Topic: CB750F - decent deal I think (make that thought) UPDATE: It's over

[Cvillechopper]

First, possession is 9/10s of the law.  I am actually able to get a bill of sale from the guy that sold me the bike.  I didn't at the time because it didn't seem important.  Lesson learned.

The person that would like "their" bike back sold it voluntarily and notified the state of that fact.  Now that no one has titled it and he was alerted to the fact, he wants it back, regardless of having already received compensation for it.  I understand.

What really gets me is that we talked for almost an hour on Saturday and he understood that I had come to possess the vehicle in good faith, had put my hard earned money into it, and spent many hours working on it.  He said that I deserved the bike and that he was glad it found it's way into good hands.

To then go back on the statement, especially saying something about me learning a lesson, is not right (in my little view of the world).  

I agree with the mechanics lean and wouldn't try that.  I'd be more likely to strip the bike and get rid of the parts before he came to pick it up EXCEPT that I can't justify doing that to a perfectly good bike.  

[750goes]

I do not know the titling rules and regulations in US of A, but if that happened to me in Australia, the state government would tell the guy who has sold it - stiff #$%* - game over, you sold it once, you can't sell it and then because someone has been lazy and not transferred the title (probably because of the low value of $40) that when someone wants to legitimately re-title the bike then I believe the previous owner (who apparently flogged it anyway) has no legal or moral right to the bike.

Like I said before tell him to stick it up his aarrssee if he wants it back....then demand $3000 for your wasted time and effort..., and hit him with a summons for theft or trespass if he enters your property and tries to take the bike. screw him

[DammitDan]

"I'll give you the money you paid for the bike and the parts.  I guess you'll have to chalk your time up to a learning experience."

That phrase makes my hackles raise...  He's trying to take advantage of you bigtime.

What's wrong with making him take you to small claims court?

[bgfootball67]

Man this situation sucks big time any way you look at it!  If it were me, I would go back to the shop in which you purchased the bike and get a notarized bill of sale along with a notarized letter stating the circumstances of the shop purchasing it off the owner.  Next I would find a friend who is an attorney or married to one and see how to proceed.

Being a stand up guy, does not include being screw by this douche bag.  It is one thing to work on your own bike and restore it and get it running but to have him step out of no where when you are finish and demand it back after verbally telling you it's yours is nuts....  Most of the shops around here are charging anywhere from $60 - $90 an hour for labor.  Figure the amount of time you have any charge him for it plus parts, if you want.  I would also stash the bike at a friends house until this is all settled.  I am all for doing the right thing and being a stand up guy, but there has to be limits.....  My 2 cents..

[Cvillechopper]

Cvillechopper, you sound like a good guy.  You want to do the right thing because it is right and for no other reason.  The problem comes when it is hard to know what is right.  As you have told the story, it is not right that the SOB ends up with the bike.  The right thing is for you to have it.  To me the choice is how much do you want to complicate your life. 

One thing for sure, I'd make sure he has the thousand bucks with him before he even sees the bike.  The mechanic's lien idea sounds like a possibility, too.

I plan on counting it out before I open the garage.

The right thing is hard to determine at times.  Legally, VA considers him the rightful owner even though he signed a piece of paper saying he sold it.  I could spend money in court and get ownership but the entire deal is tainted.  This guy acting like a douche really ruins it for me.  What has been some GREAT time spent with this machine has been reduced to me wasting my time. 
I'd not have near the problem that I do if he were actually going to ride it and hadn't said that bit about a lesson.  In a year or two the bike will be unridable again and my time will have been spent away from my wife with nothing to show but a lesser faith in the goodness of the average person.

[TwoTired]

First, possession is 9/10s of the law. 

Not where state filed ownership papers are involved.  You can take possession of a rented car or house.  You still don't own it.

I am actually able to get a bill of sale from the guy that sold me the bike.  I didn't at the time because it didn't seem important.  Lesson learned.

If you can gather bill of sale evidence back to the current registered owner's signature, you have a strong ownership transfer case.  And, I expect the DMV may even recognize that paper trail.  Otherwise, cut your losses.

Again I say, that unless you are business, and/or have a signed document authorizing work on the bike, a mechanics lean will be dismissed in court.  Your work was volunteered.

Cheers,

[Cvillechopper]

Again I say, that unless you are business, and/or have a signed document authorizing work on the bike, a mechanics lean will be dismissed in court.  Your work was volunteered.

Cheers,

Absolutely agree. 

[Geeto67]

I can't speak as to other states but here in NY, if you have had the vehicle for 3+ years and paperwork showing a transfer (outside of the title) then the bike is yours. The only problem is that the owner of the bike whose name the original title is in has to know where the bike is and not try to reclaim it.

Have you actually spoken to a lawyer about this? There is a lot of posturing on this site, but it might be nice to get some actual expirenced advice.

Before anything else is done, meet the guy (at some neutral public place) to "verify" that he has the correct title. In addition to checking the vin on the title as matching your frame, see if he has signed the title over (part of the transfer process).

Personally, if it were me I could go two ways on this:

take his money, buy a nice runner ($1000 should be enough to get a really decent runner) and tell the guy he should eff off and pray to god he never runs into you again.

or

Wait till he shows up for the bike and set it on fire in front of him. That way he can have all the fun you have had cleaning it up. If you are against the fire, just take a large mallet and beat the #$%* out of it.

Every town has a shady auto recycler - take anything for metal scrap. Take everything without a serial number off the bike and send the rest.

as someone who is stupidly sentimental about machines I can sympathize...but...at somepoint there has to be a limit of how far you will be put out for something once mass produced at a rate of 100s by the hour. The sooner you move on the better you feel, no lie.

[chrislib]

I would go down fighting, it looks like you have done some very nice work on that bike.

[heffay]

There is a lot of posturing on this site

agreed, wholeheartedly!

cville, my bikes can keep it company in my garage while all this blows over 

i'd be happy to get the thousand bucks after spending less than that... i'd also be happy with going to the shop i purchased from and getting a bill of sale... although, in colorado, a title is bill of sale and simply a bill of sale won't do.

good luck and great work on that lonely bike.

[heffay]

or... maybe its not lonely and really wants to be left alone... 

[InaneCathode]

Its better for you to just give the bike up. It's legally his. I know it really does suck to put alot of work into something for nothing but in the end you end up coming out a better person. You can look back and know you did the right thing instead of "sticking it" to him or trying to screw him over too. That'll just bring you down to his level. He's offered money for it, i'd take that and run with it. The other guy has got to know that its legally his and he can just simply report it stolen and have it back for free.
He might be trying to do you a solid, and he might be trying to screw you over. It doesnt matter what he does, it's up to you to make a decision you can sleep with.

[Marksan]

I can't speak as to other states but here in NY, if you have had the vehicle for 3+ years and paperwork showing a transfer (outside of the title) then the bike is yours. The only problem is that the owner of the bike whose name the original title is in has to know where the bike is and not try to reclaim it.

Have you actually spoken to a lawyer about this? There is a lot of posturing on this site, but it might be nice to get some actual expirenced advice.

Before anything else is done, meet the guy (at some neutral public place) to "verify" that he has the correct title. In addition to checking the vin on the title as matching your frame, see if he has signed the title over (part of the transfer process).

Personally, if it were me I could go two ways on this:

take his money, buy a nice runner ($1000 should be enough to get a really decent runner) and tell the guy he should eff off and pray to god he never runs into you again.

or

Wait till he shows up for the bike and set it on fire in front of him. That way he can have all the fun you have had cleaning it up. If you are against the fire, just take a large mallet and beat the #$%* out of it.

Every town has a shady auto recycler - take anything for metal scrap. Take everything without a serial number off the bike and send the rest.

as someone who is stupidly sentimental about machines I can sympathize...but...at somepoint there has to be a limit of how far you will be put out for something once mass produced at a rate of 100s by the hour. The sooner you move on the better you feel, no lie.

Good advice,
  Personally i think the #$%*e deserves to be "hung drawn and quartered'. l too get attached to machinery i treat all my machines with care and respect..............dont get me wrong i carefully and respectfully give em all a good thrashing every now and then but i understand how you feel. Haveing read the post, you seem to be a stand up guy, and this Mouk is a grade 1 pisstaker and thinks your a soft touch.

 lf you cast your mind back how much information did you give this guy...............is he trading on the fact you care for your name and intend starting a business??

Hope it turns out RIGHT

[dustyc]

When you called GA's DMV, did you tell them the bike's age?  I think vehicles 20 years and older don't require a title to register, then once you've registered it, you can apply for a title. 

When I went to register my 500 with just a bill of sale, the lady said the name didn't match the last titled owner.  I asked if it was a problem or if that meant the bike was stolen.  She said it wasn't a problem, did something on the computer and that was that.  If I felt inclined to do so, I could get a title at this point. 

I agree that you should ask a lawyer.  I wouldn't hand over the bike until having some questions answered.  I wouldn't try to do anything devious with getting a title to jump his claim. -That's where you'll lose sleep.  I'd get the bill of sale and if he tried being pushy, I'd tell him he can call the police and take it to court.  You'll get an answer there one way or another.   

Don't let him ruin the bike for you.  It may be a headache, but he's trying to take advantage of you and that's not right.  It's not necessarily a taint on the bike.  And don't beat yourself up.  It's not the end of the world, just paperwork that wasn't filed by someone. 

One thing I think we all agree on is that this guy is a pile of sh!t.  I think he's got some bad karma heading his way.

[merc2dogs]

Pricewise, frome reading what you've written,I'd say you're making out alright, depending entirely on what you've put into it as far as parts go.

 doesn't sound like he is being a real pain,  he did offer the $1000. I'd consider it a decent return on a   $300 investment with a couple weeks work

 But, if you would rather keep the bike, just to tilt it a bit in your favor, it would be better if the bke wouldn't start when he shows up, Don't do any serious damage, can't see doing that to any bike.
 
 He may just want it back because it's fixed, if he finds out it isn't fixed, he may lose interest. Either way get the money before letting him take the bike, and get it in cash.

ALLWAYS ALLWAYS ALLWAYS get a bill of sale, for one thing it proves that you are operating in good faith which gives you a solid base to stand on if any problem crops up later on,  it proves that all the work done was done for your own benefit because you had every reason to believe the bike was legally yours.

Ken.

[Marksan]

Pricewise, frome reading what you've written,I'd say you're making out alright, depending entirely on what you've put into it as far as parts go.

 doesn't sound like he is being a real pain,  he did offer the $1000. I'd consider it a decent return on a   $300 investment with a couple weeks work

 But, if you would rather keep the bike, just to tilt it a bit in your favor, it would be better if the bke wouldn't start when he shows up, Don't do any serious damage, can't see doing that to any bike.
 
 He may just want it back because it's fixed, if he finds out it isn't fixed, he may lose interest. Either way get the money before letting him take the bike, and get it in cash.


ALLWAYS ALLWAYS ALLWAYS get a bill of sale, for one thing it proves that you are operating in good faith which gives you a solid base to stand on if any problem crops up later on,  it proves that all the work done was done for your own benefit because you had every reason to believe the bike was legally yours.

Ken.

.........................So yer man heres time is worth wot $350 a week..............gimme a break Ken thats bordering on insulting,FOR RESTO WORK WTF just because you have a love affair with what you do does not me you should be short changed for you labours  PERIOD

[InaneCathode]

Pricewise, frome reading what you've written,I'd say you're making out alright, depending entirely on what you've put into it as far as parts go.

 doesn't sound like he is being a real pain,  he did offer the $1000. I'd consider it a decent return on a   $300 investment with a couple weeks work

 But, if you would rather keep the bike, just to tilt it a bit in your favor, it would be better if the bke wouldn't start when he shows up, Don't do any serious damage, can't see doing that to any bike.
 
 He may just want it back because it's fixed, if he finds out it isn't fixed, he may lose interest. Either way get the money before letting him take the bike, and get it in cash.


ALLWAYS ALLWAYS ALLWAYS get a bill of sale, for one thing it proves that you are operating in good faith which gives you a solid base to stand on if any problem crops up later on,  it proves that all the work done was done for your own benefit because you had every reason to believe the bike was legally yours.

Ken.

.........................So yer man heres time is worth wot $350 a week..............gimme a break Ken thats bordering on insulting,FOR RESTO WORK WTF just because you have a love affair with what you do does not me you should be short changed for you labours  PERIOD

Basically its a stolen bike. He might not have stolen it, but legally its a stolen bike. Maybe not by intent, but certainly legally speaking its a stolen bike. Ownership changed without the consent of the owner. He might have listed it as sold, but the title is in his name, and he's in possession of the title. The fact that the actual owner of the bike wants to give cash for the time spent on restoring a bike is pretty surprising. The hours spent fixing a bike arent the same as the hours spent flipping burgers, pushing papers, or digging ditches. The fact he's getting ANY money out of this rather than a half dozen sherriffs deputies at his front door is a bonus.
If you think your time spent on putting love and energy into a bike is equal to the lack of love and energy spent at digging ditches i honestly pity you. The time spent with your machine is priceless, without price. You cant tell someone you put, say 50 dollars an hour of love and energy into something. You price your work to make back the parts plus whatever you think you might have put into it time wise, thats up to who evers doing the restoration work, period.

[Marksan]

Pricewise, frome reading what you've written,I'd say you're making out alright, depending entirely on what you've put into it as far as parts go.

 doesn't sound like he is being a real pain,  he did offer the $1000. I'd consider it a decent return on a   $300 investment with a couple weeks work

 But, if you would rather keep the bike, just to tilt it a bit in your favor, it would be better if the bke wouldn't start when he shows up, Don't do any serious damage, can't see doing that to any bike.
 
 He may just want it back because it's fixed, if he finds out it isn't fixed, he may lose interest. Either way get the money before letting him take the bike, and get it in cash.


ALLWAYS ALLWAYS ALLWAYS get a bill of sale, for one thing it proves that you are operating in good faith which gives you a solid base to stand on if any problem crops up later on,  it proves that all the work done was done for your own benefit because you had every reason to believe the bike was legally yours.

Ken.

.........................So yer man heres time is worth wot $350 a week..............gimme a break Ken thats bordering on insulting,FOR RESTO WORK WTF just because you have a love affair with what you do does not me you should be short changed for you labours  PERIOD

Basically its a stolen bike. He might not have stolen it, but legally its a stolen bike. Maybe not by intent, but certainly legally speaking its a stolen bike. Ownership changed without the consent of the owner. He might have listed it as sold, but the title is in his name, and he's in possession of the title. The fact that the actual owner of the bike wants to give cash for the time spent on restoring a bike is pretty surprising. The hours spent fixing a bike arent the same as the hours spent flipping burgers, pushing papers, or digging ditches. The fact he's getting ANY money out of this rather than a half dozen sherriffs deputies at his front door is a bonus.
If you think your time spent on putting love and energy into a bike is equal to the lack of love and energy spent at digging ditches i honestly pity you. The time spent with your machine is priceless, without price. You cant tell someone you put, say 50 dollars an hour of love and energy into something. You price your work to make back the parts plus whatever you think you might have put into it time wise, thats up to who evers doing the restoration work, period.

Edited by Moderators.

[InaneCathode]

Calm down there cupcake, im not calling you a burger flipper.
Although with your attitude i can now understand the confusion 

[Bonafide]

alabama,georgia and i think tennessee used to at least take a bill of sale.

Thanks Mark.  I just called the Georgia DMV and they said no go.  So far, VA, MD, GA, won't accept a bill of sale without an actual title.  I'll try TN and AL this afternoon just in case. 

Just to point out, you are incorrect about Georgia not allowing a Bill Of Sale. They most certainly do. For ANY vehicle 1985 and older, a Title is optional and you can most certainly register it for a tag with a Bill of Sale, Copy of Insurance (binder), and proof you are a Georgia resident. Not trying to flame, but I wanted others reading this thread to understand Georgia will allow it's residents who can prove proper ownership of an older bike to register it for a tag (no title is required).

http://motor.etax.dor.ga.gov/motor/titles/required.asp
http://motor.etax.dor.ga.gov/motor/registration/regrequirements.asp

[L.A. Nomad........]

Before I buy a bike in California here is what I usually do, assuming there is no pink slip/ owner title.

I first go to my local AAA office and tell them I'm thinking about buying a bike and here is the Lic# or Vin number. If I forgot to pay my membership, I'll ask a friend with AAA(America Automobile Association)  to check it for me. This can only be done by walking in the office!

Three things may happen:

1-They tell me there is no existing registration/ no record. Great! This means no back fees or previous owner problems. I can register it under my name or fix it up and sell it with no worries! I sign a paper that says Joe Doe sold it to me for $50 or whatever, about $70 later I have a new title and Lic plate. I win!

2-They tell me there is record= non-operation permit, old back fees or parking ticket fees. Usually there will be fees to pay, I'll weight my options and decide if it's worth it or not. I buy cheap, so usually it's worth it. Or I might buy to just part out. You heard me! 

A non-running bike that looks like it has been sitting for years normally means: the previous owner lost interest in it, otherwise he would have reported it stolen! I might try and locate the previous owner, if I have an address. Usually PO is not at address! I win!

California only keeps motorcycle records for 6-7 years before it drops them from their central computer. It will stay in the computer longer if it's stolen, has a non-operation permit or maybe parking tickets.

3-They tell me it was stolen. I'll ask how long ago! hahaha! I'll report it! 

L.A. Nomad

[Cvillechopper]

Basically its a stolen bike. He might not have stolen it, but legally its a stolen bike. Maybe not by intent, but certainly legally speaking its a stolen bike. Ownership changed without the consent of the owner. He might have listed it as sold, but the title is in his name, and he's in possession of the title.

Just to clarify.  This guy does NOT have the title.  He signed it and gave it to the shop owner he sold it to.  DMV simply doesn't have anyone else listed as having a title after him.  From there, the bike/title changed hands at least twice from what the person I bought it from told me.  This guy, by VA law, is the only one that can get a title unless he does not claim it within 30 days.  My understanding (based on the seller telling me) was that the last person to have a title had died.  He was obviously incorrect.  If that had been the case, I'd have a title as soon as the certified letter was sent back as undeliverable.

About the Georgia title, I misunderstood the lady at DMV.  She did say something about getting a registration, but that I wouldn't be able to get a title.  My assumption was that a title would still be required to sell the bike back to a VA resident to get titled. 

[sandcastcb750]

If it were me, I'd take the $1000 and run. The bike has documentation problems and it isn't meant to be.

Hey, consider the rule of 72.

Judging by the time you had this bike , a month , and you tripled your money, you got more than 850% annual interest rate.

Better than the bank or anybody else recently on this planet.

[heffay]

.............digging ditches, flipping burgers  PITY  i will not qualify that supercilous BS with a answer, save your pity for those who come into daily contact with yourself!! Arrogant $#@$ (edit)

first of all... why is that arrogant?  he was stating that time spent with a motorcycle is almost still your own even if you get paid while ditch digging requires some serious work for #$%*e pay.  he wasn't saying ditch diggers are scum, he was saying their pay is scum.  are you a ditch digger?

second of all... why are you calling other members here names?  if you didn't know, that is against forum rules. 

lastly, you spelled your big word wrong and it was supposed to be an AN. 

[Cvillechopper]

If it were me, I'd take the $1000 and run. The bike has documentation problems and it isn't meant to be.

Hey, consider the rule of 72.

Judging by the time you had this bike , a month , and you tripled your money, you got more than 850% annual interest rate.

Better than the bank or anybody else recently on this planet.

Not quite tripled my money.  I'll have about $300 in parts as well as the $300 I spent on the bike.  More like a 66% profit (labor not included).
Just to make it perfectly clear, the money is not the main thing that hurts with this deal.  I was only planning on selling it to my friend for about $1,200. (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=31110.0)

After talking with my wife (aka. the voice of reason) I'm making peace with the fact that this bike just wasn't meant to be the one for my friend.  She tried to look at it from the old guy's perspective.  Maybe he is acting like an a$$hole, but not meaning to.  In his eyes it's a chance to relive the part of his life when he could pick up and take off for a couple weeks of riding.  He feels like the shop owner screwed him over and he's trying (though having limited means) to pay me something for my time although he is not legally obligated to.  It could be much worse.

I'm still planning on making sure he has the money before I fire her up.  The bike will be in the garage with plenty of stuff in the way so it can't be removed until I have cash in hand, but I'm not going to fight it any longer.  The wife even said "Next time we'll just make sure you have the title BEFORE you work on the bike at all.  That way you don't get attached."  

She may not understand why I get attached, but she accepts that I do.  I think it's one of the reasons she loves me.  Don't know what the others are.

Thank you all for the responses and understanding why I feel like I do.  It has helped me greatly with processing the situation.  I'm just hoping to be strong enough not to go off on him as soon as I have the money.  Part of me is hoping he sees the bike and the little things still to be fixed (like missing a starter button and a blown out headlight) and decides that it's in better hands but I'm not holding my breath.