Author Topic: Ultimate motor (Read 32365 times)

sparty · « **Reply #50 on:** April 03, 2008, 01:08:56 pm »

Quote from: lordmoonpie on April 03, 2008, 12:13:51 pm

Well it's not ceramic coating - what's on your piston skirts Sparty?

PC-9™ Solid Film Lubricant from Swain Tech

Sparty

MRieck · « **Reply #51 on:** April 03, 2008, 02:44:23 pm »

Casidium coating? Also known as DLC (Diamond Like Coating)

MRieck · « **Reply #52 on:** April 03, 2008, 02:46:47 pm »

Pic of my modified 5mm guide for the Lord of CB's

Sam Green Racing · « **Reply #53 on:** April 03, 2008, 03:00:49 pm »

pal,

What valves are in yours Simon? We have Nucleus guides with Kibblewhite 5mm stemmed valves.

Sam.

Terry in Australia · « **Reply #54 on:** April 03, 2008, 07:16:39 pm »

Quote from: SamCR750 on April 02, 2008, 04:21:19 pm

Post 5 paragraph 5, read the bloody thread you silly old fart

Sam.

Grumpy old prick.............................

Sam Green Racing · « **Reply #55 on:** April 03, 2008, 07:42:09 pm »

It's with having to work all night Terry

Sam.

754 · « **Reply #56 on:** April 03, 2008, 08:05:43 pm »

nitrided pins..?

Terry in Australia · « **Reply #57 on:** April 03, 2008, 11:18:42 pm »

Quote from: SamCR750 on April 03, 2008, 07:42:09 pm

It's with having to work all night Terry

Sam.

Well what are you doing working anyway mate? When I'm your age the only work I wanna be doing is putting my helmet on and wheeling my bike outta the garage............. No wonder you're such a grumpy old git!

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #58 on:** April 04, 2008, 01:02:30 am »

Yeyyyyy! Ten points to Mike! Diamond Like coating it is....very slippery stuff but the bit that appealed to me and the wallet was that the pins will apparently last the life of the engine. Whether that means that the stuff flakes off and clogs the oil filter so guaranteeing that your engine lasts no more than a day is another matter.

Bit like the watch on Monty Python with the lifetime guarantee - when the mainspring goes, it cuts through the case and slashes your wrist!

Ah yes - Sam, I've got the same stuff as you by the sound of it, nucleus guides and Kibblewhite 5mm top end kit....ooooh! Wonder if that means I could be looking at over 80 bhp too?! Now there's a thought...

Terry in Australia · « **Reply #59 on:** April 04, 2008, 01:41:07 am »

Geez, you'd be pisssed if you didn't get 80 BHP out of that engine.....................

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #60 on:** April 04, 2008, 03:00:11 am »

I'll be happy with 80 ish bhp to start with - that way I know it'll run without going >BANG<!

Terry in Australia · « **Reply #61 on:** April 04, 2008, 03:16:26 am »

Ha ha, well I wouldn't worry too much about that mate, it looks pretty "bullet-proof" to me!

754 · « **Reply #62 on:** April 06, 2008, 11:07:37 am »

so do you think these Hyvo chains are a recent thing, like 60s or 70s..or 50s/

I am sticking with the roller stuff..

Terry in Australia · « **Reply #63 on:** April 06, 2008, 02:02:05 pm »

For your 836 engine Frank, roller chains are more than enough, but if you're using a CB900F or 1100F crank to stroke your engine and you're gonna use anywhere between 67 and 73mm pistons for anything up to 1200cc's, the hi-vo chains are just added insurance.

They might not be as efficient as a roller chain (i.e., lighter) but no-one can argue that a roller chain is stronger, and I've got the remains of a CB750 head from an engine that broke a cam chain (something not too uncommon back in the day) and it is scary to look at. Cheers, Terry.

754 · « **Reply #64 on:** April 06, 2008, 02:23:45 pm »

My next engine will be 970 or 1000cc.

however given the way things are going I may have to throw together an 836 again..

but I am fine with chains running in oil..

I did have a dohc 750 bottom end, maybe barrels but I gave it to 1080.. so there it sits.. (if he were in a sinking lifeboat beside the Titanic, and he knew a pump would bail it out.. and you offered to trade him the pump for bike parts you would still not be able to make a deal)

I am just not seeing any merits in all that work, look at all the Suzuki & Kawi dragbikes running chain.. I dont doubt that the chains can & have failed.. but the chances are slim.

Anything can break..

azuredesign · « **Reply #65 on:** April 06, 2008, 02:54:44 pm »

Beautiful, thanks for the photos and ideas!

Best,
Ben

MRieck · « **Reply #66 on:** April 06, 2008, 03:18:28 pm »

Quote from: 754 on April 06, 2008, 02:23:45 pm

My next engine will be 970 or 1000cc.

however given the way things are going I may have to throw together an 836 again..

but I am fine with chains running in oil..

I did have a dohc 750 bottom end, maybe barrels but I gave it to 1080.. so there it sits.. (if he were in a sinking lifeboat beside the Titanic, and he knew a pump would bail it out.. and you offered to trade him the pump for bike parts you would still not be able to make a deal)

I am just not seeing any merits in all that work, look at all the Suzuki & Kawi dragbikes running chain.. I dont doubt that the chains can & have failed.. but the chances are slim.

Anything can break..
[/quote

754
The Hyvo chain for the primary really can't be argued with....unless you used CR primary chains. The tensioner set up is up for grabs. Why do you have to be so negative? As a side note.....I've heard a lot of talk from you but aside from a couple of pics from a burnout....though I didn't see you start it....I don't have anything to gauge your work by. I'm not starting #$%* but.....you got better solutions??? I agree 100% with a roller cam chain and I said it early in this post....explain the primary chain stuff. Maybe I'm missing your point?
Mike

754 · « **Reply #67 on:** April 06, 2008, 03:47:25 pm »

I am just not seeing the problem that needs a solution. Never used CR chains. I have a few sets laying around, I will just pick a set with the least wear.

I dont see where I am being negative?

I am all for people experimenting and moving things ahead, that is how bikes get faster. If you want to change things to increase reliability, that is great.

A few chain failures in millions of hours does not cause me any worry, back in the 70,s when they were actively raced even on fuel it did not seem to be an issue.

I merely stated that I was not concerned with changing from roller. Idid ask though if anyone thought it was a newer technology.. (which it is clearly not).

So I will put it out there perhaps I missed it, howmany primary and cam chain failures have anyone heard of?

Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er · « **Reply #68 on:** April 06, 2008, 04:52:41 pm »

What the subject states is Ultimate Motor. We all have done more than stock. This is all about experimenting and taking it a step farther to the next level. All because we love these old bikes. Plain and simple. I think this is all pretty cool and very interesting. This is farther than I have seen or seen on this site. It's great that we all share our successes and failures. This is the best way to learn. "Thanks guys" and keep up the good work. Thats all that I need to say.

Terry in Australia · « **Reply #69 on:** April 06, 2008, 05:04:29 pm »

Well I've "heard" of primaries letting go, but have never seen it, (I've heard plenty of stretched ones rattling though........) but from hanging out in my cousin's shop when he ran a Suzuki dealership I saw, first hand, plenty of broken cam chains, although mostly on Honda's.

CB750's were very popular in my town when I was a kid, there were only a couple of Z1's around, and virtually no GS bikes until after I left to join the army, so by the 1980's there were a lot of dead CB750 engines laying around, either from camchain failure, or just as commonly, oil starvation to the head. Not many big Kawasaki's or Suzuki's suffered the same fate, hence their "bullet-proof" reputation.

For me, if I was gonna build a big cube engine, a later CB1100F crank would be the go, and I certainly wouldn't bother to convert it back to a roller cam chain, even if it was possible. Cheers, Terry.

754 · « **Reply #70 on:** April 06, 2008, 05:09:47 pm »

Yes it would be hard to change the sprocket on the crankshaft.

voxonda · « **Reply #71 on:** April 07, 2008, 03:59:42 am »

Just like Aretha said: "R-E-S-P-E-C-T" !!!!!!!!!

Cheers, Rob

MRieck · « **Reply #72 on:** April 07, 2008, 05:21:34 am »

Maybe negative wasn't the word to use but what options are available for a stronger driveline?? You ain't gonna make it a gear driven primary system. I believe almost all the vintage racing CB's run that HyVo chain set up....that's why the A cranks are hard to find. I'm a big fan of roller chains especially for the cam but they do run looser and whip around a lot. Plus having multiple roller chains always have different amounts of slack....I've seen that quite often. A straight cut gear would be my first choice for the primary drive followed by an angle gear. Next would be the HyVo and last would be the roller. If you are putting out the stock CB 40HP you can probably get by with rubber bands but if you are constantly revving the crap out of it with over 100% increase in HP and torque I think the HyVo is a better set up. Maybe I'm wrong but if that's the case so are guys like McGrew etc.

lordmoonpie · « **Reply #73 on:** April 07, 2008, 06:24:49 am »

+1 to that Mike...

I started out on the hy-vo road because I wanted a high horsepower motor for racing, ideally in the 80s but secretly I'd liek to break 90bhp. With a lightened valve train, crank, rods and pistons, the expectation is higher revs and more importantly where the chains are concerned, higher revs and lightened components means higher rev differentials more often under race situations - i.e. going from high to low revs and back again more quickly introduces more stresses in the overall system. Would I do this modification on a CB750 I was using on the road? Absolutely not.

The view from Mark McGrew is that the primary modification is essential although he stops at the A crank with a flat roller camchain and slipper tensioner - presumably advances in chain manufacturing mean it's less of an achilles heel compared to the Daytona bikes (Weren't they all camchain fails except for Dick Mann?). Also here in the UK, the two CR750 experts worth listening to(IMHO), Pete Rhodes and Bernie Saunders both advocate the primary chain modification. It's not so much a case of if you don't do it it'll fail in race situations but more if it does fail, and you have all those other expensive components in the engine, it's going to be cheaper in the long run to do a little conversion at the outset and this isn't a difficult thing to do.

The hy-vo camchain I accept I have done simply because Pete Rhodes said it *should* be possible but he didn't know if it had been done. I'm a total sucker for a challenge so I set out to fit the hy-vo camchain too and use the DOHC crank. It creates hellish problems with tensioners and the head clearances and I'm the first to admit that I'm not far enough through the project overall to run the engine and see if it works, BUT, it's different, it's been a challenge, it's been rather exciting (sadly!!) to overcome the obstacles at each turn and it's really good fun to be trying something a bit new.

Everyone has their own view of the world and I can see that some people will look at what I've done and think "what a waste of time and money" and that's OK, that's just their view based on their values and beliefs, I don't see it as negative, just different and life would be very dull if we all thought the same

voxonda · « **Reply #74 on:** April 07, 2008, 06:33:15 am »

Hi there,

I agree with MRieck about the straight gears and so is/was RSC, looking at the primairy of the famous RCB's, a shame that Honda did not put that into the 750/900/1100's. Probably something to do with production costs. I think that the main problem, with not so highly tuned engines, is not so much in the chains but in the construction of the tensioner. Who believes in a single tensioner for a double chain setup???

Due to the differs in slack within a few miles the rattle appears, the chain will only follow the one with the least slack. Am now making a double tensioner, and see what that will bring.

Cheers, Rob

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Author Topic: Ultimate motor (Read 32365 times)