Author Topic: 2 weeks after changing muffler: Bike running RICH (cb400)  (Read 4907 times)

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matt400f

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2 weeks after changing muffler: Bike running RICH (cb400)
« on: September 23, 2008, 11:02:39 AM »
So, I replaced my stock muffler, that was mostly likely 35+ years and full of rusty holes, with an aftermarket generic muffler. The bike sounded great and seemed to drive pretty well. There was some closed to full open throttle hesitation, but that was present before the swap, and I'm assuming because of the 35+ year old carbs that have not been touched.

So I've been driving the bike for 2 weeks, and it's been randomely stalling - now its at the point where I can't keep it idling / running.

-Plugs are new, though they keep getting fouled / black carbon deposits
- Air filter is brand new last weekend
- I turned the "mixture" screw all the way in, and then 1.5 turns out..

That's where I am now - can't get her to idle, she will start up, and run rough, and die - unless I keep the throttle open.

I'm sure this is a very open ended answer, though at this point I just want to get the bike running enough to get her back home (currently been sitting in the parking lot of my office for 2 days).

Obvious things I should adjust and be looking for?

Thanks!


Offline WFO

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Re: 2 weeks after changing muffler: Bike running RICH (cb400)
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2008, 02:09:34 PM »
So, I replaced my stock muffler, that was mostly likely 35+ years and full of rusty holes, with an aftermarket generic muffler. The bike sounded great and seemed to drive pretty well. There was some closed to full open throttle hesitation, but that was present before the swap, and I'm assuming because of the 35+ year old carbs that have not been touched.

So I've been driving the bike for 2 weeks, and it's been randomely stalling - now its at the point where I can't keep it idling / running.

-Plugs are new, though they keep getting fouled / black carbon deposits
- Air filter is brand new last weekend
- I turned the "mixture" screw all the way in, and then 1.5 turns out..

That's where I am now - can't get her to idle, she will start up, and run rough, and die - unless I keep the throttle open.

I'm sure this is a very open ended answer, though at this point I just want to get the bike running enough to get her back home (currently been sitting in the parking lot of my office for 2 days).

Obvious things I should adjust and be looking for?

Thanks!







Try turning you mixture screw out a 1/4 at a time to see if it will run enough to get her home but i looks like the new mufflers have caused you to start running rich you maight have to raise the needle up one notch to experiment/ lean it out some or maybe even re-jet it.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 03:18:17 PM by WFO »
82 cb650 sc nighthawk - 78 kz 650 b

matt400f

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Re: 2 weeks after changing muffler: Bike running RICH (cb400)
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2008, 03:09:12 PM »
This is a stupid question, as I don't have much (read: any) experience with carbs:

Can I adjust the re-jet while the carb is still attached to the bike?

Offline WFO

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Re: 2 weeks after changing muffler: Bike running RICH (cb400)
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2008, 03:16:39 PM »
This is a stupid question, as I don't have much (read: any) experience with carbs:

Can I adjust the re-jet while the carb is still attached to the bike?


You don't adjust a jet you replace them with different sizes and it's hard to do on the bike i would say first thing you do is get a service manual.

http://hondatech.info/downloads/Moto/CB/
82 cb650 sc nighthawk - 78 kz 650 b

Offline Triffecpa

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Re: 2 weeks after changing muffler: Bike running RICH (cb400)
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2008, 03:34:35 PM »
Matt

Seems unlikely that your muffer is the cause of your problem, unless it is extremely restrictive.  How is the noise level with the new muffler vs the old one? 

Before you get wrapped up in the rejetting process, I'd make sure that the carbs and ignition are both working well.  Until you have clean carbs and a well adjusted ignition, chasing jetting problems will just lead you in circles. 

Search around the forum for info on cleaning carbs.  I'd pull the carbs off the bike and clean them out really well (no need to pull the rack of carbs apart).  Cleaning will require the removal of the main and pilot jets. 
and sure and spray carb cleaner thru the brass tubes in the carb inlets when you have the jets out.  Those passages are all connected inside of the carb bodies.

Do you still have points ignition, or does the bike have a Dyna S?  There are "points pros" on this board that swear the adjusting points is a no brainer.  I'm pretty mechanically inclined though and they baffle the crap outta me.  My first step after cleaning the carbs on any of the old bikes that I try and resurrect is to put a Dyna ignition on it.  It's a "set it and forget it" process and then you can eliminate the ignition as part of your tuning problems.  I usually replace the old coils with early 80's Honda coils that have the removable plug wires and add new Dyna wires ($16 from Z1 Enterprises). 

Next step is to make sure that the valves are properly adjusted.  Then and only then, do I worry about jetting the carbs. 

When you get to the jetting process, but another new set of plugs in it and then I start with wide open throttle and work my way down thru the mid-range and then to idle.

To address your immediate need of getting the bike home, just try putting in a new set of plugs.  Even if you are rich, the new plugs won't foul immediately and you should be able to get home.

Tracy
« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 03:37:37 PM by Triffecpa »

Offline WFO

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Re: 2 weeks after changing muffler: Bike running RICH (cb400)
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2008, 03:42:13 PM »
I just suspected the muffler because thats all he replaced and he stated that it ran fine prior to the replacement  ???
82 cb650 sc nighthawk - 78 kz 650 b

Offline Triffecpa

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Re: 2 weeks after changing muffler: Bike running RICH (cb400)
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2008, 03:45:56 PM »
Maybe, but if the carbs are misadjusted or dirty, or the ignition is out of whack, it can progressively run worse as the plugs foul.  So the changing of the muffler just might be a coincidence.  I've never know one of these things to run perfectly without going thru the carbs and ignition and valves, but other people might be luckier than me...  :)

TR


Offline WFO

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Re: 2 weeks after changing muffler: Bike running RICH (cb400)
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2008, 03:50:24 PM »
Maybe, but if the carbs are misadjusted or dirty, or the ignition is out of whack, it can progressively run worse as the plugs foul.  So the changing of the muffler just might be a coincidence.  I've never know one of these things to run perfectly without going thru the carbs and ignition and valves, but other people might be luckier than me...  :)

TR




Ohhh i hear ya iam sure he has to do a complete carb service IMO i just wanna help him get it home first.
82 cb650 sc nighthawk - 78 kz 650 b

matt400f

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Re: 2 weeks after changing muffler: Bike running RICH (cb400)
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2008, 04:31:39 PM »
Update: I just made some mixture adjustments and it seems I have the bike ridable. The problem now is the idle, as it is revving up freely and running somewhat less rich (from what I can see/smell). I compensated for this by adjusting the large throttle screw, located on the left front side of the carbs.

I do have a manual, however I'm sitting at my desk in my office, so I don't have it with me.

I have no idea on the timing, and it appears to have the original points - I should research this much more...

the old muffler is just as loud as the stock one, and throatier.

Thanks for all the help, I'll keep everyone updated!

matt400f

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Re: 2 weeks after changing muffler: Bike running RICH (cb400)
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2008, 07:05:31 AM »
still running pretty crappy, but I can keep her idling by adjusting the throttle position screw, I'm thinking about selling her now thought  :-\



http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/mcy/853862595.html

Offline mattcb350f

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Re: 2 weeks after changing muffler: Bike running RICH (cb400)
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2008, 03:24:46 PM »
Just read your post about selling the 400 Matt...

...If you gotta sell for personal reasons then that's what you gotta do.

But if it's because it won't purr like a kitten........then......well.....I would have sold everyting I own by now if I felt that way.  :D

Forgive me if the following is low balling your tech abilities, I just want to help you with the old girl and don't want to leave any stone un-turned:

These old bikes only really run perfectly when all systems involved are tuned to perfection.

Some of these systems tend to cause more headaches than others; refering to the carbs and ignition.

However, these aren't always the source of the problem. Old fuel, loose electrical connections, tight/loose valve adjustment, intake leaks, pluged airfilter/box, bad sparkplugs (cracked insulators), etc..... are some other problems which can mimic both carb and ignition issues.

There can also be mechanical issues such as low compression, worn cams, burnt valves....

SO.....I when a machine is sick, I like to start from the begining with the most basic of basic things and get to the bottom of the problem from there. After all, the best answer is usually the simplist.

You have a bike that partially runs which means that you are very close to perfection. There is a problem somewhere that has not been addressed or a combination of a few problems.

Start by verifying that the battery has juice....lights work, as well as starter.

Check the fuel level, and verify that fuel is making it's way to the carbs........I think you did this already?

Check to see that after the bike has started (or somewhat :P) that you have then turned the choke OFF. I have nearly gone as far as pulling the carbs apart when I discovered that I misunderstud the correct choke positioning  ::) (I left it on..)
DOWN is off (rotated clockwise) and UP is ON. The bike should run when warm with it OFF.

Now, This is where the bike runs poorly right? It revs but wont idle.

Verify that it is running too rich at idle by slowly putting the choke ON, while maintaining around 1200-1500 rpm with the throttle, and see how the bike reacts.

Somewhere close to full choke the bike should either die, or begin to run better. If it dies than yes, it is too rich. If it begins to run a little better than it's too lean.

Now, if the choke did anything at all then this says that it is likely a carb issue. HOWEVER, before diggin into the carbs again, have a look at everything else like the ignition system to verify it is not the problem. (SEARCH: setting points etc...)

Verifty the intake system is clear (no rag stuffed in the intake pipe under the seat or something silly ;))

Check the valve adjustment......or as a quick check, at least pull the valve caps off (17mm wrench) and the rocker arms should wiggle a very small amount. You should really adjust these but a little clearence is close enough to rule out them as the cause.
If some or all of the rockers seem tight, or very loose you need to adjust them (SEARCH: Adjusting valves...)

At this point, if no other faults have been found, I'd say pull the carbs off and have another go.

In my own experience with my 350F (virtually the same Carbs) the smallest crud in any of the jets causes havok.

If you didn't already, you should pull the main jets and push out the emulsion tubes. On my bike, every hole in these tubes was clogged and made the bike barely run.


.......well, my fingers are sore so I'll stop here  :P But if there is anywhere on the web where your mechanical issues can be sorted out with the help of fellow bike owners.......it's here at SOHC4.net.   

 Matt.

1974 CB350F,  1980 CB125S,  1981 XL80S
Non Honda's: 86 & 87 Husqvarna 400wr's

My CB350F resto: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=30467.0
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Offline tbpmusic

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Re: 2 weeks after changing muffler: Bike running RICH (cb400)
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2008, 03:56:32 PM »

Try turning you mixture screw out a 1/4 at a time to see if it will run enough to get her home but i looks like the new mufflers have caused you to start running rich you maight have to raise the needle up one notch to experiment/ lean it out some or maybe even re-jet it.


Since the needle is tapered, raising it would make it richer still.
Dropping the needle will put the fatter part of the needle in the fuel stream, causing it to be leaner.

At least I think so.......

Does fiddling with the choke make it run better at any rpm??


bill2
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Bill Lane
 '71 CB450 Mutant/ '75 CB200/ '81 CM200/ '71 C70M

matt400f

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Re: 2 weeks after changing muffler: Bike running RICH (cb400)
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2008, 03:58:49 PM »
From one cbMatt to another, thanks for all that help/advice.

I have yet to check the valves, however I did all the previously mentioned steps.

Some more info: Today I took another hour or so and tried to get her running better. I cleaned all the plugs and made sure I was getting spark. The wires look fairly new. The battery is plenty charged. I got the bike running and then used the throttle control screw to keep her idling. I went to work on adjust the idle screws at very small increments. I adjusted to a point where the bike revved very well, and sounded healthy with the throttle open to about 1,500 rpm. I did some hard revving and the exhaust pipe let out minimal smoke. I then returned the throttle screw to be completely out, so that the bike would idle naturally. At this point she would die, and they only way to get her to idle was to open up the choke about 1/8 of an inch...

So, does this sound like the carbs need to be cleaned? Float adjusted?
The points looked clean, and I used a credit card to make sure. I have not adjusted them yet, but will look into it soon...

Thanks!

Offline mattcb350f

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Re: 2 weeks after changing muffler: Bike running RICH (cb400)
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2008, 04:15:58 PM »
the idle rpm screw, the big one between carbs 3 & 4 can be left wherever the bike idles at 1200 rpm.

If you get it to idle by adjusting this, than just leave the screw at that setting.......from what you say, it sounds like you were backing (the throtlle screw) it out after you got it set?

Just set that screw so it idles between 1200 and 1500 and away you go.


 Matt.
1974 CB350F,  1980 CB125S,  1981 XL80S
Non Honda's: 86 & 87 Husqvarna 400wr's

My CB350F resto: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=30467.0
Gallery at:
http://gallery.sohc4.net/main.php?g2_itemId=298318

matt400f

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Re: 2 weeks after changing muffler: Bike running RICH (cb400)
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2008, 04:21:42 PM »
right - I can't get it to idle correcly with the screw, just above 1500 - 2000...

Offline mattcb350f

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Re: 2 weeks after changing muffler: Bike running RICH (cb400)
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2008, 04:44:04 PM »
Hmmmm. The way that screw works is that when you thread it in, the rpms go up. Thread out and they go down. Wherever it makes the bike idle at 1200 -1500 you leave it. (Backing the screw all the way out isn't natural at all,just so we got that clearified  ;)).

You say things get better when you 'open' the choke about 1/8 inch??????? AN 1/8th inch movement of the choke lever shouldn't make any difference since that hardly moves the choke plates closed enough to cause any increase in mixture.

But if you were moving it 1/8th inch from the closed position (From the up postion, pushing it down 1/8th inch)  than that would......

 Matt.

1974 CB350F,  1980 CB125S,  1981 XL80S
Non Honda's: 86 & 87 Husqvarna 400wr's

My CB350F resto: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=30467.0
Gallery at:
http://gallery.sohc4.net/main.php?g2_itemId=298318

matt400f

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Re: 2 weeks after changing muffler: Bike running RICH (cb400)
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2008, 09:46:04 PM »
1/8in = open just a little bit, to be more technical  ;D

Offline mattcb350f

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Re: 2 weeks after changing muffler: Bike running RICH (cb400)
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2008, 06:40:55 AM »
1/8in = open just a little bit, to be more technical  ;D

My head is starting to hurt a little....

Are you saying that the bike needs the choke ON (lever up, butterflies closed, from looking at the lever from the left side of the bike, rotated counter-clockwise all the way)......then lever lowered 1/8th inch (AKA..Opening the choke 1/8th inch).

This is a very important point to figure out. Maybe I'm simple and just don't understand what you're saying but it sounds like you're having to leave the choke on or slightly open to run.

If this is the case, that I'll bet that the idle jet circuits in the carbs are clogged like mine were.This would mean that the bike is not rich at all but lean.

A lean condition can also be caused by cracked intake boots, or loose clamps. However, Idle circuits are my bet.

 Matt.

 Matt.
1974 CB350F,  1980 CB125S,  1981 XL80S
Non Honda's: 86 & 87 Husqvarna 400wr's

My CB350F resto: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=30467.0
Gallery at:
http://gallery.sohc4.net/main.php?g2_itemId=298318

matt400f

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Re: 2 weeks after changing muffler: Bike running RICH (cb400)
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2008, 08:04:50 AM »
Yeah my head hurts too:

The plugs are definitely getting carbon/fuel deposits
The bike sound a lot better about 2 - 2 1/4 turns out on the idle screw.
I can not get the bike to stay idling at the correct range with just the throttle screw. The bike dies that way unless I keep it in the 2000rpm range.
To compensate for this I have to turn the choke on, just slightly.

It sounds like my carbs must be dirty/gunky inside?

Offline mattcb350f

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Re: 2 weeks after changing muffler: Bike running RICH (cb400)
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2008, 08:27:00 AM »
To compensate for this I have to turn the choke on, just slightly.

It sounds like my carbs must be dirty/gunky inside?

Yup. It sure sounds like it now.

The only other thing is that while 2 - 2 1/4 turns out is 'about' right on the idle mixture screws (one per carb, the inner ones are hard to see), these are actually air screws on these particular carbs.

Since they are air screws, turning them out actually leans the mixture. So, if you need a bit of choke to keep it running, this tells me that it's too lean. How does it run if you turn these screws in so that they are say 1/2 to 3/4 turns out?

That shoud increase the mixture enough so that you don't need the choke.

 Matt.
1974 CB350F,  1980 CB125S,  1981 XL80S
Non Honda's: 86 & 87 Husqvarna 400wr's

My CB350F resto: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=30467.0
Gallery at:
http://gallery.sohc4.net/main.php?g2_itemId=298318