Topic: Synthetic versus non-synthetic oil

[Spikeybike]

you have a pool in your bike ?  NICE

what kind of oil do you put in it ?

[goon 1492]

you have a pool in your bike ?  NICE

what kind of oil do you put in it ?

synthetic baby oil, I couldn't bring my self to using real baby oil; the little buggers poo alot and puke alot too but i just couldn't bring myself to squeezing the oil out of them for my honda pool kit I just installed I did have to install big block truck springs on the rear of the bike to hold up all the water...... even the water in my head......

[crazypj]

I used the search but due to the nature of this topic, was even more confused. And after reading almost 7 somewhat "painful" pages of varying opinions, arguments, etc., I decided to re-ask the question with the hope that there might be a more (updated) definitative answer.

The search feature works VERY well and it has answered 90% of my questions without the need to post a new one. The oil question was a different story though. In hindsight, I might have been better-off asking about politics and religion.

Thanks.   

LOL 

[BobbyR]

I am thinking of filling mine with KY or Astroglide, probably get another 10Hp. 

[Spikeybike]

i love oil threads...
they are always a mix of usefull opinions, and smartass comments  usually more of the latter..

on with the show 

[bunghole]

I don't run oil in my bikes.  I've read too many comments on why particular types of oils are bad that I figured they must all be bad.  So I just run 'em dry.  If they get too hot, I put some water in them.

[Johnie]

I know no one cares... but I only use regular oil in my old bikes....
Just cause, you know, that's what they had back when dinosaurs ruled the earth. Good enough for cavemen and their motorcycles, good enough for me :/

I agree with mlinder...I have used Pennzoil 10w40 in all my old bikes and muscle cars since 1970.  Never had a clutch issue or problem.  I stick with it as that is what they used then, that is what I used then, that is what I use now.  Even though the oil is different now than back then, the performance is good.  No worries...be happy.     Oh, and I do not mind these oil threads at all.

[TwoTired]

...I have used Pennzoil 10w40 in all my old bikes and muscle cars since 1970.  Never had a clutch issue or problem.  I stick with it as that is what they used then, that is what I used then, that is what I use now.  No worries...be happy.     Oh, and I do not mind these oil threads at all.

This is the EXACT problem with Brand loyalty.  The formulation the Penzoil brand offered in 1970, is NOT the same formulation they produce now.  And, it is NOT the same formulation they will offer in the future.  Honda made engines to operate on the oil formulations offered in the 70s.  It is not likely you will find 70s manufactured oil on store shelves today.  In fact, the EPA will force the manufacturers to change the formulation in ways that have NO consideration for what engines needed or expected in 1970. 

Neither the Government OR the oil companies have any vested interest in keeping your old Honda functional or long lived.  They want the economy stimulated with new vehicle sales, insurance company higher premiums, tax and registration revenue, and less polluting vehicles.  If all that is lost is a few old Hondas, you'll not convince THEM that it is a downside.

However, you are entitled to worship any religion you so chose, and I'm sure the Brand marketeers will appreciate any unpaid evangelists that wish to prosthelytize for them.

FYI.  I used Penzoil back in the 70s and 80s, Castrol, and Quaker state, too.  They were fine until the blends changed for the needs of modern automotive engines with catalytic converters.

IMO, of course.

[Johnie]

I agree TT, not the same oil in those bottles now as in the cans of the 70's.  Heck, not the same blood in my veins either.  So TT, how about telling us what brand you do worship...just for kicks.  We are anxious to know...

[WFO]

Iam a valvoline guy TILL THE END!

[Gordon]

I prefer Coppertone...

[TwoTired]

I don't worship any brand.  I favor synthetic blends intended for wet clutch motorcycles use.  Or, at least an oil that was not specified for automotive use in catalytic converters.

I have/do use Honda's HP-4.  It does have a higher evaporation rate than many oils.  I've also used Golden Spectro label.  Red line works well in motorcycles, as does Amsoil.  With all the synthetics/blends I extend the oil change interval about 1/3-1/2.

My last 750F resurrection I tried Rottella but I don't know how long I'll keep it in there.  It's going to have a short change cycle due to it sitting for 22 years.  It's only got 50 miles on the oil, so far.

Yes, the oil I use is more expensive.  It's still cheaper than engine repairs or replacement.  That's how I justify the expense.

I wouldn't be upset to use any oil labeled for motorcycle use in the correct viscosity.  I prefer to keep the entire engine contents from the same source. 

Nothing much new in this post, that you can't find in previous oil threads, btw.

[crazypj]

I'm using Rotella 5W/40 full synthetic in ALL my bikes at present.
 Its already been re-formulated so it now meets the JASO specs for wet clutch motorcycles ( unless I read forum wrong?)
PJ

[eldar]

It seems to work fine for a number of us. I put the rotella synth in a rebel and it quieted down a lot and ran better.

[ofreen]

I can't see raking a guy over the coals for starting a thread on oil or anything else.  I've been on this forum from the first, and the mailing list for years before that.  Every topic has been done over and over, whether bike related, political, or whatever.  Even a lot of the same jokes on the humor forum have been recycled.  There would be little activity on this forum if topics were never repeated.  So I say go easy on the guy.  If someone thinks a thread is redundant, I'd suggest staying away from it.  For instance, I don't respond anymore to threads about how to change a tach drive seal.

And the search function is kind of tedious.

Back on topic, that Slick 50 is great stuff.

[Gordon]

Try to keep up, Man!  The coal-raking was over-with three days ago...

[333]

This is the EXACT problem with Brand loyalty.  The formulation the Penzoil brand offered in 1970, is NOT the same formulation they produce now.  And, it is NOT the same formulation they will offer in the future.  Honda made engines to operate on the oil formulations offered in the 70s.  It is not likely you will find 70s manufactured oil on store shelves today.  In fact, the EPA will force the manufacturers to change the formulation in ways that have NO consideration for what engines needed or expected in 1970. 

Neither the Government OR the oil companies have any vested interest in keeping your old Honda functional or long lived.  They want the economy stimulated with new vehicle sales, insurance company higher premiums, tax and registration revenue, and less polluting vehicles.  If all that is lost is a few old Hondas, you'll not convince THEM that it is a downside.

However, you are entitled to worship any religion you so chose, and I'm sure the Brand marketeers will appreciate any unpaid evangelists that wish to prosthelytize for them.

FYI.  I used Penzoil back in the 70s and 80s, Castrol, and Quaker state, too.  They were fine until the blends changed for the needs of modern automotive engines with catalytic converters.

IMO, of course.

What did they know then that they don't seem to know now?  What did oils do then that they don't do now?

Oil puts a barrier between close fit, metal against metal, high friction surfaces.  Nothing has changed since the beginning of internal combustion engines as far as needs are concerned.  The difference is that oil does a better job of protection than ever before, if that is truly possible.  There are no "good ol' days" of oil.  And sure, we all used Penzoil, Castrol, and Quakerstate back in the day.  Cause that's all there was.  And when the Japanese decided to use the same oil in the transmission as used in the engine(not the same TYPE, but the SAME OIL- ONE RESERVOIR), where car manufacturers(and Harley) separate and use 90w oil in a transmission.  And that fact doesn't require the kind of scrutiny found in threads like this?  It IS a confusing issue.  It will never be answered in a single thread as long as people cling to the past because it worked for them back in the day.  Many of us in this forum own multiple bikes, so each one doesn't get much mileage each year.  And if the Penzoil is changed often enough, it'll be okay.  But some of us only have one bike.  And all the mileage on 2 wheels gets put on that one bike.  I've owned it for almost 20 years, and I expect to own it for 20 more.  You better believe I'll never scrimp on oil because "it was good enough back in the day"!

[BobbyR]

I can't see raking a guy over the coals for starting a thread on oil or anything else.  I've been on this forum from the first, and the mailing list for years before that.  Every topic has been done over and over, whether bike related, political, or whatever.  Even a lot of the same jokes on the humor forum have been recycled.  There would be little activity on this forum if topics were never repeated.  So I say go easy on the guy.  If someone thinks a thread is redundant, I'd suggest staying away from it.  For instance, I don't respond anymore to threads about how to change a tach drive seal.

And the search function is kind of tedious.

Back on topic, that Slick 50 is great stuff.

Actually my Tach seal is leaking and the new seal came in the mail today. I have read the posts and hope it is no harder than some claim it to be.

[ofreen]

Try to keep up, Man!  The coal-raking was over-with three days ago...

What can I say?  It is summer and I've been busy.

I can't see raking a guy over the coals for starting a thread on oil or anything else.  I've been on this forum from the first, and the mailing list for years before that.  Every topic has been done over and over, whether bike related, political, or whatever.  Even a lot of the same jokes on the humor forum have been recycled.  There would be little activity on this forum if topics were never repeated.  So I say go easy on the guy.  If someone thinks a thread is redundant, I'd suggest staying away from it.  For instance, I don't respond anymore to threads about how to change a tach drive seal.

And the search function is kind of tedious.

Back on topic, that Slick 50 is great stuff.

Actually my Tach seal is leaking and the new seal came in the mail today. I have read the posts and hope it is no harder than some claim it to be.

Just hook it out of there with a mechanic's pick...

Dang it, you got me.

[TwoTired]

What did they know then that they don't seem to know now?  What did oils do then that they don't do now?

They knew that lead and phosphorus additives diminished wear.
Then they found out that lead "poisoned" catalytic converters, rendering them ineffective.
Then they took out lead from the fuel.
Then they took out lead from automotive oils.
Then they started putting moly in oil to "conserve energy".
These changes are fine for autos without wet clutches and integrated transmission gears.

The owners manual for the 77 Cb750F states "motor oils intended for Service SE."   This is an API classification.  Good luck finding that on distributor shelves today!

See:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil

"Note that the API oil classification structure has eliminated specific support for wet-clutch motorcycle applications in their descriptors, and API SJ and newer oils are referred to be specific to automobile and light truck use. Accordingly, motorcycle oils are subject to their own unique standards.

The latest API service standard designation is SM for gasoline automobile and light-truck engines. The SM standard refers to a group of laboratory and engine tests, including the latest series for control of high-temperature deposits. Current API service categories include SM, SL and SJ for gasoline engines. All previous service designations are obsolete, although motorcycle oils commonly still use the SF/SG standard. The obsolete SH standard was the last standard to contain the integral zinc and phosphorus (ZDDP) levels needed for proper lubrication of approx. pre-1990 cars[citation needed]. Oils with higher ZDDP levels are still available from some manufactures, although much information is proprietary.

[333]

I never hear anybody complain about the absence of lead in our oils and gas.  If it were needed, our 30+ year old machines would be dropping like flies.  And while you occasionally hear complaints of moly ruining a clutch, nothing has been proven.  I've used the Honda moly oil since 1986 in all bikes I've owned and have NEVER had a clutch problem, NEVER replaced a clutch.  The exception is my CT70, which is not approved for that oil(centrifugal clutch).  And so what if API "has eliminated specific support for wet-clutch motorcycle applications".  Motorcyclists only only 3% of the population of the U.S..  I'm surprised they "supported" us in the first place.  My guess is that this position is because American bikes (Harley) don't need that kind of support, so who cares?

[Hush]

Knowing nothing about specialised oils for bikes and finding most of the brands mentioned on this forum are only available in the states I buy whatever is the cheapest and labelled for motorcycles ($10 a litre at Supercheap) 

[TwoTired]

I never hear anybody complain about the absence of lead in our oils and gas. 

And this proves what?  That you are deaf, or unknowledgable?   You never heard about valve seat recession and that all modern engines must have valve seat inserts instead of cast iron seats, because the lead was removed from gas?  Our Hondas were spared this issue since aluminum cylinder heads have steel inserts already.

Besides, a negative proof is no proof at all.  Go ahead, prove to us that you don't beat the wife and kids in secret.  You don't hear any complaints from people who died of poison gas inhalation either.

If it were needed, our 30+ year old machines would be dropping like flies. 

Another meaningless negative proof argument, as well as a gross exaggeration.  The lack of ZDDP in the oil is not the same as no oil at all.  Increased wear patterns are not the same as catastrophic wear patterns.  Most people don't keep bikes till the engine is worn out.  Much less two bikes where each one used a different oil and was subjected to the same running conditions. How else would they notice a 10,000, 20,000 or 40,000 mile difference in longevity?  And, if they are resurrecting a bike that is worn out, how could they attribute the problems to the wrong oil used by the previous owner(s)?  ...And then send you an email about it?

And while you occasionally hear complaints of moly ruining a clutch, nothing has been proven. 

...to your satisfaction.  Can't prove that God exists either, can you?  Can't prove that god doesn't exist either. 

I've used the Honda moly oil since 1986 in all bikes I've owned and have NEVER had a clutch problem, NEVER replaced a clutch. 

And, I HAVE replace a clutch or two that was contaminated with moly.

And so what if API "has eliminated specific support for wet-clutch motorcycle applications".  Motorcyclists only only 3% of the population of the U.S..  I'm surprised they "supported" us in the first place.  My guess is that this position is because American bikes (Harley) don't need that kind of support, so who cares?

I do.  Sorry, if I don't buy into your "guess" and wish to risk my transmission and clutch to your recommendations.  There ARE documented tests that show transmission gears benefit from zinc lubrication.  They were referenced in prior oil threads for those interested in using test data to form their opinion.

[333]

I won't bother to use the quote feature as I want to answer each point.

1.  Yea, most antique cars suffer from that.  But inserts came about long before the lead left the oil and gas.
2.  You don't think 30+year old machines are reaching that worn out time?  Most have low milage on their side, but I've had mine for 20 years and I intend to have it another 20.
3.  You can't prove he does exist either.  You're arguing with the wrong guy on that point.
4.  Did you do a proper scientific test?  Cause that's what it would take for me.  Someone with a microscope and the knowledge of chemistry to say, positively that the moly had a detrimental affect on the fiber plates of your clutch.
5.  I do believe that the word "guess" denotes an opinion, so again, no argument here.  I've got my opinion, you've got your's.  Mine's based on experience.  And when something doesn't turn out like I think it should, I don't jump to a conclusion without some facts.  Like a scientist saying that moly killed my clutch.

[eldar]

Go ahead, prove to us that you don't beat the wife and kids in secret.

Funny how you get so defensive and rude when someone dishes it back to you. Sorry but 333 is right here. You only have YOUR opinion. He stated his opinion and let it be known as that, you on the other hand want everyone to take what you say as complete truth.

Sorry if I come off rude but maybe you can choose your words better.

And sorry to everyone else for my little outburst.