Author Topic: Dumb question  (Read 1672 times)

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Offline OakBehringer

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Dumb question
« on: December 15, 2008, 07:19:59 PM »
What's a "tank slapper" i.e. something you don't want to happen when you're riding.
1974 350 Four - SOLD
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Offline OakBehringer

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Re: Dumb question
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2008, 07:27:22 PM »
YouTube helped me solve this mystery. Nevermind!
1974 350 Four - SOLD
1966 CL160
1981 XS650
1972 CT70

Finished CB350F

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Offline MCRider

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Re: Dumb question
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2008, 07:33:08 PM »
YouTube helped me solve this mystery. Nevermind!
Explanation on Wickipedia. Collapsing the front suspension under brake load, then with a bump will do it, did it to me. Many ways for it to happen, here's one: When you run out of suspension and force is still being applied (either braking or bumps) the force travels laterally causing the front end to slap side to side, all the way to the stops is possible, and deposit you on the ground in a heap.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_dynamics
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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
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Offline OakBehringer

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Re: Dumb question
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2008, 07:38:32 PM »
That is terrifying... almost as terrifying and the new Guns 'n Roses album.
1974 350 Four - SOLD
1966 CL160
1981 XS650
1972 CT70

Finished CB350F

HELLS BANANAS

Offline Spikeybike

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Re: Dumb question
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2008, 07:46:44 PM »
That is terrifying... almost as terrifying and the new Guns 'n Roses album.

wow thats saying alot

Offline Dunk

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Re: Dumb question
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2008, 08:12:54 PM »
the force travels laterally causing the front end to slap side to side, all the way to the stops is possible, and deposit you on the ground in a heap.

Been there, done that, got the scars to show for it. Rode a tank slapper out once at lower speeds but got into one at highway speed and ended up unceremoniously on the ground. It's probably the most scary thing that can happen to you on a bike. Keep your bike meticulously maintained and you're well on your way to avoiding one...

For all the times I've ripped through the twisties at high speed throwing sparks and scraping pegs the tank slapper that put me on the ground was due to lack of maintenance and happened while cruising along the highway nice and easy. Regardless, I now leave the crazy stunts for the dirt, at least it's relatively soft when you come down.

Offline Hush

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Re: Dumb question
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2008, 08:23:02 PM »
Would this then be a mechanical failure?
Like seals leaking!
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline Really?

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Re: Dumb question
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2008, 09:30:15 PM »
Prolly more like a bad tire internally, uneven tread, maybe over sensitive front end bent rim, loose spokes, bad steering head bearings...  Leaky seals will prolly give you a bad ride, bottoming and if one seal is leaking bad, it may feel like it is pulling to one side.

Edit: Almost forgot, all the damn bolts coming loose on the front end.  How I could almost forget that, I will never know.  I had a tank slapper on on 72 H2 right after I bought it (about 300 yards on the San Diego Freeway), damn bolts came loose.  It locked the front end into the tank and threw me off at about 70mph.  I bent the bars back the next morning and rode it.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 09:33:25 PM by GigaWhiskey »
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Dumb question
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2008, 10:04:55 PM »
The best way to avoid tank slappers is to fit a steering damper. Also tank slappers aren't always caused by braking, some bikes have a point where they seem to kind of oscillate {like a ceiling fan that vibrates on say position 2 on the speed controller and at no other setting}.I once had a CB 900 Boldor and it started a slow wobble at about 170 KMH {just over the imperial ton} and would get into a tank slapper if you kept the throttle open, ended up being mismatched tyres. Scary stuff .... :o


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Offline HondanutRider

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Re: Dumb question
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2008, 06:18:36 AM »
"Tank slappers" are usually associated with severe "speed wobbles".  A speed wobble occurs at high speeds when the gyroscopic forces of the two wheels become unbalanced and cause the motorcycle to oscillate/wobble from side to side.  This isn't what you want!  With severe oscillations the front wheel may bang from stop to stop, hence the name "tank slapper".  As mentioned before, many things can cause this unsettling condition to occur - but it usually is brought on by excess speed.  I hadn't heard of it occurring under severe braking, although what was originally described sounded like a "high-side" crash, which would occur when the front tire locks and yanks the wheel over to the stop, pitching the rider off the "high side".  High-sided crashes usually occur when a turn is also involved.

Back to speed wobbles:  They are very scary and potentially dangerous.  Their main cause is an imbalance which can be the result of one of many things - wheels, tires, bent forks (front or rear) alignment, or even wind pressure at high speed.  As I said, the condition is usually initiated at high speeds and it will often start slowly (but not always) as the wobble progresses to a full "tank slapper" (if you are still holding on and upright).  If a speed wobble does start to occur, no amount of force can "hold" the bars in a straight line - trust me, I know.  That means you can not hold the bars in a straight line no matter how hard you try, and also no damper is that strong!  You also do not want to make any sudden alteration or force to the moving vehicle - e.g. braking or quickly rolling off the throttle, as this will just make the wobble worse, likely immediately causing a "tank slapper".  What you are advised to do is gently ease off the throttle while riding out the wobble as the speed decreases to the point of stability again.  (Once this stability returns, you probably want to come to a complete stop so that you can go "wipe yourself".)

I have a 1962 CB77 that always developed a speed wobble at about 85-90 mph.  I never dumped it but I had to wipe myself several times as I tried to diagnose and cure the source of the problem.  My rear swing arm had a kink in it from the PO, which I had tried to re-align.  Finally, after about 40 years of my analysis/procrastination, I replaced this swing arm with another, and the bike seems to track much better now - except I haven't had the nerve to do a complete retest of the situation.  My front forks also seem a little "tweaked" so I don't know if it really is lining-up correctly yet.

One final word about "speed wobbles":  Everything I've said so far applies to the street and should ideally be avoided for safety.  However, on the track other conditions occur and apply.  Race bikes today (and a lot of super sport "street bikes" are really the same) have very quick steering response, made possible by their front-end setups and steering geometries. They turn into corners with a slight flick and immediately snap to a lean - great for high-speed track negotiation, but usually referred-to as being "twitchy".  When going fast, these bikes may hit slight track irregularities or get going up a slight incline at speed so that more down force is exerted on the front wheel, causing it to "twitch" or wobble.  This is also called a "speed wobble", and the correct cure for it - on the track - is to apply more throttle and speed up.  This "unloads" the front wheel momentarily, allowing it to stabilize again.  If the brakes were applied, besides losing racing time, the front would load more and the condition worsen - likely leading to a "tank slapper" and a "high side".  Race bikes (and a lot of today's sport bikes in general) are able to accelerate in these conditions, because of the immense power they are capable of generating - but on the street you are probably already going way too fast if this condition occurs.  Besides, a lot of bikes riding the street don't have any more reserve of power to apply at these speeds so as to unload the front.

Sorry for the long rant, but this is safety subject that is a hot-button of mine.  (There are no "dumb questions", especially ones involving safety.)

Offline MCRider

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Re: Dumb question
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2008, 06:29:32 AM »
My near death tank slapper wasn't specifically from braking, though that can be a contributor. AS we have discussed the origin of the wobble can be many things. But the physics of force distribution is often the same. In mine I was travelling in a straight line about 60 miles per hour on the interstate. I hit a chuck hole which completely consumed my front tire, about 6 inches deep, 30 inches long in the direction of travel, about 8 inshce wide. When the tire hit the exit side of the hole my front suspension was completely used up, and the remaining force was directed side to side in a tank slapper. The first was to the left and the ckutch lever broke my pinky finger and the clutch lever off at the base. Take your clutch lever and hit your finger hard enough to break your finger all the way through AND break the lever. Pretty powrful stuff, by then it had wrenched the bars from my hands and we actually went down low-side...pretty hard. Full riding gear minimized the remaining injuries but had a vehicle been following me too close...

Anyway. the same thing could happen if under braking the suspension is used up and then you hit a smaller bump than I did, etc.  On the HawkGT site, the Hawk front end is known for this tendency, rather primitive in its damping ability and cartridge emulators virtually eliminate this tendency for TS. Mine now has them. I think I would have handled that hole OK with the emulators.

As to steering dampers, yes they are good and often required by racing sanctions. But I would say make sure everything else checks out first, or just adding a damper is masking the problem.

PS: I should hasten to add, it wasn't all the bikes fault. I was wearing sunglasses and a tinted shield and it was early on a Sunday morning (hence the light traffic) but the shadows were long across the highway from the trees. In retrospect, it was worse than riding at night with a headlight. I should have seen the hole and missed it by a mile.  I just flat didn't see it.  >:(
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 06:46:51 AM by MCRider »
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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline Really?

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Re: Dumb question
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2008, 09:34:16 AM »
Back to speed wobbles:  They are very scary and potentially dangerous.  Their main cause is an imbalance which can be the result of one of many things - wheels, tires, bent forks (front or rear) alignment, or even wind pressure at high speed.  As I said, the condition is usually initiated at high speeds and it will often start slowly (but not always) as the wobble progresses to a full "tank slapper" (if you are still holding on and upright).  If a speed wobble does start to occur, no amount of force can "hold" the bars in a straight line - trust me, I know.  That means you can not hold the bars in a straight line no matter how hard you try, and also no damper is that strong!  You also do not want to make any sudden alteration or force to the moving vehicle - e.g. braking or quickly rolling off the throttle, as this will just make the wobble worse, likely immediately causing a "tank slapper".  What you are advised to do is gently ease off the throttle while riding out the wobble as the speed decreases to the point of stability again.  (Once this stability returns, you probably want to come to a complete stop so that you can go "wipe yourself".)

That was me, got on the freeway (straight line), rolled the throttle back, started the wobbles about 80 and the last tank slap tossed me at about 70. 

Right before I bought the bike, I noticed the bars and wheel were not in line.  I said something, I saw them try to fix it (loosed bolts, twisted the bars with thier hands while holding the wheel between thier legs), shortly after it happened.  Found the loose bolts in the morning.

It was so sad to see the sparks come off the bike as it was sliding and I was tumbling.

You are right, there was NO stopping it.

At the time I was maybe 15 or 16 years old.  Prolly more like 15.
I don't have a motorcycle, sold it ('85 Yamaha Venture Royale).  Haven't had a CB750 for over 40 years.

The Wife's Bike - 750K5
The Kid's Bike - 750K3

Offline ieism

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Re: Dumb question
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2008, 12:16:08 PM »
A tankslapper is when you forget to take the disklock of your frontbrake and take off at full speed thus hitting the tank with your nuts at great velocity. Not only will it bring tears to your eyes, you'll also have to replace both the lock and the frontbrake.
On more modern bikes, the physical concequences are often more serious, that's why they call those bikes "crotch rockets".

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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Dumb question
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2008, 02:46:20 PM »
I have a friend who had as one of his first bikes a GT 500 suzuki, the first time i rode it i got into a really bad tank slapper {bruised both thumbs} while braking, i later found the steering head was not tight and after tightening it up the problem was solved.

Mick
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.