya? "*rse licker"

Does it get you a free ignition?

If it does I'm up for it!!!!

LOL

No mate, I paid or traded for all that stuff, I just appreciate that help I've been given, and I like these guys to be recognised for the "top blokes" that they really are.

If you want an ignition, you'll have to pay for one, just like everybody else. Who's Mark Latham again, another forgotten PM "wannabe", with a big mouth and no other credentials, perhaps?

[jeanhank]

Well, that sure has been an fun thread...

So... back to Hondaman's unit...

I received it this weekend, and put it on my 750K0/K1 earlier today, replacing a 5000-mile-old stock system that was very carefully maintained by me and recently adjusted.  The install took less than an hour, even with my extreme dislike of dealing with wiring.  Mark's instructions are very well done, and includes all kinds of helpful tips and actually useful troubleshooting suggestions (I've always found troubleshooting guides in manuals for commercial products to be totally useless for people who aren't complete idiots).   I'll even venture to say that the install was fun!  I followed Mark's suggestion to set the points gap down to 0.012" so as to increase dwell, now that there's way less load on the points.

Bike started first kick and I noticed a more regular idle.   Way less smelly fumes in the exhaust -- perhaps I'm getting a better burn?  Exhaust note at idle is crisper.

Much better throttle response!   When snapping open the throttle, bike growls and winds up almost immediately.  That little hiccup is gone.  A little change like this really improves the riding experience.

Midrange and top end has definitely seen an improvement as well... way exceeding my expectations.  The bike is much more eager to wind up.  This eagerness is clearly heard in the exhaust note as well, which is much smoother... dare I say happier?  I'm sure you know how these bikes definitely vocalize how well they are running.  I feel a lot more pick-up at freeway speeds, especially in the 70-90mph range... didn't have a chance or the gumption to take it above that in the city today.   

Props to Hondaman!  It really is more than just a "new points" feeling with the Hondaman Ignition.  I haven't tried the DYNA ignitions, but I feel like Hondaman is selling himself a little short when he talks about the abilities of his ignition.  It's probably the best $70 I've spent on my bike!  And if what other people have said about fuel economy and reliability are true, well I just don't see the need to spend over twice that on just the basic DYNA if you don't have other serious modications already in your engine. 

Thank you Mark.  For the cost of a cheap tire, most of the people on this forum can make a real and tangible performance gains on their bike.  Highly recommended.

[HondaMan]

Ride on, my friend!
I've never had an unhappy customer.
That's why I make 'em.   

[S-Dog]

Ride on, my friend!
I've never had an unhappy customer.
That's why I make 'em.   

I am unhappy...  The only reason though is that it doesn't seem to be installing itself.  I REALLY have to get cracking and install it after reading that kind of review.

[rbmgf7]

i've been hovering around reading about these modules hondaman makes.

i took a look at dyna's website and spotted this.

http://www.dynaonline.com/english/dyna_boosters.htm

do both of these modules work on the same principles?

i'm intersted in getting one once i get some more dough, either dyna's or hondaman's.

[HondaMan]

i've been hovering around reading about these modules hondaman makes.

i took a look at dyna's website and spotted this.

http://www.dynaonline.com/english/dyna_boosters.htm

do both of these modules work on the same principles?

i'm intersted in getting one once i get some more dough, either dyna's or hondaman's.

If you get the Dyna one, be sure to also install new points. That unit does not cope well with points that are already burned or pitted.

And, I'll bet it doesn't carry a 5-year warranty. 

[Terry in Australia]

Yeah, bugger that Mark, it's $100.00, but it doesn't have a switch to change between points/booster and "off" positions for increased security, nor does it have a flashing blue LED timing light built in, and it's only got a 1 year warranty? No thanks!

"Dynatek Boosters


Order Yours Now

Boost ignition power in your points equipped motorcycle.The unique Dyna Ignition Booster improves performance by transforming the usual inconsistent electrical surges into precisely controlled bursts of energy to the coil for more thorough and efficient combustion.


SPECIFICATIONS:
No more burned points; current reduced to 0.1 amp
Module is unaffected by dirt, moisture, oil or vibration
Ultra fast spark voltage rise time; 50% faster than points
Extends spark plug life
1-Year factory warranty
Single and dual ignition models available


Part No.  Item Price 
DBR-1 Single Points $69.99       
DBR-2 Dual Points $99.99"       
 

 

[HondaMan]

I'm down for one of the latest and greatest Hondaman Ignitions !
I agree with the philosophy of time/profit/era/ yada yada 
could you give me the info on these units again? I've since lost the contact info.

Russono:
Did you get the info? PM me, if not.

[Terry in Australia]

Well I'm just about to take my K0 for a ride, and I thought I should quickly give an update on the performance of Hondaman's "Test" unit that I installed last year. Originally I was gonna install it in my K1 with Dyna 3 OHM coils, but decided that the K0 needed it more than the K1, so the K0 "got the nod" with it's stock points and Dyna 5 OHM coils.

The day I installed the Hondaman ignition I also installed new NGK "Iridium" plugs, and a new OEM points plate assembly. The bike started ok and ran ok, but wasn't brilliant, to be honest. When I started it up it'd never fire up on four cylinders right away, and even after adjusting the ignition timing, valve clearances, carb synching, replacing the coils with OEM coils, installing new header copper gaskets, new HM300 baffles etc, I just couldn't make it run much better. Weird, or what?

And now for the revelation. Last weekend I pulled out the super-duper Iridium plugs and re-installed the NGK D8EA plugs that were in it when I bought the bike from Andy Morris, and VAROOM! It started on all four right away, and now doesn't miss a beat! As I said, it starts right away, Idles much smoother, warms up much quicker, and "feels" more powerful! I briefly rode the bike when I first received it and it felt good then, but now it just feels much "crisper"? Very nice Hondaman, very nice indeed...............     

[Patrick]

I have been extremely pleased with mine from the first, Terry. I, however, never tried to use snooty iridium plugs with it. It worked perfectly with NGKs at $1.50 a pop, so why spring for the expensive plugs?

[Terry in Australia]

I have been extremely pleased with mine from the first, Terry. I, however, never tried to use snooty iridium plugs with it. It worked perfectly with NGKs at $1.50 a pop, so why spring for the expensive plugs?

Don't worry Pat, like you, I am both "as tight as a fish's asss", (and that's water-tight) and totally without "Snoot". I won the "letter of the month" in a motorcycle rag that I buy, and the prize was the Iridium plugs.

Over here they're around 20 bucks each, which equates to almost two bottles of Makers Mark for a set, so you know that I wouldn't be buying a set, ha ha! Cheers, Terry.

[HondaMan]

Whenever I look at the iridium plugs, I see a dissipation of spark energy, letting it split too easily between two or more landing points. To make this work well, you must have LOTS of excess spark power. Without a CDI or the modern coil-on-plug designs, the spark duration and peak in the simple ignitions we have is just too short for real good multi-fire-point sparks.

The iridiums are supposed to build a plasma field in the area between the center pin and the outer arms, which then extends the spark. And over the long term, multiple landing sites ensures that at least one will still be close to spec after 80,000 miles, because the erosion is spread around them a lot more.

But, here's the down side, when used with "standard" coils like our SOHC units: the gap is too big and the multiple landing points raises the capacitance. This bleeds off significant amounts of the marginal spark pulse (1.5mS typical), resulting in a shorter overall pulse. The wider gap (unless you go to a LOT of trouble to regap them) makes it harder for low engine speeds to work efficiently, as the plasma zone dissipates very quickly until it heats up real good, like on a 90-degree day.

Using the Dyna green 3-ohm coils would help a little, but the Dyna coils plus standard plugs still fire longer (with points and/or Hondaman ignition) when it counts.

I would expect the 5-ohm Dyna coils have less spark voltage than Honda's stock coils, but that's a guess on my part. One day, I'll get to measure some, then know for sure. But, the physics of the coil, with more primary impedance, implies a slower charge time and similarly slower discharge buildup. Combining that with Iridium gaps would make a hard-to-start bike, for sure. This seems like what you, Terry, have found. Can you try the 3-ohm coils in their place?

Another attempt: remove some of the grounding arms. The iridiums I have seen have 4 landing arms: make it 2, or 1, to get the advantage of the higher-conductivity materials in use. This will also increase the fuel flow THROUGH the plug gaps: remember that these are swirl-burn engines (unless you've hemi-ed the heads), designed for a spread-spark effect my moving the gases through the spark. The longer the spark, the wider the flamefront, which equals more torque, cooler operation, etc.

[HondaMan]

Some of you have asked for some pictures of the units: here's some. The 3-box pix is a comparison of the non-Dyna-compatible in a custom case (blue), a "Basic" unit's case (middle), and a Dyna-compatible, custom case (gold).

The "Basic" unit measures about 2"w x 4"l x 1.1" thick. The small (blue) custom is about the same length, but wider at about 2.5", and about 1" thick. The larger custom is about 4.75" long, 2.5" wide, 1" thick.

The red one is a custom I built for another SOHC4 rider, to match his 750 resto!

[JZEROE]

Can I run an electronic tach on a Hondaman ignition without suffering the dirty signal syndrome so common to a points setup?

[HondaMan]

Can I run an electronic tach on a Hondaman ignition without suffering the dirty signal syndrome so common to a points setup?

Well, since it mimics the points, but "cleaner", I would think so. You'd need to tie into the coil-side wires instead of the points-side wires, as the points are low-current devices on this ignition. The coil side always looks like fresh, clean points would make it look: if the tach works OK in that scenario, I would imagine it would work.

We could work out something if it didn't, and you wanted to send it back...