Author Topic: where is my friggin bailout!?  (Read 5245 times)

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Offline heffay

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where is my friggin bailout!?
« on: December 06, 2008, 12:20:46 PM »
50,000 in combined debt... about 6k for credit and the rest are student loans.

i am making all my payments, barely... student loans are right at 500 per month (basically, my half of rent all over again, every month).   :o  tack this onto exorbitant fuel costs and an insane cost of living and i am pretty well strapped.

now i see that the US auto industry is gaining support for a bailout... on top of this, their gonna take the money from a fuel efficiency research program!!  lets bail the asshats out so that we can buy more of their gas guzzling pieces of crap!

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/12/05/big.three.bailout/index.html
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Offline SD750F

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Re: where is my friggin bailout!?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2008, 12:40:40 PM »
No Problem! The US Government has issued a simple one page form for all seeking a bailout to use. I have attached a copy in case you would like to apply.

Scott

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: where is my friggin bailout!?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2008, 12:49:19 PM »
Good one Scott.  ;D
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline heffay

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Re: where is my friggin bailout!?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2008, 01:02:29 PM »
  lets bail the asshats out so that we can buy more of their gas guzzling pieces of crap!


just so we know where i'm coming from...

my work truck:  '03 dodge 2500 hemi power'd
                      average highway mileage never tops 15, average 4x4 mileage never tops 8
                      a rod grenaded at 49,700 miles... required a new shortblock and a few more hundred pounds of parts
Today: '73 cb350f, '96 Ducati 900 Supersport
Past Rides: '72 tc125, '94 cbr600f2, '76 rd400, '89 ex500, '93 KTM-125exc, '92 zx7r, '93 Banshee, '83 ATC250R, 77/75 cb400f

Offline heffay

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Re: where is my friggin bailout!?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2008, 01:04:20 PM »
for those that have no idea who i am... i would never buy such a vehicle... it is a temporary donation from a longstanding remodel client. 
Today: '73 cb350f, '96 Ducati 900 Supersport
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Offline Venturous

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Re: where is my friggin bailout!?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2008, 01:09:06 PM »
If you agree there should be no more corporate bailouts, posting on forums is great, but here is what you
really need to do and do it often...

https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

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Offline heffay

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Re: where is my friggin bailout!?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2008, 01:41:48 PM »
great post... thanks venturous!
Today: '73 cb350f, '96 Ducati 900 Supersport
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Offline Really?

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Re: where is my friggin bailout!?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2008, 05:13:35 PM »
I agree, bail me out.  I am still paying on a student loan from the early 90's and I do not even do what I went to school for.  Got about another 6 years to go.
I don't have a motorcycle, sold it ('85 Yamaha Venture Royale).  Haven't had a CB750 for over 40 years.

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Offline 333

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Re: where is my friggin bailout!?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2008, 07:27:52 PM »
This is not aimed at you, Heffay, but to everyone who bought one of those "gas guzzlers", and is pissed about it.

What size gun was used to make you buy that thing in the first place?  Did one of the Big 3 kidnap one of your kids, knowing you needed to buy a car and say "if you ever want to see little Mary again, you'll forget the Japanese brands or one of the many gas efficient models we offer(both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than Toyota or Honda) and buy on of our gargantuan monstrosities.  And be happy about it, too."  I doubt it.

None of the Big 3 would be in business for 5 minutes if they were forcing us to buy anything.  Face it, we wanted those monsters.  They did plenty of market research to determine what we wanted to buy.  It's the American way.  "Bigger is better".  "Large and in charge".

And while I'm on my soapbox, let's talk about the Japanese auto makers.  Transplants as CNN called them last week.  It was a story about the Japanese that have opened auto plants here in the U.S..  Specifically about how the states where Toyota, Nissan, and Honda has opened plants have given them hundreds of millions, for EACH PLANT, in tax credits, just to lure them to set these plants in their states.  And continue to give them tax credits to stay.  Currently, only one Big 3 plant gets any tax credit.  That is one Saturn plant.  And it gets almost half of what any of the transplants get.  It would be my guess that it's because it's the only Big 3 plant built since states have begun this tax credit thing.

It did surprise me that CNN ran this story at all, but it's no surprise that they're not running it more or referring to it more.  It seems more popular to bash the Big 3 than to try to save them.  Too many people burned on a bad car.  And while I opened that door, let me just say that, yes, the Big 3 have had quality issues in the past.  According to industry sources, Chrysler still does.  But for the most part, they have been making a good product again for about 8 to 10 years.  But it's no surprise to me that they can't catch up, between the bad reputation, and the tax breaks the transplants get.  That and the UAW, with things like the job bank thing.  No surprise that they lose 2k on every car they sell.

I'll end this rant on a patriotic note.  Letting the Big 3 fade away is literally letting the last of heavy industry leave this country.  The same heavy industry that pulled our fat out of the fire in WWI and II.  How can we do that?  When 9/11 happened, we jumped behind a war that turned out to be wrong, lost track of the ones that truly attacked us and went another way, blinded by patriotism.  Rushed by a sense of revenge.  This time, with something that could have much more dire consequences than 9/11, we are taking our good old fashioned time. WTF?

Rant over.  My fingers are tired.

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Offline DRam

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Re: where is my friggin bailout!?
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2008, 09:54:30 PM »
333, you just wrote what I'd like to, but much better.  Thanks.

For those who whine about American manufactures making nothing but SUV's:  all four American manufacturers tried the small car approach in the sixties.  They tanked.  Everybody wanted bigger, faster, fancier.  So the Falcon, F-85, Skylark, Valiant, Comet, Corvair, etc. either morphed bigger, turned into muscle cars, or disappeared.   The only people to blame for our present abundance of road-going battleships is ourselves. 

And, yes, there were four U.S manufacturers in the early sixties.  American Motors was there at the time.  Well, five.  Studebaker was still alive in the early sixties.  They made some of the nicest looking cars of all time.

Offline oldbiker

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Re: where is my friggin bailout!?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2008, 12:52:55 AM »
Guy, you're not alone. Here in the UK. I remember Norton,Vincent,Triumph,BSA,Royal Enfield,Ariel,Velocette,Francis Barnet and other bikes.
Also Triumph, Humber, Hillman, Standard, Morris, Austin and other cars.
In our case all these were killed by the Unions excessive demands so that now we can only buy foreign cars and bikes with the exception of a patriotic guy who bought and set up the new Triumph bike factory.

Beware!
« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 12:59:36 AM by oldbiker »

Offline heffay

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Re: where is my friggin bailout!?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2008, 07:10:50 AM »
did you know that many union line workers at our factories make 70 dollars per hour!?!?!?

here's my take on where Chrysler went wrong: (excerpted from the Lee Iacocca wiki page)

Career at Ford

Iacocca joined Ford Motor Company in 1946 and after a brief stint on engineering, he quickly asked to be moved to sales and marketing where his career flourished. While working in a local district for sales, Iacocca gained national recognition in 1956 with his "56 for 56" campaign, offering $56 monthly payment loans for 1956 model year cars. His campaign went national and Iacocca was called to Dearborn where he quickly moved through the ranks to become President of the Ford Division on his 40th birthday, October 15, 1964.

Iacocca was involved with the design of several successful Ford automobiles, most notably the Ford Mustang. Also, he was responsible for the Lincoln Continental Mark III, the Ford Fiesta and the revival of the Mercury brand in the late 1960s, including the introduction of the Mercury Cougar and Mercury Marquis. He was also the "moving force," as one court put it, behind the notorious Ford Pinto.[2] He promoted other ideas which did not reach the marketplace as Ford products. These included cars ultimately introduced by Chrysler- the K car and the minivan. Eventually, he became the president of the Ford Motor Company, but he clashed with Henry Ford II and ultimately, in 1978, was fired by Ford, despite the company posting a $2 billion profit for the year.

[edit] Career at Chrysler

After being fired at Ford, Lee was aggressively courted by the Chrysler Corporation, which was on the verge of going out of business (at the time, the company was losing millions, largely due to recalls of the company's Dodge Aspen and Plymouth Volare, cars that Iacocca would later claim should never have been built). Iacocca joined Chrysler and began rebuilding the entire company from the ground up, laying off many workers, selling Chrysler's loss-making European division to Peugeot, and bringing in many former associates from his former company. Also from Ford, Iacocca brought to Chrysler the "Mini-Max" project which, in 1983, bore fruit in the wildly successful Dodge Caravan and Plymouth Voyager. Interestingly, Henry Ford II had wanted nothing to do with the Mini-Max, which doomed the project at Ford. Hal Sperlich, the driving force behind the Mini-Max at Ford had been fired a few months before Iacocca and was waiting for him at Chrysler, where the two would make automotive history.

Iacocca arrived shortly after the introduction of the subcompact Dodge Omni and Plymouth Horizon. The front-wheel drive Omni and Horizon became instant hits, selling over 300,000 units each in their debut year, showing what was to come for Chrysler. Ironically, the Omni and Horizon had been designed alongside the Chrysler Horizon with much input from the European division of the company, which Iacocca axed in 1978.

Realizing that the company would go out of business if it did not receive a significant amount of money to turn the company around, Iacocca approached the United States Congress in 1979 and asked for a loan guarantee. While it is sometimes said that Congress lent Chrysler the money, it, in fact, only guaranteed the loans. Most thought this was an unprecedented move, but Iacocca pointed to the government bailouts of the airline and railroad industries, arguing that more jobs were at stake in Chrysler's possible demise. In the end, though the decision was controversial, Iacocca received the loan guarantee from the government.

After receiving this reprieve, Chrysler released the first of the K-Car line, the Dodge Aries and Plymouth Reliant, in 1981. Like the minivan which would come later, these compact automobiles were based on design proposals that Ford had rejected during Iacocca's (and Sperlich's) tenure there. Coming right after the oil crisis of the 1970s, these small, efficient and inexpensive, front-wheel drive cars sold rapidly.

As mentioned previously, Chrysler introduced the minivan, which was by and large Sperlich's "baby," in the fall of 1983. Twenty-five years later, Chrysler continues to lead the automobile industry in minivan sales[citation needed]. Because of the K-cars and minivans, along with the reforms Iacocca implemented, the company turned around quickly and was able to repay the government-backed loans seven years earlier than expected.

Iacocca was also responsible for Chrysler's acquisition of AMC in 1987, which brought the profitable Jeep division under Chrysler's corporate umbrella. It also created the short-lived Eagle division, formed from the remnants of AMC. By this time, AMC had already finished most of the work with the Jeep Grand Cherokee, which Iacocca desperately wanted. The Grand Cherokee would not be released until 1992 for the 1993 model year, at which time Iacocca left Chrysler.

Throughout the 1980s, Iacocca appeared in a series of commercials for the company's vehicles, using the ad campaign "The pride is back" to denote the turnaround of the corporation, while also telling buyers a phrase that later became his trademark: "If you can find a better car, buy it."





the "automotive history" was where they took a car company focused on luxury and the type of cars we're discussing right now and turned it into a company focused on cheap, flukey gizmo infested, CRAP.
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Re: where is my friggin bailout!?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2008, 07:11:56 AM »
333,
I was intrigued by what you wrote when you said that only one of the American Big 3 gets tax credits from the state(s) whilst the Japanese marque factories are readily given tax credits.
Now, over the years I have read articles in the about the big 3 being heavily unionised. Is this still true? Would it be also true that Japanese factories have very little union representation?
I just wonder if the state is "punishing" the unions in the big 3?

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: where is my friggin bailout!?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2008, 07:28:25 AM »
Quote
Would it be also true that Japanese factories have very little union representation?

Yes, but the UAW is trying hard to change this.
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Offline tramp

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Re: where is my friggin bailout!?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2008, 07:33:41 AM »
all the cars are just about the same now for fuel economy and the what not
cars, all cars cost to much and peoples credit is all tapped out
get us some jobs we'll make money and buy things
no job no money no buy
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Offline heffay

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Re: where is my friggin bailout!?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2008, 07:39:25 AM »
all the cars are just about the same now for fuel economy and the what not


you mean cars as compared to other cars in their respective classes, right?

because, a brand spankin new dodge challenger does not get the same mileage as a prius... not to say that i wouldn't really really really want the challenger... but, i'd probably settle for the prius.
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Offline Glenn Stauffer

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Re: where is my friggin bailout!?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2008, 09:31:22 AM »
did you know that many union line workers at our factories make 70 dollars per hour!?!?!?

That figure is questionable.  My understanding is that the figure is derived by taking the total amount paid in salary and benefits and dividing by the number of assembly workers.  Included in that figure is the amount the auto companies pay toward health care and retirement benefits for retired workers.   I've seen wage figures closer to $28/hour for assembly line workers.  But, when you take into account the costs to support something like 440,000 retired members and dependent spouses, that leads to the $73/hour for every worker - some 180,000 from what I read on portfolio.com.

Toyota and Honda have very different wage and benefit structures and their total expenses in the US come out closer to $48/hour.  I read that the Honda workers in Greensburg, Indiana were paid about $15/hour in 2007.  Toyota was paying an average of $26/hour at the plant in Princeton, Indiana and Honda was paying a top wage of $24/hour at Marysville, Ohio.

What is really interesting is the makeup of the top leadership at the auto makers.

GM - Rick Wagoner; salary $14.4 million; Harvard MBA; came up through the ranks on the financial side of operations.

Ford - Alan Mulally; salary $21.7 million; masters degree from MIT; started his career as an engineer at Boeing, came to Ford in 2006 after being passed over twice for the CEO position at Boeing.

Chrysler - Robert Nardelli; total compensation not disclosed; started as an engineer at GE, rose to CEO of GE Power Systems; after being passed over to replace Jack Welch as GE CEO, he became CEO of Home Depot in 2000 and then Chrysler in 2007.

Toyota - Katsuaki Watanabe; salary $900,000; joined Toyota in 1964 after graduating from Tokyo's Keio University with a degree in economics; worked primarily in Toyota's planning and administrative areas before becoming CEO in 2005.

Honda - Takeo Fukui; salary not disclosed, though Honda's total compensation for the top 26 executives was $8.27 million in 2006; has a degree in applied chemisty; joined Honda in 1969 as an engineer working on Honda CVCC engine. Held engineering and management positions in the R&D, Motorcycle, Racing, and American manufacturing divisions before becoming CEO in 2003.

This chart paints an interesting picture of the differences between the 5 big auto companies in the US - GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, and Honda:

http://bigthreeauto.procon.org/#Chart



Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: where is my friggin bailout!?
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2008, 12:28:44 PM »
Glenn's take on the $70/hr figure is correct. It's a combined "all compensation" figure.
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Offline 333

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Re: where is my friggin bailout!?
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2008, 01:18:32 PM »
You beat me to the punch on the line worker wages, Glenn.  But I did not know about the huge difference between the U.S. and transplant CEO's pay.  Of course, the proposal put forth by the Big 3 drops their yearly pay to $1.00!!!

If and when this crisis is over, I'd like to see a more reasonable pay for these CEOs.  No one who has a constant job needs to make 14.4 million, much less than 21 million.  And by constant job, I mean year after year employed.  Athlete's shouldn't be held to the same standards, as they have a shorter working life.  Although, some do get too much, but that's another thread altogether.  Movie stars also don't need restrictions, because who knows when the next movie deal will come.  And it is rare that a movie with one of those big stars doesn't make money.  It was reported today that a large movie theater chain said that despite the hard times, people are going to the movies a bit more than normal.  Go figure.
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Offline heffay

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Re: where is my friggin bailout!?
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2008, 01:32:33 PM »
Glenn's take on the $70/hr figure is correct. It's a combined "all compensation" figure.
ok... still WAY more than i make.

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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: where is my friggin bailout!?
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2008, 01:57:29 PM »
Glenn's take on the $70/hr figure is correct. It's a combined "all compensation" figure.
ok... still WAY more than i make.



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Offline 333

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Re: where is my friggin bailout!?
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2008, 04:40:32 PM »
Bet ya I make less than either of you.  I haven't worked in over 4 years.  I managed to get work on Saturdays over the summer, but that's over.
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Offline Johnie

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Re: where is my friggin bailout!?
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2008, 06:00:04 PM »
They will get their bailout money.  Experts say that if the automakers declare bankruptcy, then the country will for sure go from recession to depression.  That would be real bad for all of us.  Not that I am in favor of bailing out every business at the expense of us taxpayers, but I would sure hate to see us get into a depression.  CEO's are paid way to much to keep the company solvent, and look what they did to the automakers.
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Offline City Boy

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Re: where is my friggin bailout!?
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2008, 06:13:35 PM »
Certainly some conditions should be put in place as part of any help given to the Detroit 3.However,I think the lawmakers in the U.S. and here in Canada would be out  to lunch if they deny help,though it appears now they will make a deal.The inmates that run the asylums both north and south of the 49th must shoulder a large part of the blame for the critical condition manufacturing is facing,separate from the financial deck of cards.Who in their right mind would sign trade deals with countries having standards of living far below ours,without some kind of safeguards built in that only allow full implementation after standards rise in those countries.The original trade deal that President Reagan and Prime Minister Mulroney signed has been mutually beneficial to both the U.S and Canadian economies because we have similar standards of living.The problem started when Mexico was brought into the deal.China has just exasperated the situation.
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Offline sparty

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Re: where is my friggin bailout!?
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2008, 06:36:45 PM »
Just something to ponder here.

When the US Steel Industry suffered its crisis they were not asking our government for a huge bailout, they asked for simple economic protection in the form of a tariff because as the Asian steel industry was tanking due to low demand, they dumped their steel in the US at anywhere from 30 to 50% less of US steel costs.  And the Big 3 auto makers jumped on that train and bought their steel from overseas.  Did the Big 3 care about the lost jobs of those steel workers, the many steel companies that went under, or how it would impact our economy?  No, they were concerned about profits and huge ones at that.

I don't want the Big 3 to go under.  But their business philosophy stinks.  They don't care about:  the consumer (3 yr. warranty - come on!), the environment (they make it seem like they do, but US cars are highly inefficient), their workers (that is why they unionized in the first place!).

IMO if the government decides on a bail out, the Big 3 need to be required to re-write their business plans to align them with long-term profitability - which may mean, reducing their product lines, reduce their multi-billion dollar ad campaigns, cut executive salaries and BONUSES, produce vehicles that are highly fuel efficient (30 MPGs highway is a joke), bring home (back to the US) plants that are over the border, buy US made steel and parts (which will create more US businesses and JOBS).

Otherwise, they will be looking for another bailout in the future.

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