Author Topic: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'  (Read 76872 times)

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Offline scunny

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #325 on: April 14, 2010, 09:40:18 pm »
25.4 is a hell of a high. mine has done the same a couple of times now. I can't think of anything else that you haven't done. by the by a friends Duc monster did the same and replacing the solenoid fixed that . ???
past-cb100,ts250,cb500,cb500,gs1000,gs650g.phillips traveller
present-CB 650 retro
            VTR1000F3
           XL250S riverbed rocket
           TS250[sold]
           TS185[sold]
           XL125S[sold]
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           KN250/XS400 project
           XR/XL250 bitsa under construction
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Offline Frankenkit

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #326 on: April 14, 2010, 09:55:36 pm »
at least I can isolate it to the rotor, the brushes, or the wires to/from them.  last time it "came back", there was a lump of solder on the edge of the rotor connecting to either the black slipring or the right, and everything tested ok when the alternator cover was off, but went to hell when it was on, so we filed down the top of the solder just enough so we felt the clearance was ok, and all tested out well.  I wonder if that problem has reemerged.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 09:57:21 pm by Kit »
"Moderation in all things - especially moderation. Too much moderation is excessive. The occasional excess is all part of living the moderate life."
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1980 CB650c- (sold) Delilah
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Offline scottly

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #327 on: April 14, 2010, 10:04:28 pm »
get some sleep, Kit.....
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline scunny

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #328 on: April 14, 2010, 10:07:10 pm »
noooooooooooo. there is more to be done in the interest of all us 650 owners.
past-cb100,ts250,cb500,cb500,gs1000,gs650g.phillips traveller
present-CB 650 retro
            VTR1000F3
           XL250S riverbed rocket
           TS250[sold]
           TS185[sold]
           XL125S[sold]
           MT50 (white)
           MT50 (red)[sold]
           KN250/XS400 project
           XR/XL250 bitsa under construction
           SL100[sold]
           XL250R
           pedal(pub bike) leaks oil
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Offline scottly

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #329 on: April 14, 2010, 10:14:14 pm »
noooooooooooo. there is more to be done in the interest of all us 650 owners.

She won't be of help to anyone if she doesn't get some well deserved rest...

scunny, I can't see how a charging problem could be related to a solenoid, unless this is a lingo issue (you guys on the other side of the world sometimes talk different! ;) )
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Offline Frankenkit

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #330 on: April 14, 2010, 10:17:09 pm »
I need to at least stay 'awake' 'til 11 when I pick MickeyX up from work, but I'm too shot for shop work.  TwoTired suggested that there could be something preventing the motor from turning over, but today, at a loss, I put it in first and pushed/bumped it and it was just as much of a pain as it is in first when it's cool in the morning. :-\
"Moderation in all things - especially moderation. Too much moderation is excessive. The occasional excess is all part of living the moderate life."
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1980 CB650c- (sold) Delilah
1973 CL350- Lola?
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Offline scottly

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #331 on: April 14, 2010, 10:24:05 pm »
Next time you bump start, put it in second. I had a BSA 441 Victor that would lock up the back wheel if I tried to bump start it in 1st; even in 2nd, I had to bounce, with all my mighty 130 lbs (at the time), on the seat at the exact same time I popped the clutch, just to get the motor to spin...
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Offline scunny

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #332 on: April 14, 2010, 10:24:30 pm »
I don't think it's a charging issue.
three options: 1.. bad connectivity across the large contacts in the solenoid
                     2.. high resistance in the starter.
                     3.. high resistance in the cables
mine will hardly turn over when it happens, but won't do it when I'm in a position to test things. might have to get a book and look at ease like Kit while waiting the 10 minutes. on a side note, I can push start mine when it's like this.
    
past-cb100,ts250,cb500,cb500,gs1000,gs650g.phillips traveller
present-CB 650 retro
            VTR1000F3
           XL250S riverbed rocket
           TS250[sold]
           TS185[sold]
           XL125S[sold]
           MT50 (white)
           MT50 (red)[sold]
           KN250/XS400 project
           XR/XL250 bitsa under construction
           SL100[sold]
           XL250R
           pedal(pub bike) leaks oil
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Offline scottly

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #333 on: April 14, 2010, 10:30:42 pm »
Instead of a book, grab a voltmeter and start making measurements!!!
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Offline Frankenkit

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #334 on: April 14, 2010, 10:32:22 pm »
yeaaaah, that's why the multimeter is in my saddlebag now.  ::)

I learn.  It takes awhile sometimes, but it does happen. :D
"Moderation in all things - especially moderation. Too much moderation is excessive. The occasional excess is all part of living the moderate life."
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1980 CB650c- (sold) Delilah
1973 CL350- Lola?
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Offline Hush

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #335 on: April 14, 2010, 10:36:23 pm »
Always crash (bump) start in 2nd, as 1st is way too high a gear to turn the motor over.
If you can arc a screwdriver across the poles of the solenoid when it does this you can rule out a heap of things Kit.
If it does start OK with the screwdriver trick it rules out starter button/battery/charging unit etc.
Fingers crossed "Blondie" doesn't get a relapse of this virus, she's been as good as gold since I changed her rotor. :(
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline scottly

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #336 on: April 14, 2010, 10:37:21 pm »
Forgive my ignorance; I jumped into this thread thinking it was a rotor-brush related charging issue, like with the early DOHCs. Maybe I was wrong???
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Offline Frankenkit

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #337 on: April 14, 2010, 10:38:28 pm »
that'd be a helluva thing, wouldn't it?  bringing along a big old insulated screwdriver to start the bike in a pinch?
"Moderation in all things - especially moderation. Too much moderation is excessive. The occasional excess is all part of living the moderate life."
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1980 CB650c- (sold) Delilah
1973 CL350- Lola?
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Offline Frankenkit

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #338 on: April 14, 2010, 10:39:03 pm »
scottly, you could still be right- or it could be the rotor.  it has the same rotor/stator as the dohc750, 900 and gl1100.
"Moderation in all things - especially moderation. Too much moderation is excessive. The occasional excess is all part of living the moderate life."
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1980 CB650c- (sold) Delilah
1973 CL350- Lola?
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Offline scottly

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #339 on: April 14, 2010, 10:43:13 pm »
Measure your battery volts, while cranking the motor, when you are having the problem: that should tell us something...
scunny; love your avatar!!!
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Offline scunny

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #340 on: April 14, 2010, 10:57:22 pm »
If this was easy it wouldn't be a problem. hardest thing is it's an intermittent fault, and seems to have more than one issue causing it.
I'd give my left testicle for an amp gauge to measure the starter draw
past-cb100,ts250,cb500,cb500,gs1000,gs650g.phillips traveller
present-CB 650 retro
            VTR1000F3
           XL250S riverbed rocket
           TS250[sold]
           TS185[sold]
           XL125S[sold]
           MT50 (white)
           MT50 (red)[sold]
           KN250/XS400 project
           XR/XL250 bitsa under construction
           SL100[sold]
           XL250R
           pedal(pub bike) leaks oil
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #341 on: April 14, 2010, 11:04:39 pm »
Use a higher gear for bump starting, rather than first.  You just need the motor to spin, it doesn't have to spin fast.  When it catches just be in the seat and/or have your hand on the clutch lever to pull in immediately.
I can bump start my 700SC by just straddling the bike from the seat, walk it forward a few feet to build some momentum, and pop the clutch.  Varoom.

You really need to track down the cause of that 25 ohm reading, though.  That is certainly causal to poor battery charging.

Can you solder, or know the principles of creating a good solder joint?
Could be that the solder you filed down, left the material too thin.  Then, fatigue from vibration and heat cycles created a crack or open air that join.  Another possibility has to do with the physical connection. The wire should be coated with a thin insulation.  This must be skinned back to expose the metal core of the wire.  I've seen wire that were not skinned back far enough or not at all.  At a bubble of solder made a good connection by connecting to the very end of the wire.  If the solder "bubble" was filed off the end, then the remaining wire insulation prevents or reduces electrical contact, even though the solder is snuggled up right next to it.  These things are sometimes hard to see with the naked eye.  And, optical magnification is need to see the problem.  Or, the wire is extracted, skinned, tinned, and re-soldered to the cleaned terminal.  Bear in mind I haven't seen a CB650 rotor, and don't know the specific arrangement.  But, I have seen many similar devices, motors, generators, alternators that use similar connection techniques.  Higher resistance reading are frequently attributed to bad, poor, or "cold" solder joints.

Then again, you may have simply accumulated a glaze over the slip ring surface.  You should also check the area for oil contamination, which may have burned an insulative glaze onto the slip rings.


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Offline scottly

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #342 on: April 14, 2010, 11:06:15 pm »
Uh, just thinking out loud here: is there a possible problem with the Ignition system of these bikes when hot?? I assume (yeah, I know that can bite one on the ass!) that they are also different from the SOHCs? as in electronic? And if the battery voltage drops during cranking, they just don't do the job???? If that is a possibility, I would carry a spare plug, and check for spark while waiting for things to cool off...  
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Offline scottly

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #343 on: April 14, 2010, 11:16:49 pm »
If this was easy it wouldn't be a problem. hardest thing is it's an intermittent fault, and seems to have more than one issue causing it.
I'd give my left testicle for an amp gauge to measure the starter draw

(stifling a laugh here; there have been times I would have paid to get rid of my left nut, but that's a different story!) Check around for an inductive amp-meter, also called an amp-clamp. Doubt if they have Harbor-Freight in NZ..... Intermittents are the WORST to troubleshoot!!!     
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Offline scunny

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #344 on: April 14, 2010, 11:26:36 pm »
I've got an inductive clamp meter but it only reads ac, teach me for being cheap
past-cb100,ts250,cb500,cb500,gs1000,gs650g.phillips traveller
present-CB 650 retro
            VTR1000F3
           XL250S riverbed rocket
           TS250[sold]
           TS185[sold]
           XL125S[sold]
           MT50 (white)
           MT50 (red)[sold]
           KN250/XS400 project
           XR/XL250 bitsa under construction
           SL100[sold]
           XL250R
           pedal(pub bike) leaks oil
my gallery http://gallery.sohc4.net/members/personal/scunny

Offline London Dock

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #345 on: April 14, 2010, 11:27:07 pm »
Kit, charging issues after replacing all those parts? That's a shame.

I had a similar issue last year (CB650 Standard) and my non-charging was due to a poorly adjusted rear brake pedal. This was performed when the bike was initially inspected. Only after buying this voltmeter for a ride along did I realize that the rear brake switch was being stuck on (some of the time, but not ALL of the time...), and by pulling up the brake pedal with my toe the voltage shot up from 12.6 and lower to 13.5. Quick flick of the positioning nut fixed it.

I did replace my rotor before all this, as it's R=2.0 ohms at the sliprings was my first concern when this started happening.

Just a thought...check it out!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #346 on: April 14, 2010, 11:32:30 pm »
If this was easy it wouldn't be a problem. hardest thing is it's an intermittent fault, and seems to have more than one issue causing it.
I'd give my left testicle for an amp gauge to measure the starter draw

Even at my age, I value my testicles more than $19.99.

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Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline scunny

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #347 on: April 14, 2010, 11:43:18 pm »
hahaha, thought they would be worth more than that, there goes my new found career as an organ donor.
past-cb100,ts250,cb500,cb500,gs1000,gs650g.phillips traveller
present-CB 650 retro
            VTR1000F3
           XL250S riverbed rocket
           TS250[sold]
           TS185[sold]
           XL125S[sold]
           MT50 (white)
           MT50 (red)[sold]
           KN250/XS400 project
           XR/XL250 bitsa under construction
           SL100[sold]
           XL250R
           pedal(pub bike) leaks oil
my gallery http://gallery.sohc4.net/members/personal/scunny

Offline TwoTired

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #348 on: April 14, 2010, 11:51:11 pm »
hahaha, thought they would be worth more than that, there goes my new found career as an organ donor.
You CAN pay more.  But, even $60 is not enough for me to part with a testicle.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=91129

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72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline MickeyX

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Re: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'
« Reply #349 on: April 15, 2010, 12:41:04 am »
If I don't get called into work early tomorrow, I'll try to get out to the garage and pull the cover off while Kit's in class. I'll get a good look at that solder spot we worked on and see if it looks buggered. (it was big glop but didn't look like a cold joint. It's worth revisiting though.) I'll just go ahead a clean it up and resolder it if it looks wonky. I'll check the slip rings separate from the wires too and maybe polish them up a bit. We did that the last time too as I recall. They looked "sooty" for lack of a better word. Kinda glazed after not too many miles. Since Kit had also cleaned up the solder spot at the same time, we weren't sure which did the trick. Maybe a bit of both. If I have time, I'll take it out for a nice warm up on the highway. That's fun anyway.  ;D

Anything else while I'm there?
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