Topic: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things

[OApb]

Hmmm...This might be my first mod of the winter season, after of course I freshen up this tired old motor. no sense in having all this power without a motor that doesnt run right

[750essess]

It really is sweet not to have to worry about if the battery is gonna be dead. Can walk out to it anytime and hit the button and turns over instantly. Not real expensive either if u can machine parts yourself and catch some luck finding the rotor and stator.

754 just noticed you asked about making a shorter cover... yes it would be possible to take 19mm out of the cover instead of making the stator spacer, now if its it worth the trouble to get 19mm of extra clearance is up to you.

[J.Webster Designs]

how has the VFR setup been treating you???

[Retro Rocket]

how has the VFR setup been treating you???

Good question, also you said somewhere that you didn't need the spacer for the rotor if you shortened the cover,was it 18mm ?, can you explain this in a bit more detail please ? Covering what is needed to run it like that, i have a mate that says he can shorten the cover for me..  also, how much lighter is the VFR rotor...

Mick

[750essess]

The spacer in the cover was 19mm so if you took that out of the cover you wouldnt need it. Still need the adapter for the flywheel and drill for starter clutch. I was guessing it was about half as heavy, but not sure. I have a similar flywheel and stock one I will weigh when I get a chance. The charging system is working good so far, only got to ride it a couple times though, its 40 deg f around here now.

I decided to get the microquirt running ignition a few weeks ago and have it working but have some noise problems. For the toothed wheel I used an xr80 12 tooth sprocket mounted on the stock center section of the points cam and used a vr senor out of an old atc110 i had lying around. Ground out one tooth for the missing tooth and mounted the sensor to a modified stock points plate. Will post some pics soon.

[MJL]

If its maintaining volts it providing enough amps. You also need to drill the flywheel for the starter clutch. Yes using the vfr8000 reg/rect.

That is true, but I would still like to know how many amps are needed to be able to run FI at idle.  Is there any way you can measure or do you know what the VFR alternator puts out?

Maybe I missed it, but what year are the VFR parts?

[750essess]

I'll try to measure the current at idle some time, to get an idea though it pretty much maxed out the stock system, so whatever that puts out is close. As far as I can tell all vfr800 alternators are similar in size just connectors are different and regulators.

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

All the work you're doing is very interesting. I'm going to ask a question you may already have covered but I didn't want to go through all the many pages. Hope you don't mind. Have you tried a 750A field coil to increase your output? 290W vs 210W. The 750A field coil measures out at 4.1ohm vs 7.2ohm for the standard field coil.

[750essess]

The auto alternator may work, did not know about it until already started on vfr modification. Did some current measurements. Saw as much as 22 amps through the alternator output wire. It takes 14 amps when the switch is turned on with the headlight on low. 9.3 amps on but not running.
taillight takes 1.6a
headlight 6.9 a low beam
fuel pump 4 amps  (idle)
coils 2.5 amp (idle)
injectors 2 amps (idle)
total 17 amps
17 times 14.5v = 246 watts just run at idle
The auto puts out 290 watts according to info on this thread, probably would just barely keep up
vfr is rated at 497 watts according to a quick search on google, plenty of power.

[jaguar]

i would love to see more pics.
we should also get a list of all parts and work needed.  kinda like a DIY.
i might start gathering parts...

[Soos]

Doing this VFR mod would be a godsend for the headlight!!
I wonder if this would work on a 650?






l8r

[bradweingartner]

This is a great thread, I love the VFR charging system upgrade.

Megasquirt EFI happens to be something I know a lot about. I have 8 or 9 cars under my belt now. I've seen a lot of back and forth without a lot of clear answers regarding kicking over a MS Bike (a project I have on the back burner myself).

MS EFI allows the programming of a priming pulse. When you turn the key on, it will squirt a pre-determined amount of fuel , adjusted for temperature. IF you are running MS in a Fuel only and keeping a stand-alone ignition I see absolutely no reason why you can't kick it over. In fact, with a port injection I bet it'd be EASIER to start because your fuel should end up sitting on top of the valve ready to go. It won't have to travel through the intake from the carb.

Now, if you plan on controlling ignition with MS too, it adds more difficultly based on HOW you trigger the ECU. If you use a missing tooth wheel, 4-1, 12-1, 24-1, hidden under the points cover, it's going to take at least a couple revolutions to get a sync and even then your RPM threshold may not be attainable with the kicker - you'll have the fuel from the priming pulse but no ignition because you have no sync. The flip side is your ignition timing is going to be more accurate and more tunable!

Now it's also possible (with microsquirt for sure anyway) to use a trigger with the points or a similar two sensors 180 out on the crank with a single "tooth". A Dyna2000 trigger plate comes to mind and would work perfect I bet. The feature is called Dual Spark. The timing will not be as accurate as with the multi-toothed wheel but I kinda think it won't require a sync and should just fire the coil on the first trigger. I'm kinda curious as to whether that works in practice or only in theory. I'll look into it... if it works like I think it works then it should be kickable too.

So bottom line, with fuel only, yes absolutely will be kick-able with some fine tuning. Ignition control... time will tell.

[HavocTurbo]

Now it's also possible (with microsquirt for sure anyway) to use a trigger with the points or a similar two sensors 180 out on the crank with a single "tooth". A Dyna2000 trigger plate comes to mind and would work perfect I bet. The feature is called Dual Spark. The timing will not be as accurate as with the multi-toothed wheel but I kinda think it won't require a sync and should just fire the coil on the first trigger. I'm kinda curious as to whether that works in practice or only in theory. I'll look into it... if it works like I think it works then it should be kickable too.

I'll agree.

This would be a similar design for the first FI bikes that were produced. Should be very kickable if tuned right.

[750essess]

I tried using the dual trigger setup with the dyna 2000 pickups and I couldnt get it to trigger the second output at the right time. I will say it was the first thing I tried to do with the microsquirt so I could have had something not set right. My theory was the crank speed varied too much for the timing to be read accurately with just one "tooth". Just finished up a 12-1 trigger wheel for it and it does take a few revs before it syncs up. For kick start, isnt there a feature where it uses trigger return for the crank timing instead of calculated? Would need a trigger wheel setup for this kind of thing though I think.

I dont see why the VFR alt couldnt be adapted to the 650, is the crank taper the same as a 750?

[jaguar]

i need to go back through this thread and figure out what parts came from where and start trolling ebay...

[Retro Rocket]

i need to go back through this thread and figure out what parts came from where and start trolling ebay...

I t would be great if it was all listed in one post now it is all worked out.  I have links to 3 sites including this one, all with great info but it takes a couple of hours to go through it all and find all the useful stuff..

Mick

[jaguar]

yeah it it was just one shopping list to go off of and a final DIY that would be great for people.
i bet the op would be able to do this the best

[750essess]

Well its kind of difficult to do a list. No one has devised a simple way to mount the tb's to the motor that I know of. What is required will vary depending on what tb's u go with. Some have map sensors on board, some dont for example. Also the tank modifications can be done several ways and the parts required will vary accordingly. I've been in contact with another fellow doing an ex250 feulie and he is using a fuel pump from a suzuki lt-r450 quad. Its external, small in size and low current draw. Now that there are injected dirt bikes, suitable fuel pumps should be easier to find.

[OApb]

Has anyone thought about an external belt driven alternator? I cant remember seeing anything or not. I know there are some very small alt's available for drag racing and custom cars that are about the size around as a softball and pump out about 50 amps or so. If I can pick one up cheap I wont mind being the guinea pig

[jaguar]

is there a list of parts that are better for the FI?
a kind of suggested list of parts?

just trying to get the best way of going through with a FI set up

[lordmember1969]

Hi 
This is a great tread... It inspired me to do an fuel injection conversion myself Never got the carbs sorted out anyway.. Went for the gsxr throttlebodies.. Was pretty easy to install.. Have ordered the microsquirt and are waiting for it.. So wondered if i could "pick your brains" when it comes to wiring and setting up the microsquirt?? Have not decided on fuel pump yet so that is also an issue?

This is the parts I am waiting for..

2 x GM Closed Element CLT / IAT Sensor with Pigtail
2 x 3/8" NPT Aluminum Weld-On Bung for IAT or CLT
Sensor1-pigtail for the GM 3 BAT MAP SENSOR
1-GM 3- BAR MAP SENSOR
and of course the microsquirt..

Do I miss something, or is this all i need??

will appreciate any help


Thank you..

[traveler]

Too bad this is for 750 not 550....bummer

~Joe

[lordmember1969]

Do you know the spacing between the intake on the 550? Should not be to hard to make one fit if the spacing is not far from the 750? (gsxr trottlebodies have 80-80-80) very close to the 750..

[750essess]

Hi 
This is a great tread... It inspired me to do an fuel injection conversion myself Never got the carbs sorted out anyway.. Went for the gsxr throttlebodies.. Was pretty easy to install.. Have ordered the microsquirt and are waiting for it.. So wondered if i could "pick your brains" when it comes to wiring and setting up the microsquirt?? Have not decided on fuel pump yet so that is also an issue?

This is the parts I am waiting for..

2 x GM Closed Element CLT / IAT Sensor with Pigtail
2 x 3/8" NPT Aluminum Weld-On Bung for IAT or CLT
Sensor1-pigtail for the GM 3 BAT MAP SENSOR
1-GM 3- BAR MAP SENSOR
and of course the microsquirt..

Do I miss something, or is this all i need??

will appreciate any help


Thank you..

I found since the weather has got cold that using the oil temp for warm up doesn't change fast enough. I am converting it to a cylinder head temp sensor from a vw pn 0 280 130 012 got it from www.busdepot.com . Still haven't decided where im going to mount it yet. Did some test with a sensor just stuck between the cylinder fins and seemed to work ok. The iat sensor doesnt need to be mounted in the manifold you can just wire tie it near the intakes, but wont hurt if u do. What did u use for manifolds?

[lordmember1969]

I kept the rubberboots on the Throttlebodies and made spacers to the intace rubber.. Used a flatbar some modified tubes and did some welding and grinding Pretty straight forward.. And did not turn out bad either:) Made the manifolds a bit longer but plenty of room for some pods or air filters..Can take pictures but do not know how to upload them here?

Do I miss some parts?

Thanks:)