Author Topic: Clutch Rattle cure?  (Read 13188 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Johnny5

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,593
    • CB350F build thread
Clutch Rattle cure?
« on: October 20, 2008, 11:24:05 AM »
I have a 77 CB750K and with the carbs synced, the clutch rattle is still obnoxious. It all goes away when the clutch is pulled in. I've done a search on this and found two popular answers: "dont worry about it" and "live with it". Which is fine, but if I can modify or replace something, I'd like too. 

Did Honda ever put out a bulletin for a fix for this?
www.kerosenecycles.com
1971 CB350
1973 CB350F
2006 Harley Springer Classic

Offline kghost

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,855
  • www.facebook.com/RetroMecanicaAustralia
Re: Clutch Rattle cure?
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2008, 11:53:51 AM »
Yup they did.

Its in the FAQ section
Stranger in a strange land

Offline Johnny5

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,593
    • CB350F build thread
Re: Clutch Rattle cure?
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2008, 12:14:45 PM »
So in the FAQ, I found this: "Clutch rattle is very common on a lot of bikes. It's really nothing to worry about. All bikes do it to some extent."

But nothing that says how to fix it, other than doing a carb sync which I have.

Hmmm...
www.kerosenecycles.com
1971 CB350
1973 CB350F
2006 Harley Springer Classic

Offline Geeto67

  • A grumpy
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,823
Re: Clutch Rattle cure?
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2008, 12:32:39 PM »
you could put on a louder exhaust....

honestly I have never found the cb clutch rattle to be obnoxious, pesky maybe, but nothing a few minutes in the corner in a "time out" couldn't cure.

seriously though, I would take the sucker apart and inspect the basket for cracks and such if it really is THAT loud.
Maintenance Matters Most

Offline Johnny5

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,593
    • CB350F build thread
Re: Clutch Rattle cure?
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2008, 12:42:42 PM »
Would you say it's louder than the cam chain and valves?
www.kerosenecycles.com
1971 CB350
1973 CB350F
2006 Harley Springer Classic

Offline Really?

  • I've come to the conclusion that I AM a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,276
Re: Clutch Rattle cure?
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2008, 12:46:20 PM »
I though there was a plate change/location that helped with this (possibly from a gw).  I am having the same issue and was gonna research it, hope I can find it again.
I don't have a motorcycle, sold it ('85 Yamaha Venture Royale).  Haven't had a CB750 for over 40 years.

The Wife's Bike - 750K5
The Kid's Bike - 750K3

Offline Geeto67

  • A grumpy
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,823
Re: Clutch Rattle cure?
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2008, 12:52:03 PM »
Would you say it's louder than the cam chain and valves?

depends on the last time the valves and chain were adjusted, but yeah I would.
Maintenance Matters Most

Offline hcritz

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
Re: Clutch Rattle cure?
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2008, 12:54:21 PM »
Hey Jonny5
I think that the 77s and 8s were supposed to have modified clutches that were quieter.
I have a K7 and the clutch rattles even tuned and carb sync spot on. I have one of Hondaman's EIUs and it idles very nicely at 1000 rpm...it still rattles! My exhaust is very quiet though...I just got used to it...nature of the beast.
ED

Offline Johnny5

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,593
    • CB350F build thread
Re: Clutch Rattle cure?
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2008, 12:55:55 PM »
Would you say it's louder than the cam chain and valves?

depends on the last time the valves and chain were adjusted, but yeah I would.

Valves/cam chain/timing all adjusted within a couple of weeks. All spot on.
www.kerosenecycles.com
1971 CB350
1973 CB350F
2006 Harley Springer Classic

Offline Really?

  • I've come to the conclusion that I AM a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,276
Re: Clutch Rattle cure?
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2008, 01:08:40 PM »
FOund what I had found earlier.  DO not know if this applies to you though.

http://www.sohc4.net/index.php?title=Image:Clutch_rattle.jpg
I don't have a motorcycle, sold it ('85 Yamaha Venture Royale).  Haven't had a CB750 for over 40 years.

The Wife's Bike - 750K5
The Kid's Bike - 750K3

Offline Magpie

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,298
Re: Clutch Rattle cure?
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2008, 01:40:13 PM »
I've done the fix with the GoldWing clutch plate on two '71 CB750's and it does make quite a difference in the noise. The plates come up for sale on Ebay sometimes.
Cheers,
Cliff.

Offline hcritz

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
Re: Clutch Rattle cure?
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2008, 01:53:44 PM »
Here is a blurb from the archives here.

The "Why" substantively was to overcome the clutch rattle problem of earlier designs.  The K6-k8 and Fs have a longer basket that uses a riveted double plate to strengthen the centre section of discs and plates, in effect, creating two shorter clutches instead of the previous single clutch.  It worked and the rattle was substantially reduced. 

As well, in general, the clutch was strengthened and oiling was improved.  The changes in the K6 design carried forward and improved some of the features that Honda mechanics had been incorporating into their maintenance of the older bikes.  This included longer and beefier springs, slightly redesigned outer and improved inner baskets, and an extra disc.

As @bryanj mentioned, the fiche will give you the specifics (but not the reasons)

Offline kghost

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,855
  • www.facebook.com/RetroMecanicaAustralia
Re: Clutch Rattle cure?
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2008, 02:04:15 PM »
FOund what I had found earlier.  DO not know if this applies to you though.

http://www.sohc4.net/index.php?title=Image:Clutch_rattle.jpg

Thanks Gigawhiskey thats the one I was thinking of.

Johnny 5 sorry for steering ya off...thought it was in the FAQ.
Stranger in a strange land

Offline BobbyR

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,367
  • Proud Owner of the Babe Thread & Dirty Old Man
Re: Clutch Rattle cure?
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2008, 02:32:52 PM »
I remember some years ago seeing a fix back in the Greenspun days. It seemed like a fairly complicated procedure and may have included installing a plate or spacer. While you can minimize it through making the bike idle smoother. I am sure Honda was aware of it and I have a 78 which should be quieter. There may be no way to eliminate it with the current design. You would imagine that in the long run this bike had, the Honda engineers would have quieted it. It may have been a trade off between silence and longevity. Considering how many of us ride these bikes daily/weekly, they sure have longevity. 
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline speedy gonzalais

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 417
Re: Clutch Rattle cure?
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2008, 02:33:00 PM »
The rattle used to drive me nuts if i was doing any tunning or adjusting id tie the clutch lever to the bars, But since ive had strait thru pipes i havnt noticed it.
If theres a fix i doubt it will cure the rattle just make it more quiet than normal, Ive also heard all wet clutches rattle and the bigger it is the louder it rattles, you should hear the noise a friends z1000 makes.
82' C90
87' yamaha T80
79' CB125T/CD200 project
82' CB650z
80s kawasaki ae50/150cc project
92' Suzuki GSXR600
80' CB250N

Offline Spikeybike

  • when planting C4 at your enemy's base make sure you don't use a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,265
  • member #1150
Re: Clutch Rattle cure?
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2008, 03:21:43 PM »
i put a Barrnet clutch kit , with the HD springs , no more rattle

Offline Really?

  • I've come to the conclusion that I AM a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,276
Re: Clutch Rattle cure?
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2008, 03:24:02 PM »
I saw that Dynoman had the Barnett and DP kits.  It mentioned the DP kits had an extra plate.  I wonder if that kit will also do the same thing.  It was a bit cheaper.
I don't have a motorcycle, sold it ('85 Yamaha Venture Royale).  Haven't had a CB750 for over 40 years.

The Wife's Bike - 750K5
The Kid's Bike - 750K3

Offline Spikeybike

  • when planting C4 at your enemy's base make sure you don't use a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,265
  • member #1150
Re: Clutch Rattle cure?
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2008, 03:26:44 PM »
i just liked the word "Kevlar" ;D

Offline Tower

  • Only at conception could I have been called a
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 704
  • My personal time machine: 1973 CB750K3
Re: Clutch Rattle cure?
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2008, 07:47:44 PM »
A rattle that persists when the clutch is locked up can most times be quieted with beefier springs.  Its cheap and usually works.

More discs would exacerbate the problem, so going that route is questionable.

If that noise is still bothersome after beefing up the springs, it may indicate the double plate rivets are coming loose, or the outer clutch basket has loosened up and/or is not well balanced.  Try replacing the double rivet centre plate (about the same cost as new springs),  if persists replace the basket (a little more expensive than springs), or for ultimate performance get a pro shop to balance the outer basket (considerably more expensive than springs).


Offline kghost

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,855
  • www.facebook.com/RetroMecanicaAustralia
Re: Clutch Rattle cure?
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2008, 09:24:45 AM »
I've found that the Barnett plates make the rattle worse.

Springs do help but the plates must be a slightly smaller dimension and make the Rattle louder.
Stranger in a strange land

Offline dusterdude

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,482
Re: Clutch Rattle cure?
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2008, 09:32:44 AM »
wet clutches as a rule dont rattle,my sportster doesnt rattle and my cbr doesnt rattle,actually my k1 doesnt either,however my panhead which has a dry clutch does rattle and that is good because that tells me the plates are separating when the clutch lever is pulled and it also irritates the citizens in their cars which is always fun.
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

Offline crazypj

  • I'm brill, me
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,467
  • first 100,000 miles. 1977 CB550F
Re: Clutch Rattle cure?
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2008, 09:57:30 AM »
 More than likely someone has been drag racing the damn thing at sometime and the dampers between clutch drive and basket are cooked.
 Its possible to grind off rivets and replace dampers although getting replacements is difficult (cant remember if it has 'rubber' inserts or springs, haven't done one for about 30 yrs)
 It may also be severely worn primary chains
PJ
I fake being smart pretty good
'you can take my word for it or argue until you find out I'm right'

Offline bert96

  • past ride
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,385
Re: Clutch Rattle cure?
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2008, 02:55:03 PM »
I though there was a plate change/location that helped with this (possibly from a gw).  I am having the same issue and was gonna research it, hope I can find it again.


I did this modification,it help a little bit,but it's not perfect,just like you i'm looking for something that will cure the rattle
QA50 1969,ST-90 1974,mb5 1982,rz350 1983,shadow 1100 1985,vf1000f 1985,BMW K1 1990,shadow tourer 1100 2001,vfr 750 1994,vtr250 199?

Offline Tower

  • Only at conception could I have been called a
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 704
  • My personal time machine: 1973 CB750K3
Re: Clutch Rattle cure?
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2008, 04:41:47 PM »
999/1000 times the rattle noise is caused by the tabs on the frictions disks bouncing back and forth between the fingers of the outer basket and plate teeth rattling against the clutch inner.

On clutches with lots of mileage the baskets may have notches made by the disk tabs and plate teeth, which increases the space and hence the rattle.  In combination, the tabs and teeth themselves may have been worn, giving similar results.  The obvious solution is to replace the worn outer basket and the friction disks, less often worn inner basket and clutch plates.  Manufacturing tolerances being what they were, there is a chance that any new parts will be that tiny "thou" smaller and so swapping will not fix the problem.

It may depend on a particular clutch as to which noise is more pronounced inner or outer.  Usually outer is the culprit.

Stronger springs tend to hold steady one source of the vibrations that cause the clutch to rattle (i.e. they hold the inner clutch more rigidly).  However, the main vibration is caused by vibrations in the primary chain coming through the main transmission shaft into the clutch outer.  There is no way to dampen the clutch outer except by balancing the outer basket. 

Unfortunately this still leaves mainshaft vibrations as a major source.  Hence, 1/1000 times, work is needed on the primary chain and chain damper, to quiet the clutch.  (edit: Maybe I should reword this: Any work to quiet the primary chain will quiet the clutch, buts its not usually necessary in all but 1/1000 cases....better  ;))

Finally higher viscosity oil plays a part.  The thicker the quieter.  Unfortunately, the trade off is in difficulty in shifting as the heavier oil has the effect of closing the tolerances especially of the dogs, but also shims and shift fork.

So, if your are looking for the holy grail of clutch rattle, I hope this has helped.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 04:47:32 PM by Tower »

Offline crazypj

  • I'm brill, me
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,467
  • first 100,000 miles. 1977 CB550F
Re: Clutch Rattle cure?
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2008, 11:15:01 PM »
 If the clutch discs are rattling around it means the carbs are still out of synch and/or the idle is too low. easy way to find out, load the clutch by putting it in gear and let lever out slightly so clutch is slipping very slightly. If its quiet, you have problem. If its worse, its primary chains
 Unless its an early model with 4 cables it should be easy to get carbs in synch
The center and basket are in two pieces riveted together with either damper washers or springs in between, I forget which. (you have to remove rivets to find out)
All the 750's I've done had steel baskets and either one piece composite or  composite/alloy plates so there is no wear on the tabs/fingers
PJ
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 11:21:43 PM by crazypj »
I fake being smart pretty good
'you can take my word for it or argue until you find out I'm right'