Topic: English and Canadian health care reviews?

[Uncle Ernie]

Got to thinking how a lot of folks are afraid of government healthcare "like they have in Canada (or England)".

So- what's up with that?  Are you folks up North or across the pond disgruntled?  I mean- Americans are already disgruntled, so how bad can it get?  Are sick people in your country wishing for a government-sponsored bullet?  Is it really all that bad?

[dave400]

Just been through the NHS  system here in the UK and I can’t fault the service provided at every level ….bloody fantastc people!
Cheers
Dave

[cleveland]

I hear the big issues are not with every day health care.  It's with the big issues like cancer.  This is just what I hear, I have no personal experience. 

[Rocking-M]

It seems the, should I dare say it, theeee French have a super health care system.
Just saw a news report last week on the French system. Seemed really nice.
So lets throw them in this discussion too.

[City Boy]

The system here in Canuckistan is much better than those on the right portray it and not quite as good as those on the left would have you believe.It is mostly covered by taxes via federal transfers and by provincial general tax revenues.There are some mostly cosmetic procedures which are patient pay.Employers also pay into the funding here in Ontario as well as an income based fee payable by taxpayers which tops out at about a grand I think.Our hospitals are clean and well equipped with the always present room for improvement.Staffing  levels are often a problem but as my family Doctor tells me,the staffing problem is most acute with very ill and generally elder people needing constant attention.On a personal level,I had 2 feet removed from my exhaust pipe from Crohns ,I was treated royally from entry to exit .My wife died from Cancer and was treated immediately at diagnosis and like family the four months she was in and out of hospital.Are there problems?absolutely.Do people fall through the cracks?For sure.However,for the most part we get timely,professional service and do not go broke paying for it.Nor do we have Insurance company's syphoning dollars that could go to care,nor do we have Insurance company"s dictating to our health care providers what will and will not be covered.To sum it up;I thank my lucky stars we have the system we do,warts and all.I've said this before'we have capitalism with a conscience here in the Great White North.Bear in mind also,right now,Canada is the envy of the G7 countries,we can't have it all wrong,can we?Forgive me if I sound boastfull,but I am quite proud of "my home and native land"   Rock ON

[City Boy]

May I also say,check out the life expectancy of some of these supposedly socialist cesspools!   Rock On

[cleveland]

My wife died from Cancer and was treated immediately at diagnosis and like family the four months she was in and out of hospital.

You think they treated her well and did the best they could?  My biggest fear with a national health care program is it not helping when you need it most.

[Rocking-M]

My wife died from Cancer and was treated immediately at diagnosis and like family the four months she was in and out of hospital.

You think they treated her well and did the best they could?  My biggest fear with a national health care program is it not helping when you need it most.

Cleveland, that is exactly the problem we have here in the States, those who need it most and don't have the bucks or the insurance don't get the
care they deserve unless they want to be guinea pigs. Yep, that's right, just saw a report on a cancer patient who had no insurance and the only way
she could get any care was enter a program, drug company sponsored program, with experimental drugs. So, in our country if you don't have the riches,
you can serve as a test patient for those who do have the riches.

[bwaller]

Well stated CB and I agree completely. There is always room for improvement, but on the whole we should be thankful for our health care system.

I'm also really sorry about the loss of your wife.

[nickjtc]

Speaking as a recipient of health care both in Canada and the UK, I can only voice the sentiment of both countries. If you have an acute problem, as in you are about to die, stat (don't you just love the -isms you pick up by wathcing prime-time tv.... ) you will receive health care above and beyond the best in the world. However, if you have an 'elective' or non-life theatening illness be prepared for the system to grind through its gears. I have an atrial arrythmia situation. I'm not about to die tomorrow, but the waiting list to put it right is three years. Unfortunately I have neither the means or choice to elect for a quicker (aka) private or pay-as-you-go option.

All in all though I figure that the $96 per month (family rate) that I spend is well worth it.

[dave400]

All in all though I figure that the $96 per month (family rate) that I spend is well worth it.

Blimey that’s cheap, the UK is a bit more expensive but still excellent value I think.

Cheers
Dave

[ieism]

Interesting topic.

We have a similar system as in France I believe, it's not so bad. I agree that the urgent cases get great care immediately.
My father was on the operating table in 5 days after they found cancer. He got great care, and is well now again.

I was on a waiting list for a shoulder operation for nearly a year, I didn't have too much pain if I didn't windsurf so the doctors figured I could wait. While this is annoying, it's pretty fair really.
I had the top orthopaedic specialist in the whole of Europe. He does knee surgery on all the top athletes and soccer stars in Europe, and I didn't have to pay anything extra.

I pay about $90 a month for dental and medical, everything is covered. If I don't get sick for a year or see a doctor or recieve medication, I get $200 back. 

[Demon67]

Yeah I've said it before the  Canadian health care system is good, not without flaws but good, My wife was found to have a skin cancer, Bang, biopsy, Bang, two weeks later in hospital procedure done, and follow up done within a week, Cancer gone, this in a area with not a huge population, so as far it goes its great, Me I used to go to the Ottawa Jazz festival and one evening as we hit the main gates my heart went thump, thumpity, thumpity, thumpity and with in 15 minutes I was in a hospital waited about 5-10 minutes maybe and was in a bed being checked out. Last month or so was working on the house and my right hand swelled up to about triple the size and ached like hell I was going to ignore it but next morning I drove my wife to work and there was a little walk in medical clinic next to where she works. So rather than go up to the regional health center I waited 20 min minutes in the car and when they opened up went in, within 10-20 minutes saw the doctor and was out with prescription in hand they'd already faxed it to the pharmacy, the major reason I didn't go up to the hospital was I was going to have to go to emerg and there are sick people there and I didn't want to slow them down, any how so far treatment in a semi rural area and city have been good, plus no cost, good care, people great,
Now if ED pops in here he'll scream communism but from my perspective when you are sick you don't want or need to worry about how to pay

[Uncle Ernie]

Come on you guys- pile in here.

Where's the resentment, hate, frustration?  I'm bring this information to Americans who want to hear how bad you have it.  There must be something wrong.  It's socialism- aren't you at least embarassed about that?

[super pasty white guy]

Ernie,

Thanks for bringing this up in a rational way...

I've been taking a course at school on health systems and health care policy.  Two things we had to watch / read were a PBS frontline special on systems in other countries that was really well done http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/

and the New England Journal of Medicine article comparing the canidates proposed revisions to health care.  http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/359/8/781

Both were excellent pieces, for those who are interested.

spwg

[Demon67]

Socialism, Ernie I don't Know if its socialism or not but if my wife and I lived in the states she would be dead or suffering over a long time and personally that would drive me mad, I would at a certain point consider "assisted suicide" and to kill the one thing or person that I really love, would be madness. Living in Canada means that decision is not here yet.
Bill the demon

[rhos1355]

I personally have experienced 3 country's health care systems; Italy, Holland and UK each to a varying degree but feel I can chip in to this thread with an opinion. The worst by far was Italy, the health care payment system there works pretty much on the same lines as here in the UK, the only difference is that the service in Italy SUCKS! It seems the health service there is the place where that nation's laziest dossers find work. But that's another thread. Holland was very very good but fortunately in 9 years of working there I rarely needed it. The best is the UK, but it has flaws like every service has and in some cases it is a post code lottery; it depends where you live or what kind of service you require. You're seriously ill? No problem, you're on the fast track. You've got a sore knee? Pffhht, forget it, the doc's on holiday and we can fix you up with a visit in let's saaaayyy, 3 weeks? Then the real fun starts; the doc's gonna refer you to a consultant/specialist.........3 months wait! Before you get there, the pain's gone and you don't really need to see him.
Hhhmmn. Just had a thought. Maybe that's the whole idea? Your knee cures itself, you cancel the appointment........everyone's a winner

[City Boy]

Your last line reminds me of sumtin Rhos.A pitfall I think here in Canada is ironically the very fact you don't have to dip in your pocket every time you need health care service.I have no facts,only experience to form this opinion.Far too many people show up at emerg. rooms and clinics for ailments not requiring any action or with  those only needing some common sense home care.Signing in at emerg. starts an expensive and time consuming process whether further medical attention ends up being needed or not.I have long felt even a token cash charge up front,with a method in place exempting the less fortunate,would go a long way to cut down on frivolous visits and help in no small way to improve our system.      Rock On

[Demon67]

Maybe let the emerg nurses triage the patients, those who are faking it get to pay while those who aren't don't, I'm fairly sure there would be nurses who'd love that scheme.
Bill the demon.

[Rocking-M]

Your last line reminds me of sumtin Rhos.A pitfall I think here in Canada is ironically the very fact you don't have to dip in your pocket every time you need health care service.I have no facts,only experience to form this opinion.Far too many people show up at emerg. rooms and clinics for ailments not requiring any action or with  those only needing some common sense home care.Signing in at emerg. starts an expensive and time consuming process whether further medical attention ends up being needed or not.I have long felt even a token cash charge up front,with a method in place exempting the less fortunate,would go a long way to cut down on frivolous visits and help in no small way to improve our system.      Rock On

hey, folks with insurance do the same round here, but, I blame the med profession some.
It seems they want to push drugs for every little sniffle or scratch.

[City Boy]

Very true Rocking.The"Business" side of medical treatment is huge,mind you without that we would have much slower progress in new and improved treatments,and yes,some Doc's are just prescription writers.

[nickjtc]

Far too many people show up at emerg. rooms and clinics for ailments not requiring any action or with  those only needing some common sense home care.Signing in at emerg. starts an expensive and time consuming process whether further medical attention ends up being needed or not.I

That is absolutely the case here where I live. But it is unfortunately exacerbated by the fact that there is an acute shortage of physicians. By the end of this year one in eight people here in town will not have a family physician and will have to rely on walk-in clinics or the ER. Yes, people should take some initiative in assessing their ailments, but human nature being what it is there are those who need the comfort that being cared for by a professional provides.

Interestingly one of the reasons being mooted for the Canadian lack of physicians at any one time is that more and more women are being accepted into med. school (or optometry, law, or any other profession you care to name). When they graduate, they want to have a family life as well as work, which means that there are fewer doctor (optometrist etc, etc) hours than there were when these professions were predominantly male orientated.

[Magpie]

It's an discussion with no clear cut answer. I live in Canada. All I know is that I pay $96/month for my medical service. My mother pays less. Both my wife and my mother have had cancer with immediate treatment upon finding it. Both are still here. We have not paid much more other than some prescriptions for anti nausea drugs for chemo. I can walk into a clinic and receive first class treatment for my $96. When I travel to the US I need at least $1,000,000 of insurance in case I have a problem. Without insurance a problem could bankrupt me - that doesn't seem right. I understand there are more people without health insurance in the US than the number of people that live in Canada. That doesn't seem right either. Does it?
Just asking................
Cliff.

[Uncle Ernie]

hey, folks with insurance do the same round here, but, I blame the med profession some.
It seems they want to push drugs for every little sniffle or scratch.
[/quote]


I have a strong suspician that's mostly because people come in demanding drugs they see on TV, and many doctors don't have the guts to send them packing.  Plus, it's easy money. 
Speaking of which, when I was intensive care for 18 days because a surgeon didn't know what he was doing, strange men would come into my room; "Mr Ernie?  Hi, I'm Dr So-And-So.  How are you doing (patting my leg)?"  Well, Doc, I'm so **bleep** from drugs, I saw my cat jump under the bed last time and I'm afraid I might be a drug addict by the time I get out of here.  I can't sleep without the TV on.  And who are you again?  Turns out these guys go up and down the halls stopping in every room like this- and then charge an $85 consultation fee.  No #$%*!  On their lunch hours they go up and down hospital halls raking in the money for NOTHING!!!

Sorry... Anyway, drug companies talk about how much $$$ is needed for research, but good godamighty- how many millions are they spending on advertising?!  Your doctor should be telling YOU what you need- not the other way around.

Mr Pasty White Guy- that was some great research there. 

So- Americans are afraid of Socialism.  They picture an end result (I guess) of the Goernment owning everything.  No more small business, and you only get one brand of toilet paper.  Lord knows- Americans do love their own style of toilet paper.


This is (or is supposed to be, in the Republican Handbook) a Free-Market Capitalistic Democracy.  The very idea of Soialism is anathema.  They / we fret over lazy welfare recipients where too much money is being funneled.  These same folks don't seem to notice all the money is giving to big businesses and banks.  (GM has it's hand out now?  Yeoooowwww!)  Corporate welfare.  That makes me a Left-Wing Liberal Democrat for even pointing that out and if I don't like it then why don't I move to England or - even more degrading- FRANCE.  To many folks in this country, asking questions is unpatriotic.  Especially when we have so many soldiers in Iraq and we might shake their enthusiasm for their job if we question what's going on here.

So... one finds oneself (me, actually) wondering.. thinking that it seems to me most of Europe is living with Capitalism AND Socialism side-by-side and they seem to get along just fine.  What is the big deal?  Why can't we just admit we're doing it already and the sky is not going to fall in?

This started out as a sort of research project, but maybe it's getting p[olitical now?  I'm not sure.  Just thought I'd wonder out loud with some friends.  I don't really know what to do with my new-found realization.

[nickjtc]

In my ignorance I have to admit that I did not know that the issue of initiating social health care was related to politics. Only that here in Canada the threat of it being 'downgraded' (ie becoming partially privatised) is a constant political hot potato.

For the record I too think that my $96 per month (for me and the missis) is money well spent. For the first 90% of my life I made no claim against the system, but was happy to contribute. Now I have to use the medical services out there, albeit infrequently, I count my blessings that we have the system that we have.

If a modest fee-for-service was introduced, I wouldn't complain about that, either.