Author Topic: Steering Bearings?  (Read 5781 times)

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kurtanton

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Steering Bearings?
« on: August 14, 2005, 06:25:35 PM »
Hi,

So, I took apart the front end of the 73 cb350F, there was a loose ball bearing setup going on in there, is that normal? How many should be in there, what size are the replacements, OR should I put in what Dennis Kirk's site says should be in there? Steering Stem Bearing Dennis Kirk Part Number: 121431. Any input would be great...

Thanks again,
-Kurt

Offline Uncle Ernie

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Re: Steering Bearings?
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2005, 06:29:15 PM »
Limited experience here, but the bearings shouldn't be packed like sardines in there.  Best bet in the long run would be to replace with tapered roller bearings, though.
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Offline kghost

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Re: Steering Bearings?
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2005, 07:18:54 PM »
I believe if memory serves there are 18 balls on each on the 750. Top and bottom. should be the same on the 350.

Tapered sure are easier.
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Offline Lumbee

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Re: Steering Bearings?
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2005, 07:42:06 PM »
how do the tapereds fit in the stock neck...does the lip that the ball bearings fit into come out, or do the tapered bearings sit in the same seat as the ball bearings?
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Offline kghost

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Re: Steering Bearings?
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2005, 07:43:16 PM »
You have to Knock out the seats in the neck and insert the new ones.
Stranger in a strange land

Offline Bodi

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Re: Steering Bearings?
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2005, 07:48:11 PM »
I think there's 18 on top and 19 on bottom... It has 37 balls total (PN 96211-08000) and so there has to be one more on one end; the bottom carries the weight so it makes sense to have the extra one there but I just count them on disassembly and try to put them back the same way.
The tapered roller bearing is a great replacement but it's not a particularly easy job. If the stock races are good (they look nice and smooth after washing the gunk off) I would repack them with good grease and reassemble the stem.The balls (if you have all 37) are not usually a problem, the races get "bumpy" from a combination of age/abuse/lack of servicing.

mkarcz

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Re: Steering Bearings?
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2005, 05:28:02 AM »
I replaced my '75 550 bearings with tapered bearings.  It was work, but they are smooth.  The old bearings had 18 balls on top and 19 on the bottom.  The whole thing was shot, the races were mountains and valleys.

Tapered are much nicer, but don't look the same.  There are three pieces: the cup that goes into the steering head; the tapered bearings which are a bunch of little metal bars held together with a clip; and the race which closes the system.

To get the old ones out you have to punch out the cups on the bottom and the top of the steering head.  A long solid crewdriver and hammer is what I used, but a piece of pipe is probabaly smarter.  KEEP your old parts, pray they don't break coming out, as they can shatter when hamering on them, this didn't happen to me but I read other kids had that problem.

Before you put the new cups measure how deep the cups will sit in the frame.  They fit tight and I found it reassuring to know how deep the cup will sit and how much should stick out or how far it should be recessed.  To install I needed to freeze the cups and I took the old cups and placed them over the new ones so I had something to hammer on (why you want to save parts) and carefully hammered the new ones in.  You need to hammer around in a star or circle kind of pattern because it is a super super tight fit and can go slowly.  I have read some people have heated up the frame to get that to expand, but I didn't have to do this and I don't have advice for that.  The rest goes back together fairly smoothly.
Hope that helps.
mark

Offline enforcer

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Re: Steering Bearings?
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2005, 08:19:29 AM »
Do the tapered steering stem bearings need to be packed with grease?  I assume that they do, but the directions on the box don't say anything about packing them.

Offline scott_cb650

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Re: Steering Bearings?
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2005, 08:45:13 AM »
If you're not replacing these bearings, what is the proper maintenance?
I don't see any grease fittings so do you have to take the whole thing apart and re-grease the bearings?

Thanks.
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Offline dusterdude

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Re: Steering Bearings?
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2005, 09:14:17 AM »
yes,you need to pack the new bearings and yes you need to re-pack if the need arises
mark
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Offline paulages

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Re: Steering Bearings?
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2005, 05:24:57 PM »
i heated my head and froze the bearings when replacing with tapered bearings and it worked wonderfully. i even made a headset press out of allthread, some washers, the old bearing races, and some nuts, and ended not even needing it, they went in so easy!

it was a bit harder pressing the inner bearing race onto the bottom of the steering stem without crushing the dust seal/washer and pushing the seal out of round (don't ask how i know that's possible), but was still done easily with a pipe and deadblow hammer. BTW servicehonda still sells that washer and dustseal (i said don't ask...!). i think it was easier than coldpacking the loose bearings onto the races and hoping they don't fall off while you're putting the stem back in.

good luck!
paul
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kmenzel

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Re: Steering Bearings?
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2005, 05:28:08 PM »
I tried to push the bearing onto the stem andmanaged to destroy it.  i took it to a local motorycle shop for the next one, and they did it for 20 bucks.  I would tell you to do the same thing.


BMT213A

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Re: Steering Bearings?
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2005, 05:35:41 PM »
So what is the concenus on handling improvements with new  bearings?

I have a definite notch  on the current stock bearings on my 750F  and plan to go the tappered route this winter.

Paul
750F, 400F
Old SOHC4#97

cd811

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Re: Steering Bearings?
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2005, 06:43:31 PM »
personally I think the tapered bearing are a great improvement on handling and feel! ;)

Offline Steve F

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Re: Steering Bearings?
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2005, 07:47:05 PM »
I think there's 18 on top and 19 on bottom... It has 37 balls total (PN 96211-08000) and so there has to be one more on one end; the bottom carries the weight so it makes sense to have the extra one there but I just count them on disassembly and try to put them back the same way.
The tapered roller bearing is a great replacement but it's not a particularly easy job. If the stock races are good (they look nice and smooth after washing the gunk off) I would repack them with good grease and reassemble the stem.The balls (if you have all 37) are not usually a problem, the races get "bumpy" from a combination of age/abuse/lack of servicing.
On the 750, there are a different number of balls top to bottom. Reason being, there are TWO different sizes.  Can't remember which is which, but you also have different corresponding races on the top than the bottom because of the different ball diameters.  Check with Honda regarding which size goes where.  This may not pertain to the 350, but just in case....

Teach

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Re: Steering Bearings?
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2005, 06:49:30 AM »
I replaced all of the ball bearings in the steering head of my 78 CB750F a few weeks ago.  37 in all, 18 top, 19 bottom, all of them were 1/4 inch bearings (mic'ed them to be sure).  I got mine at a hardware store.  May eventually step up to the tapered bearings, but we'll see.

Offline ofreen

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Re: Steering Bearings?
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2005, 04:07:59 PM »
So what is the concenus on handling improvements with new  bearings?

I have a definite notch  on the current stock bearings on my 750F  and plan to go the tappered route this winter.

Paul
750F, 400F
Old SOHC4#97

I put tapered steering head bearings in the 750 many years ago.  At the time, I lived at the end of a particularly washboardy 1 mile long gravel road.  The old round bearings would frequently get out of adjustment and before long became rough.  The tapered bearings solved the problem, staying in adjustment.  According to my records, they have now been in there for over 65,000 miles and are still fine.  I grease them every few years when it occurs to me to do it.

Greg
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Offline gregk

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Re: Steering Bearings?
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2006, 11:01:05 AM »


I am in the process of replacing the steering stem on my 76 750 F1.  The PO had dropped the bike and broken off one of the cast stops on the stem. 
So i might as well get the new steering stem powder coated as well.  The next step according to some of the posts is to replace the balls with tapered bearings. 
The available kits indicate that there is a spacer required on the lower bearing.  Some posts indicate that this is not required for certain years and models. 

Anyone know if the spacer is required for the F1?

Greg
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Offline mikeb4

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Re: Steering Bearings?
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2006, 08:13:16 PM »
I tried to push the bearing onto the stem andmanaged to destroy it.  i took it to a local motorycle shop for the next one, and they did it for 20 bucks.  I would tell you to do the same thing.



I froze the stem in my freezer and used a 20" long peice of 1" PVC pipe with a cut down the pipe lengthwise, it drove the bearing right onto the stem easily putting pressure only on the bearing base.  The cut allows the PVC to expand as needed to keep driving the bearing down since the stem expands towards the base, but stills maintains enough even pressure for a good installation.  ;)
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Offline seaweb11

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Re: Steering Bearings?
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2006, 08:45:30 PM »
Nice tip on the spit PVC Mike. I will give er a try on the new CL350 bearings I need to get in this week.
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Offline Leino

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Re: Steering Bearings?
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2006, 10:02:58 PM »
I'm a bit confused here.No offence, but some of you guys make it sound like replacing those bearings is difficult.
Done it at least a dozen times to different bikes, it's a walk in the park.
No special tools needed or anything.
Just a thought, peace.

Zane

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Re: Steering Bearings?
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2006, 10:29:32 PM »
I installed tapered roller bearings in my steering head about 6 weeks ago.

My new bearings came in two pieces for each of the top and bottom – the race and the rollers (total or four pieces).  There was also a big fat old washer (which I found intimidating and confusing, at first.)  My Chilton manual was helpful, and to some extent so were the instructions on the box the new bearings came in.

I was careful taking out the old ball bearings and races  because someone in a discussion on this site suggested that was a smart thing to do (because you might find them really helpful putting in the new ones). As it turned out I didn’t need them, but during the process of putting in the new ones I could see where having them could be a lifesaver…..

I guess I sort of did it the way Paul describes.  I had two steel disks the same (two) sizes as the races – top and bottom.  Each disk had a 3/8 inch hole in the centre for a threaded rod.  The rod was long enough to extend a few inches beyond the frame steering head on both top and bottom.  I slipped the rod through the steering head and held it there while I slid everything onto the rod in the right order.  Then I put on the steel disks followed by good, thick washers, and 3/8 nuts.  I tightened the nuts until everything was finger tight, checked the alignment carefully, and then I slowly and carefully tightened the nuts until everything was seated tightly against the steel stops inside the head.  After that, when I loosened off the threading, the bearing packs fall (or lift) right out.  (The way my new bearings were made, I could see where it is possible to make the mistake of mixing up the parts - make sure the smaller bearing pack goes in the smaller race.)

Then I threaded the rollers and the bottom washers on the steering stem, and passed it through the head until I could catch the appropriate thread at the top with the steering top head thread.  (How much of that threading comes out past the top bearing is the determining factor in whether or not to use the (dreaded) washer that came with the roller bearings.  I guess the roller bearings I purchased are a little thinner than the original, three piece bearing set(s) they replace, so to get the stem positioned properly for the top threading (which is a two tiered arrangement) some bikes need the extra spacer. I wouldn’t trust anyone but myself or a licensed Honda mechanic to tell me whether or not I need that washer.  I didn’t know, but it’s actually pretty easy to figure out once you have the new races installed.

A few last things (I hear a big sigh of relief right through my computer) –

I tried freezing the bearings.  I’m pretty certain the installation process took me far more time than it took the bearings to expand back to normal.  I like the idea though.

Before I did anything, I put a grease fitting on the frame head.  I’ll probably be too old to ride by the time it comes in handy, but I did it anyway.  If you decide to do the same thing, please be careful about where you put the thing.  The mistake I almost made (too close for my comfort) was to put it in a spot where it would interfere with the 6 pin main ignition key plug (which turns across the head with the steering).  I was all proud of myself for figuring out how to put in a grease fitting and felt pretty stupid a few days later when I started putting the front end back together and it looked like it was in the way (and not many spots on that steering head would be in the way.)  I lucked out though, and it cleared by a few mm’s.  Yeesh!  Talk about pride before the fall.....

I thoroughly cleaned the head stock, gave the place(s) where the bearings sit an emery cloth once over, and I put a super thin coat of grease on the steel, just where the bearings fit, before I tightened the threaded rod.

I don’t know, I hope you can find some of this useful.  I’ve got a bit more to say, but I’ll do it in another post.

All the best…..




Zane

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Re: Steering Bearings?
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2006, 10:30:44 PM »

Zane

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Re: Steering Bearings?
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2006, 10:35:42 PM »
My balls are both the same size (top and bottom).  (37 #8’s, it says in the parts list.)

However, I guess like a lot of these Hondas from the seventies, the 400F uses 19 on the bottom and 18 on the top because the diameter of the place it fits into on the bottom is slightly greater than the diameter of the place the bearing fits into, on the top.

There is no doubt in my mind that the tapered bearings are they way to go.   If I could only spend 50 bones on my bike, I would replace the ball bearings with tapered bearings.  I didn't have to think about it very hard to imagine how the vast majority of the stress in that mechanism ends up being taken by two to four of the ball bearings (the back one or two on the top, and the front one or two on the bottom).   It’s just a guess, but I reckon the ball bearings were largely a cost thing when Honda made my bike.

Regardless, it just seems as if tapered, roller bearings make so much more sense – the stress on the steering head is distributed much more evenly, and over a far larger contact surface.

I replaced mine just before Christmas, and although it seemed to feel a lot better, I couldn’t really tell because I’m limited to zipping around in the underground parking (where I live).  Today though, I managed to get out for some above ground riding (on real roads) and I’ll tell you where I noticed the difference.  The expressway across the bottom of Toronto is elevated, and there are expansion couplings every few hundred yards (over a distance of 3 or 4 miles).  These vary in roughness from not too bad to really quite a bump.  Even though I haven’t ridden for a few months (that pesky snow) I could immediately sense the better control I had of my machine the instant after passing over an expansion joint.  With the ball bearings it was okay too, but it was definitely not as positive as it was today, with my newly installed roller bearings.  I was clipping along between 120 and 140 k, and there was no slop, however minute, at any time.  They were tight and I had a better sense of control through any rough spots.  With the ball bearings, if I hit a rough patch at the same speed there was always a microsecond or two where the steering simply was not as tight as it is now.

Once I learn how to go around corners fast, I expect it will make a difference there too – it’s just I won’t be able to tell (since I don’t really know how to corner very well yet.)  I’ll bet I learn quicker though, with these rollers holding the steel with a few thousand percent more contact area.



Offline pae

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Re: Steering Bearings?
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2006, 01:03:51 AM »
I'm about to have a go at this (well, I've got the outer cups out of the frame already with no trouble) but I can't see much guidance about how to get the lower cone off the stem. I can see the statment in the uploaded instructions from Zane, but is it really that simple to get the lower cone off? The double lipped seal and washer are below the cone, but I can't picture levering against the washer as it looks too thin to take much abuse. Do you get a lever in where the seal is? Pic of mine below - any tips greatly appreciated,

regards, Phil

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