Author Topic: Resistors.. necessary?  (Read 6069 times)

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Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2005, 10:33:02 AM »
Eldar, I have to disagree with you. I have fitted resistors to my spark caps and have noticed no difference in power or speed.

The only strange thing is that now there is a resonant circuit between the capacitor petcock and the inductive sidecovers and my bike has become a radio receiver!!!!. Music gets out by the exhaust pipes (quadraphonic, it's impressing!!!!! The problem is that it is not possible to change frequency, and it is fixed in what seems to be a children station, and they play the same tune all the time: "London bridge is falling down". Nothing wrong about it, but I don't look cool on my CB with that tune.

I will change the resistor values and will experiment until I find a cooler station, something like KNAC or any other that plays rock. Probably I will try first with 2k2 resistor, for no other reason that they have all the colour bands red and they match my CB color.

When I'm done I will probably put a flux capacitor in each cap. As there is a wasted spark in the exhaust phase, the flux capacitor will store the energy and return it in the explosion phase. Thus the spark will be twice as strong. Am I not smart????????


Raul

« Last Edit: September 15, 2005, 10:34:44 AM by Raul CB750K1 »

Offline Cvillechopper

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2005, 11:43:25 AM »
Strictly speaking, Raul, the flux capacitor won't store the spark, merely send it ahead to the following combustion stroke.  You did give me a great idea though, maybe I could hook the flux unit up the my second petcock and have the extra gas sent ahead to the exhaust so I get the flaming exhaust look...  Now that would make the chop look NASTY at a stop light when some puke in a suped up civic wants to rev his engine at me.  Give her a twist and belch fire.  Think he'd want to race?

Also, I think you need to work on your color scheme for the capacitors.  Get some green one and go for the holiday look :)
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.  Aristotle

eldar

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2005, 12:14:51 PM »
Like I said raul, I doubt anyone would notice a difference without testing equipment. After all, our engines are old tech and minute changes to spark dont do much.  A spark tester might be able to show the difference otherwise a dyno might show a slight change..if there is one.

I like the fire idea but butane or propane would work better!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2005, 12:20:41 PM »

So, to summarise (summarize):

5k resistance is good for supressing interference but you shouldn't use resistive plugs, caps and wires at the same time (?)

That's a good summary, I think.  And, I might add that that is exactly what Honda delivered in stock form.  I haven't found many extraneous, non-useful, parts on these bikes.

I spent many years working for Xerox and 3Com Corp., working on Ethernet, baseband, and broadband transmission systems.  In later years, I found the knowledge gained working there, useful for eliminating both EMI interference and suseptability in PCB design and product packaging.  As chip devices installed on PC Boards got faster and faster, so too did the rise times associated with these devices.  Board traces had to be thought of as transmission lines or the rise time spike generated would radiate to other traces acting as receiving antennas.  Or, into free air where the FCC, CSA, VDE an other countries regulatory organizations around the world objected to energy broadcast into their controlled space.  
There are many techniques that can be applied to quiet PC boards besides physical barriers, which usually have an impact on packaging.  One technique to quiet signal traces is wave shapping.  Termination resistors do just that but reducing the spike or overshoot at the leading edge of the transmitted signal, thereby limiting the energy radiated outside the transmission line.  The leading edge slope changes, and the energy spike lessens and broadens in duration.  These effects can be seen with an oscilloscope.  And, the shapes are the same regardless of the voltage levels employed by the linked devices.  It is based on these lessons and experience that I confidently state that while the absolute initial peak of the spark impulse may be reduced somewhat, the duration of the spark pulse is broadened, when a series termination resistor is employed.  And, while I haven't done the calculations to determine just how well matched the 5K specified resistor employed by Honda is to the impedance characteristics of the SOHC4 ignition system, I'm comfortable trusting them to that choice.  Further, 10K ohm series resistance will make the waveform rise time slower, as well as excessively reduce the voltage passed to the plug gap.  This can tolerated while the plugs are new.  But, to maintain proper sparking, the plug will have to be serviced/replaced more frequently as their voltage needs will increase over time.

The zero ohm case will indeed allow higher peak intantaneous voltage at the spark electrodes.  One drawback of this is that spark errosion of the electrodes increases.  This will shorten the life of the plugs as the electrodes physically deteriorate more rapidly.  The gap will increase over time, and approach ever closer to the maximum limit capabiliity of the coil.  This peak will be of a narrow duration.  I note that popular MSD ignition systems provide multiple spark pulses of increased event duration to fully involve the chambered mixture and help achieve complete combustion.  I believe stretching the duration of the spark, rather than the peak of the spark to be a good thing.

You can actually put a lit match out by throwing it into a full bucket of gasoline.  But, hold a match over it and whoosh.  The difference here is the time it takes to ignite the vapors coming off the surface of the fluid.

The spark at the gap must hold the compressed fuel air mixture at ignition temperture long enough for the reaction to become self sustaining, whereupon it generates its own heat.  What is better served for that purpose?  A very short duration high peak event?  Or, a slightly longer event sufficient to confidently instigate the combustion process?

Lastly there is the side benefit of the resitors reducing radiated emissions that can effect nearby radio and TV reception.  Here, I expect those that like loud, noisy, pipes to be gleefull when they drive through traffic and neighborhoods, where people can not only be assulted by the invasive exhaust note, but clicks and pops on the their radios and interference lines in the their TVs, too.  Such people will not want resistors in their ignition systems, as they enjoy the animosity and attention they receive in the process.

Frankly, I get enough of that without additional provocation.
Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2005, 03:25:43 PM »
i dont know lloyd,i still like the flux capacitor idea.

The issue with the flux capacitor is not so much the theory, but the application.  The only application I'm aware of required the Mr. Fusion unit required to charge the flux capacitor, be located in the seating area of the bike, for coupling reasons.  While this location is also helpfull in keeping the rider "situated" on the bike. Some find the bloated feeling uncomfortable.  Also, there is the problem of built up gasses from the beer and chilli unable to exit the occupied orifice in a timely manner that brings on the feeling of nausea and prevents long distance touring in a continuously concious state.
Your mileage may vary.

 :)
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline heffay

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2005, 06:22:11 PM »
So Yes... the answer is... The least resistance the better.
                    That is why we all ride on two instead of four!
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Offline Dennis

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2005, 10:37:27 PM »

  It is based on these lessons and experience that I confidently state that while the absolute initial peak of the spark impulse may be reduced somewhat, the duration of the spark pulse is broadened, when a series termination resistor is employed.  And, while I haven't done the calculations to determine just how well matched the 5K specified resistor employed by Honda is to the impedance characteristics of the SOHC4 ignition system, I'm comfortable trusting them to that choice.  Further, 10K ohm series resistance will make the waveform rise time slower, as well as excessively reduce the voltage passed to the plug gap.  This can tolerated while the plugs are new.  But, to maintain proper sparking, the plug will have to be serviced/replaced more frequently as their voltage needs will increase over time.



LLoyd,
where did you happen to find 5K specified for the Honda resistor. I know that the most common replacement is the NGK 5K cap but I don't think I've ever seen 5K specified in any Honda service publications.
Actually I thought I remembered seeing a reference to 10K. I have not been able to find that specification either, but I have only scanned through a couple of service books.

Offline Einyodeler

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2005, 10:47:15 PM »
Yes,the stock plug caps from Honda were 10K.
1972 CB500 - 1973 CB500 - 1974 CB550K - 1975 CB550F - 1975 CB750F - 1976 CJ360 - 1983 CR480 - 1970 BSA A65T Thunderbolt



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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2005, 01:06:50 AM »
I was told by two different Honda parts countermen that the stock part number cross reference was for the 5K offering.  They were normally pretty reliable and diligent.  But, not infallible.  At the time, they said they could get the same boot configurations in 0, 5k, 7.5K, and 10K.
I have no documentation proving either 5K or 10K was what came on the stock bike.

I just went out and measured my 77 CB550F with original plug caps;  10.5K.

Oh well...
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2005, 05:22:17 AM »
realizing my stock caps are about 35 years old,they are 10k
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

eldar

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2005, 09:21:40 AM »
The earlier hondas probably had 10k, my 78k though had 5k for caps. Maybe they found over the years that 5k worked better and switched to that. Things are not always perfect right away, even for honda. Just look at the changes over the years to fix problem areas.

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2005, 09:30:03 AM »
could be,i did put on the ngk 5k cap.havent really noticed a difference either way.
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

eldar

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2005, 09:39:32 AM »
I doubt there is much of a difference with new plugs. I am getting new caps since I still have the originals. The new ngk can have the resistor taken out. So I wil experiment to see what I find out. After all, different bikes behave differently even more so since I have different carbs than the earlier 750s.

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2005, 11:19:47 AM »
eldar,which end of the cap has the resistor in it.i may do that myself.
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2005, 02:04:08 PM »
If I'm not wrong there are plugs with embedded resistors, but I could be wrong, misinformed or just telling bullcrap  ;D

Raul

Offline Einyodeler

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Re: Resistors.. necessary?
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2005, 02:31:42 PM »
It looks like not all NGK caps have a removable resistor. My long XD series have a threaded end that you can get out with a flat screwdriver and the short VD series do not. On my OEM caps they`re also removable.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 05:06:48 AM by Glenn Stauffer »
1972 CB500 - 1973 CB500 - 1974 CB550K - 1975 CB550F - 1975 CB750F - 1976 CJ360 - 1983 CR480 - 1970 BSA A65T Thunderbolt



Download Motorcycle Shop Manuals here: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=17788.0