Topic: Oil poll

[Harry]

The poll teaches us: 10-40w MINERAL oil is what Honda recommends. When these bikes were first sold, the API oil rating and formulation level was SD or SE. 20W-50 MINERAL oil can be used on older, worn motors. Don’t use synthetics. Synthetics have a reputation for a high detergent action. That is, if you have an old engine that has some sludge or deposits internally, the synthetic will sometimes remove it in chunks. There is some risk of plugging or restricting the oil pickup screen, which would starve the engine of oil. It also affects some old seals adversely causing them to leak (from shrinkage if I remember correctly) and often leads to clutch slippage (see Clutch FAQ for clutch slippage comments).

So, like, who uses what?

[Jonesy]

As I understand it, the issue with synthetic oils and seals is related to how the seals swell when in contact with oil. Conventional oils cause less seal swelling than synthetic ones. So, if you've always run a synthetic, fine. If you switch from conventional to synthetic, fine as well. If you've been running synthetic for a long time and switch to conventional, that's where you can run into trouble as the seals have swollen to a certain size and worn against the shafts they ride against. Now that they won't swell as much (in conventional oil), they ride against the respective shaft without sufficient pressure to prevent leakage.

[eldar]

I have just used havoline 10-40 in my bike and never run into issues. Occasionally it wont always shift into gear but this is sporadic and is not always the same gear and since I have not pulled the clutch since I got the bike, the plates could be a worn or dogs and forks out of adjustment.

[SteveD CB500F]

Silkolene 10W-40 for me - always have.

[ofreen]

I've used BMW 20-50 in the 750 for the last 8 or 9 years, and change it every 3 to 4 thousand miles.  Sometimes I've run 10-40 in the winter, but shifting is smoother running around town with 20-50 , especially during the heat of summer here in Idaho.

Greg
75 CB750F

[Einyodeler]

I use Shell Rotella T, it comes in synthetic and non-synthetic
 Check out this this very informative link and learn all about oil
This is your reading assignment for the day....class dismissed !!!
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

[jbailey]

Not to beat an old horse, but Harry is alittle mislead.

The reason they recommended mineral oil when these bikes were new is because synthetic oil did not exist, or at least not sold to the general public.

Synthetics have no more "detergent action" than any other detergent motor oil.

The reason the seals will (maybe) sometimes leak in older engines is due to the fact that the seals are worn due to lack of lubrication due to using mineral oil in the first place.  If you use synthetic from the start they will not leak.  If you continue to use mineral oil, they will eventually leak.  If you switch to synthetic and find it leaks, you can always switch back.  However, this overblown story about seals leaking is far from reality.  Worn seals would probably be found in vehicles with many miles on them, such as a car with 100,000+ miles on it.

Your clutch will not slip with synthetic as long as you use oil formulated for use in motorcycles with a wet clutch or can discern from the manufacturers information what additives would cause clutch slippage.  The main ingredient in modern "Car" oils that causes clutch slippage is Molybednium Disulfide or Moly for short.  It is used because it is a great high temperature lubricant.  "Motorcycle" oils will not have Moly unless it is designed for a bike with a dry clutch.  Interestingly, Honda HP4 which was formulated for Goldwings contains Moly and some people use it in there old bikes without slippage.

The main problem with newer car oils is that they have removed most of the phosphorus and zinc for emmisions purposes.  These are essential lubricants forold engines and were present in HIGH quantity in SD, SF, SG and SH oils.  The ONLY oils that are formulated like the oils back in the 1970's are those formulated for diesels such as Rotella T or Delvac.  Chevron Delo now contains Moly.

The other disadvantage of mineral oils is the use of polymers (usually called viscosity enhancers) to make the 10W base oil appear to be a 40 weight at operating temperature.  Synthetics do not thicken when cold, so a 30 weight synthetic oil appears to be a 10W when cold without the use of polymers.  A synthetic such as Rotella T 5W-40 contains very little polymers.  Gearboxes will shread polymers very quickly.  Testing has shown that a mineral 10W-40 will shear and effectively be a 10W30 after only a few hundred miles.  This shearing will continue and after 2,000 miles you will have very thin oil "lubricating" your engine.  Since synthetics contain no or little polymers, they will not shear, you will have oil with approximately the correct viscosity until your normal oil change.  This doesn't even take into account the temperature advantages of synthetic, which is that they withstand higher operating temps and dissipate heat more effectively.  What more could an air cooled engine want?

The only people I've talked with who advocate mineral oils as superior to synthetics are generally too cheap to use them, since the myths regarding synthetics have been proven wrong years ago.

I use synthetic in my bike, lawn mower, tractor, snowblower, generator, and four cars.

[kghost]

The only people I've talked with who advocate mineral oils as superior to synthetics are generally too cheap to use them, since the myths regarding synthetics have been proven wrong years ago.

Best Oil? Clean oil

[Jonesy]

Your clutch will not slip with synthetic as long as you use oil formulated for use in motorcycles with a wet clutch or can discern from the manufacturers information what additives would cause clutch slippage.  The main ingredient in modern "Car" oils that causes clutch slippage is Molybednium Disulfide or Moly for short.  It is used because it is a great high temperature lubricant.  "Motorcycle" oils will not have Moly unless it is designed for a bike with a dry clutch.  Interestingly, Honda HP4 which was formulated for Goldwings contains Moly and some people use it in there old bikes without slippage.

Then why is Honda HP-4 oil offered with Moly and without? The guy in the service depatment at the local Honda dealer said if the bike is more than a few years old, go with the non-Moly formula, since the Moly will destroy an older-type wet clutch. The Moly is specified for the newer sport bikes.

[mcpuffett]

i use 10 w 40 or 20 w 50 and change it between 1,000 to 1,500       mick.

[jbailey]

I didn't realize HP4 was available in two formulations.  Never paid much attention since it is way over-priced.  My point is that you should stay away from ANY oil with moly, and they don't tell you on the label whether the oil contains moly or not.  The only way to be sure is to use a "motorcycle" oil which specifically states it is OK for use with a wet clutch, or any other oil you are SURE does not contain Moly.  Actually I believe most of the "automotive" 10W-40 or 20W50 oils do not cotain moly at this time, but they will no doubt start using it in the future since it is inexpensive and is a great lubricant.

Since motorcycles are generally only driven a few thousand miles a year and most people change there oil regularly, you can probably use most anything.  The problems associated with lack of proper lubrication will not show up until years and many miles down the road.  I have seen enough engines torn down to know what cheap oil will do to your equipment.  If you don't care, save the dollar or two and use whatever you like.

[Jonesy]

I concur... run what you like. If the differences in the oils are really that sensitive, I think it would be a miracle any of these engines survived all these years!

In case anyone was curious, HP4 with Moly comes in a Silver bottle, while the non-Moly formula comes in a Gold bottle. There's about a $0.50 price difference between the two.

[Kelvin8]

Lest we forget, synthetics could swell seals in engines causing failures. I don't think I'd use a synthetic in anything manufacturered before '85. Right now I've got Tech 2000 (WalMart) 10W40 in the 550 (just changed it even though I don't have it running yet because I have no idea how old the stuff that was in it was). I may switch to 20W50 because I live in a warm climate, but fall is nearly upon us and temps are dropping (sort of).

[jbailey]

Can anyone find any credible evidence that synthetic oil causes seals to swell or any of the other myths propagated here?  I doubt you will find any evidence of the kind because it is not true.  I get tired of people who "heard" this and that and it must be true.  Synthetic oil will not cause leaks, swelling or anything that a good mineral oil would, and it WILL make your engine run cooler, smoother and last longer.  These are facts substantiated by years of research and developement.  Wake up and smell the oil spot and PLEASE do a little reading before repeating urban myths.

[Quail "Owner of the comfortable k8"]

Can anyone find any credible evidence that synthetic oil causes seals to swell or any of the other myths propagated here? I doubt you will find any evidence of the kind because it is not true. I get tired of people who "heard" this and that and it must be true. Synthetic oil will not cause leaks, swelling or anything that a good mineral oil would, and it WILL make your engine run cooler, smoother and last longer. These are facts substantiated by years of research and developement. Wake up and smell the oil spot and PLEASE do a little reading before repeating urban myths.

What do people think synthetic oil is made from, it comes from mineral oil.  Most new leaks are caused by old seals that failed years ago but have so much varnish from the standard oil that when the different oil is added and cleans the varnish off the failed seal reveils its true self.  This forum stinks of urban myths.  Oh by the way I have never seen a biker crash when he is wearing pink gloves while sporting a feather Boa.  Just something to think about.  Anything to keep us safe.

[dusterdude]

quail,i think i saw the pink gloved feathered boa guy a long time ago,but that was in the drug induced 70`s.hard to say if it was real or a figment of my imagination.

[boatsdickson]

Havent thought alot about it but Castrol 10w30 from everything from the honeys mustang, my pos stationwagon, and the scooter...

[333]

I used to work at a large dealer(Honda,Yamaha,Kawasaki,& Suzuki) and Honda actually had a list that showed what Honda's could use HP4.  This was when there was no "non moly " version.  They listed most all bikes as OK for HP4 use with the exception of units with a centifugal clutch (CT70, ATC...)  I have been using Moly HP4 in my 350F for years with no problems.  It also lives in my Honda outboard and lawnmower, again- no problems

One should also note that there 2 different kinds of synthetic(3 if you count blends, which HP4 is).  First there is the petroleum oil that the manufacturer has gone and messed with the molecules a little, and  then are allowed by law to call it a synthetic.  Most synthetics fall into this catagory as it is cheaper to do it this way and "synthetic" sells.  Then there are real synthetics (mineral or other synthetic base).  They typically are REAL expensive.  Motul makes both types, and you can tell the difference by looking at the price.  The last time I checked, Motuls real synthetics were about $20.00 per quart (yikes!!!).

So, how did I do on my first post?  I used to post a lot back in the listserver days, but this is my first since I've come back in the fold.

[keiths]

You did good 333. Good to know you have had no problems with HP4 in your 350f. Lets see a pic or two.
I like your user name.