Author Topic: My XS650 is trying to hurt me...  (Read 9964 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline SClay115

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 224
My XS650 is trying to hurt me...
« on: May 24, 2008, 06:40:55 PM »
..long story short, as there will be a neat build thread later on in it's life. But trying to get this XS I bought started before tear down, and well. It's not going well. Gentleman I bought it from had troubles with it himself, which is why it's in my possession. So, here we are, we have spark, we have fuel(almost brand new VM34 Mikunis), we have air, and! We have compression. So much so that the machine backfired whilst me kickstarting it, and literally, and I mean this in complete truth, put a hole in the sole of my shoe. Yup, it felt nice. So, here it is, play by play of what is happening.

So few things going on, first, battery is way flat(6v) eek! So put her on the charger, charger says it is good to go? That's odd. The charger, depending if the bike's key is on or off, says the battery is 'charging' or 'charged'. The only time it says it is charging is with the ignition on. No idea why. Thoughts? I have it now sitting overnight on the charger, maybe tomorrow a nice 12v reading will appear, even though the charger thinks it is already there. Maybe the charger is toast, but I doubt it.

Next thing, this one is fun. There is this relay, I believe it is the 'starter lock out relay'. On the right side of the frame, there are three relays, it is the top one. Apparently, if it trips shut, the entire bike's electrical system is shut down. I have no idea why, it just is happening. Maybe someone has run into it before. So how does it trip shut? Lots of fun ways, using the starter too much, hitting the brake lights too many times, just seems like any excessive electrical load and donk, no power, no lights, no nothing, battery reads 0v too. Battery leads are good, good ground, everything is a-ok on that end.

Lastly, the 'hurt' part. So I'm attempting to kick-start this baby, key in, ignition on, verify we are getting spark, ok, plugs back in. Big kick, I think to myself, man this is a way harder kick than my CB350! Again, again, nothing, not even an attempt, and then, kick, backfire out the intake, kickstart lever shoots back up, throwing me back and sending a hefty shock through my foot/leg, feels awesome let me tell you. So I think, timing has to be screwy, pull the cover, set it at TDC, yup, piston is there, valves closed, roll around the area, spark plug is firing at the right time. So, we have the four elements(spark/fuel/air/compression) Why, oh why, will you not start, and why do  you hurt me so? Coincidently, when she backfires out the intake, that is also when that relay trips, shutting down the electrical system.

Few plans of attack, new harness, scratch built, bare essentials, just enough to get her running, similar to my CB setup. Find resources online for people having the same problem(not many it seems). Return machine to stock, carbs, airbox, etc, and see where I can go from there.

Sorry for the long post, just get to typing, and well, here we are. I appreciate any help you folks can offer me. Ultimately this engine may be getting torn down for a refresh, but as mentioned, I want to get it running before I do...

Steve

Offline Hush

  • Finally they realise that I am an
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,761
  • "Lady, I've heard it all before"!
Re: My XS650 is trying to hurt me...
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2008, 06:48:49 PM »
Is this a Yamaha xs650 you are working on?
I'd check your timing again, sounds like valves are closing as spark ignites, tends to throw you across the shed.
If it was a SOHC Honda I would suggest that you have timed the spark on the "T" mark on the crank instead of the "F" mark.
Oh yeah I can't get mine to go either so best you wait for a real expert to arrive....increase medicare insurance in meantime.
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline SClay115

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 224
Re: My XS650 is trying to hurt me...
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2008, 06:51:23 PM »
Is this a Yamaha xs650 you are working on?
I'd check your timing again, sounds like valves are closing as spark ignites, tends to throw you across the shed.
If it was a SOHC Honda I would suggest that you have timed the spark on the "T" mark on the crank instead of the "F" mark.
Oh yeah I can't get mine to go either so best you wait for a real expert to arrive....increase medicare insurance in meantime.

Yup, XS650. Yea see I didn't rebuild this one, it looks like someone did, which scares me, but hey, at least I can't take the blame for it right! And yes, I now and trying to start it in a padded room, much safer that way.  :D

Steve

Offline SClay115

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 224
Re: My XS650 is trying to hurt me...
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2008, 07:14:14 AM »
Just kidding, rode her around this morning.  :D

Steve

Offline pdxPope

  • Hit Shit, Hat Shat, Hut Shut,
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 490
Re: My XS650 is trying to hurt me...
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2008, 07:23:39 AM »
Well, I'm certianly NOT an XS650 expert, but I have had a couple of them, so here goes....

The battery is dead. I had a very tired battery in my CB500 that would do the exact same thing (appear charged according to the battery charger) but it didn't have enough juice to electrocute a hamster. You might check the water level and /or try charging it completely out of the frame, but my guess is that it's toast.

I also would surmise that you have a short somewhere in the wiring.
Not sure what year you have, so diagnosing the relays is a little tricky. I know in the later bikes there was a clutch lock out relay- wherin the clutch lever had to be pulled to start it. But that wouldn't kill the entire electrical system....

Assuming that you have a shop manual (at least a Clymers) I would also suggest re-checking the timing. You say that you have spark at the right time, but are you sure it's the compression stroke, not the exhaust stroke? Sound's stupid, I know, but it is possible (ask me how I know that....)

Luckiny there is as good a resource for these bikes as for the SOHC!!!!
Check out MikesXS.com and the 650 garage and therein you will find all the answers you seek.

-JP


You give indication that the bike has had several owners who may have tried to 'fix' problems in the past- yikes! That is never good.
The flowers say "Let's go shopping together..."
While the unicorn whispers "...for adult toys."

Offline pdxPope

  • Hit Shit, Hat Shat, Hut Shut,
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 490
Re: My XS650 is trying to hurt me...
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2008, 07:37:58 AM »
Quote
Just kidding, rode her around this morning. 


Ahhh, you cheeky monkey. :D


-JP

The flowers say "Let's go shopping together..."
While the unicorn whispers "...for adult toys."

Offline SClay115

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 224
Re: My XS650 is trying to hurt me...
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2008, 08:31:44 AM »
Yea, battery was totally flat, left it on the charger all night, came out to a lovely 11.5 volts. Kick once, kick twice, blam, fired right up. Sweet! Sounds awesome too!

Steve

Offline Klark Kent

  • You are in serious trouble if you think I'm an
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,463
  • Our Lady of Blessed Acceleration don't fail me now
Re: My XS650 is trying to hurt me...
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2008, 08:38:25 AM »
kickstarter kickback is apparently caused by advanced timing?  IIRC from a thread I read here recently.  glad you got er running,
-KK

75 CB550k
76 Moto Guzzi 850T-3FB LAPD- sold
95 KLR650
www.blindpilotmovie.com

download the shop manual:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=17788.0
you'll feel better.

listen to your spark plugs:
http://www.4secondsflat.com/Spark_plug_reading.html

Offline mrblasty

  • Expertly
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,336
  • I can bunny hop my 750 #$%*es
Re: My XS650 is trying to hurt me...
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2008, 01:19:13 PM »
kickstarter kickback is apparently caused by advanced timing?  IIRC from a thread I read here recently.  glad you got er running,

I had the same happening to me on my 750 after I swapped motors, I looked at my advancer weights and they were rusted tight,  swapped everything out with a good set and no more kick back.
I farted and made my son cry.
1973 Honda CB 750
1975 GL 1000
1975 Yamaha XS650 The Swamp Donkey

Offline SClay115

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 224
Re: My XS650 is trying to hurt me...
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2008, 02:02:57 PM »
Well after I got the thing charged up and have rode it a few times, there is very little kickback. You just really, really have to kick it, and all the way through too. The 350 I swear starts if you breathe on the kickstarter the wrong way. But this 650, for obvious reasons, you just really have to kick it. Now I can appreciate the older Harleys with kick only, I couldn't imagine kicking one of those...

Steve

Offline SClay115

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 224
Re: My XS650 is trying to hurt me...
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2008, 06:33:52 AM »
Alright little update. She runs pretty good now. However, it will still get the occasional kick-back, and is a little hard to start. I have a set of CB350 plugs in there for the moment(only fresh ones I had). And am thinking that might be a little bit of a problem. It's electronic ignition, so the advance and timing is fixed, so that's why I'm thinking plugs. Anybody have any thoughts on it? It will usually only do it after I attempt to kick it more than once. It'll start on the first kick, just gotta be real careful with getting her going. But if you kick and kick, it will eventually try to rip you leg off. Very un-awesome.  :D

Steve

Offline pdxPope

  • Hit Shit, Hat Shat, Hut Shut,
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 490
Re: My XS650 is trying to hurt me...
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2008, 05:51:37 PM »
How are the valves?

Are you using the choke?

Is the engine warm or cold?

If the bike is cold use full choke; if it's warm use 1/2 choke; if it's hot don't use any.
Keep your hand off the throttle for all 3 options!!

Oh, and scrounge up $4 and put the correct plugs in.  ::)


So how do you like that low end grunt?

-Jp
The flowers say "Let's go shopping together..."
While the unicorn whispers "...for adult toys."

Offline SClay115

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 224
Re: My XS650 is trying to hurt me...
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2008, 05:40:07 AM »
Using the choke yes, only when cold. I ended up getting the correct plugs, ordered a lot of stuff from MikesXS and just had some plugs put on the list. So here I am, thing all refreshed, everything correct.

And now, to make matters worse, it will not start at all now. Don't know why. Getting spark, sure as hell getting fuel, and I have compression. Weird thing is, it was running great yesterday, and now, nothing. I worked with it for a while last night, was getting aggravated, and figured it'd be best to just start again tonight when I get home from work, fresh look on things you know.

The part that bothers me is that it really was running/starting so well just yesterday. Full choke, two kicker, dead cold, fired right up. Ran AWESOME, and yes, the low end grunt is in a word, awesome. Compared to the 350 it's like riding a steam locomotive with handlebars. So here are the parts I installed last night, maybe you guys can offer some insight.

New throttle cable for the 34mm Mikunis
New bars("Euro")
New grips
New turn signals
New plugs(Iridium, per MikesXS)
New front pads
Rebuilt master cylinder
Flushed system

Not sure which one of those things is causing it not to start, but I'm assuming it is one of them. What do you guys think?

Steve

Wingmonk

  • Guest
Re: My XS650 is trying to hurt me...
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2008, 02:36:32 AM »
I ride the 79 XS Special 2f and was wondering what year yours was? I wore out a 76 XS and I have a bit of skill with these bikes since I been riding the 79 since 1989.
I know the petcock gave some grief with the vacuum valves and the timing chain adjustment in most of the books is not real accurate. Really hope you get this running. Its really very dependable and is very well built.

Riding the 650 twin fixes my lower back, and I get this big silly grin I can't stop!

Offline SClay115

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 224
Re: My XS650 is trying to hurt me...
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2008, 04:45:41 AM »
Update, after a very long, very aggravating, and subsequently very stupid mistake on my part. I got her running. Turns out, the Mikuni round slides have well, different slides for each side! I ended up with the slides in the wrong carbs, and that is why it wasn't starting, then I was having problems with the revs not returning to idle(air screw), and now it's running well, very well in fact.

I need to get down to the jetting, as it is just jetting so far incorrectly I'm pretty impressed it's even riding(rode it into work today). But it's not bad to ride, a little buzzy it seems like, but this is the only XS I've ridden, so I have no comparison. But it's really not too bad, when it does pull(lower revs, lower gears) it is really nice, very solid feel. Cool bike thought, should make a nice daily rider. I'm just hoping my ankles recover soon from that kickstarter kick-back issue I had before....ouch..

Steve