Topic: Sitting in with a big band...

[Burke]

I had a chance to sit in with a Big Band last week (on guitar). Wow..was I not prepared . My counting need alot of work.

Also how do the jazz greats voice on the fly when presened with a lead sheet ?? Or is that what "it" is in jazz? Knowing it and letting it fly.
Man...do I have a lot to learn.

If there are any jazz guys out there, your input would be appreciated.

[mmtsquid]

I'm not a guitar guy (saxophone), but there are 2 ways to do it.
1 - be a theory monster and understand the "rules" of improvisation.
or
2 - have an ear blessed by the almighty and just be able to hear what's happening and respond without thinking at all.

I am neither.

[DammitDan]

I worked at a recording studio in Nashville and had the opportunity to watch the session players create a lead sheet from the demo (just a rough recording of the songwriter singing and playing guitar).  The keyboardist sat listening to the track in the control room with everyone else, laughing and joking and talking while he was writing down the chord progressions.  And this wasn't a simple song by any means!  There were minor and major and diminished chords all over the place (as well as a key change), and this guy just breezed through it, catching the choruses, verses, bridges, everything in one listen and he had never heard the song before.  Then they went out into the studio and laid down a perfect track in one take.

I guess that's why they get paid the big bucks 

[azuredesign]

I had a chance to sit in with a Big Band last week (on guitar). Wow..was I not prepared . My counting need alot of work.

Also how do the jazz greats voice on the fly when presened with a lead sheet ?? Or is that what "it" is in jazz? Knowing it and letting it fly.
Man...do I have a lot to learn.

If there are any jazz guys out there, your input would be appreciated.

When you say "voice", are you referring to voicing chords, voice leading chords, soloing over lead sheet changes, or something else?

I played guitar in a couple of big bands and several pit bands for shows in the '70's and '80's. The lead sheet harmony is sometimes what the arranger wants the rhythm section to play, and sometimes it is a synopsis what the horns are playing. In the latter situation, you can usually leave out certain changes so that what you're playing has some flow to it. That's usually the role of big band guit, the rhythmic pulse.
Be careful to try and catch any hits though. If you've only got a rhythm section chart, it should be marked for hits with hats or other marks of emphasis. If you get a chart that also has the horn parts, you have to sometimes watch for emphasis markings on the melody that are concerted or repeated on the other horn parts as well. Most of the time these are somewhat cliched, so it can be fairly intuitive.

One thing that can be a bit of a learning experience is figuring what to play so that it doesn't clash with the piano player and/or the harmonized horn lines. This is especially true when running a part cold. One thing that I did was to figure out chord voicings that omitted the 5th, so they were root, third, seventh, usually with either the third or seventh on top. These forms are easy to move around and lend themselves to chromatic voice leading. As you get to know the arrangement, you can throw in color tones like altered 5ths, and 9ths and 13ths for emphasis.

Yeah I know I'm a wind bag, but I hope that helps!
Ben

[Burke]

Thanks azuredesign.
The music I was given had either a lead sheet w/ melody & chords or just chords with what I call "comp lines" for timing.

I have done some research and it looks like I was making it more than it needed to be.
Taking what you said and just keeping it simple root, 3rd & 7th, it should make it easier to learn.
Then I get bored (or cocky ) add some color tones.
Tonight I am going to work with that and a clicker on a few tunes and see how that works.

[azuredesign]

Hi Burke,

While there are many more modern approaches than this one, Freddie Green was and always will be the quintessential big band guitar player. Hardly ever a solo, but his approach is solid. Notice how in this blues Freddie plays sequences of chords that anticipate the change from the 1 chord to the 4 or leading up to the dominant change. The ability to play something interesting that leads to the next important harmonic change is a real asset. While I don't think this is Freddie at his best, you can really hear what he's doing in the context of playing with the rhythm section.

I played in a college big band that opened for Basie one night in the late 70's. I waited in the parking lot for Basie's bus to arrive so that I could shake Freddie's hand, quite a thrill for me. Unfortunately Basie was ill and Nat Pierce was playing for him, but I was in heaven watching Mr. Green. The thing that stayed with me was how economical he was in his movements. His left hand did not move very much up and down the neck, basically staying between the 3rd and 7th frets. He could have probably played the gig in his sleep, and he seemed like a very quiet, almost shy fellow, so maybe that enhanced the feeling that he was not a very emotional player at all. I remember Jimmy Forrest ( the guy who wrote and had the first hit with Night Train) was on that gig too, wonderful player!

[Retro Rocket]

2 - have an ear blessed by the almighty and just be able to hear what's happening and respond without thinking at all.

This is the method i use. I am a completely self taught Musician, i play lead and rhythm guitar, drums, bass, and about 10 years ago i taught myself to play saxaphone when a friend left his sax with me for a year. My ear tells me if it is major, minor, diminished, augmented or whatever and i play around the root notes in those rhythm's and after doing this for 30 years {i can't read a bar of sheet music} have become very adapt at the "add lib" method. The "phrasing" just comes naturally and this allows me to play lots of different styles, i am lucky to have been born with "perfect pitch". The big band experience would be very cool...

Mick

[azuredesign]

2 - have an ear blessed by the almighty and just be able to hear what's happening and respond without thinking at all.

This is the method i use. I am a completely self taught Musician, i play lead and rhythm guitar, drums, bass, and about 10 years ago i taught myself to play saxaphone when a friend left his sax with me for a year. My ear tells me if it is major, minor, diminished, augmented or whatever and i play around the root notes in those rhythm's and after doing this for 30 years {i can't read a bar of sheet music} have become very adapt at the "add lib" method. The "phrasing" just comes naturally and this allows me to play lots of different styles, i am lucky to have been born with "perfect pitch". The big band experience would be very cool...

Mick

I've met a few really wonderful musicians who never studied and couldn't read at all. From what I've read Django Reinhardt played completely by ear. I've also heard that Zoot Sims did as well. I read in David Newman's obit the other week that the reason he got the nickname "Fathead" was because he steadfastly refused to learn to read music, preferring to learn arrangements by ear. I also played alto sax and clarinet, although I no longer do so. I loved learning to play sax by ear, it seemed the most connected and pure way to play. While I don't make time to practice an instrument regularly any more, one of the things that always helped me was to listen to a melody or think one up in my head and then try to play it correctly. I don't have an inherently good pitch memory, and that helped me to make it better.

Here's a couple of questions for you though: With perfect pitch how do you deal with out of tune pianos and other instruments? Does it drive you nuts? I have pretty good relative pitch even though I'm losing my hearing. I wonder if an instrument is tuned to some other value than A=440 hz, or whatever your innate standard is, if it's hard for you to concentrate on playing.
I also wonder how you communicate if you want to lead a tune in a group. Do you play what you want the other musicians to play, or how do you explain what you want. (I read once that David Bowie and Mick Jagger dance the parts they want you to play!) That's not so hard playing music where the form is standardized, and there's a lot of cliched lines like in blues forms, but getting other people to play what you want them to seems like it would be harder. I've watched guys arrange horns just by pointing up or down to get the players to go up or down a chord tone in harmonized parts,  but I think one of the things that you get from studying a bit is a shared language.
Anyway, great to hear you love to play!

[Retro Rocket]

Hi mate, yes out of tune, as in slightly off pitch instruments drive me crazy, but if someone is playing a song in a different key then that is fine, no problems with that. I often tune everyones instruments up as i don't use an electronic tuner and find it quicker to tune by ear, i usually play a "G" or "D" open chord and tune the guitar to that because i find with a tuner, its accuracy depends on the Height of the guitars "action".
I used to have a mate that would ring me up and i would tune his guitars over the phone.
i use different tunings a lot and have three of my guitars tuned differently at all times, one is tuned at 440, one a tone lower and one in DADGCD, which is completely different from standard tuning, so no problems with different states of tune. As far as communicating riffs to others, i would generally play what i want them to play before we jam and take it from there. I can "read" my guitar very well, I know every note on the neck, so i can still relay chord changer verbally if i have to. My timing comes from being able to play drums, i find this invaluable for timing and "FEEL" for a rhythm as it allows me to play around the tune but still stay in time. I would be totally lost without my music as i play every day, it is a great release for me.
Hope i covered your questions.

Mick

[Burke]

I went to Freddie Green.org today and looked the articles and learned alot.
Tonight I sat down with a recording of "in the Mood" and my sheet music and with the simple chords in mind I got through it.

In one of the articles it talks about how he would hold a chord shape and just hit the notes in the shape the applied to the current and then he would be set for the next change. Good stuff there.

[Retro Rocket]

In one of the articles it talks about how he would hold a chord shape and just hit the notes in the shape the applied to the current and then he would be set for the next change. Good stuff there.

Now if you want to get really adventurous, if you "tap" the same notes in the chord in the same position but an octave apart, {above the 12th fret and in the same shape as the original chord} you will get really nice harmonic overtones.

Mick

[azuredesign]

Hi mate, yes out of tune, as in slightly off pitch instruments drive me crazy, but if someone is playing a song in a different key then that is fine, no problems with that. I often tune everyones instruments up as i don't use an electronic tuner and find it quicker to tune by ear, i usually play a "G" or "D" open chord and tune the guitar to that because i find with a tuner, its accuracy depends on the Height of the guitars "action".
I used to have a mate that would ring me up and i would tune his guitars over the phone.
i use different tunings a lot and have three of my guitars tuned differently at all times, one is tuned at 440, one a tone lower and one in DADGCD, which is completely different from standard tuning, so no problems with different states of tune. As far as communicating riffs to others, i would generally play what i want them to play before we jam and take it from there. I can "read" my guitar very well, I know every note on the neck, so i can still relay chord changer verbally if i have to. My timing comes from being able to play drums, i find this invaluable for timing and "FEEL" for a rhythm as it allows me to play around the tune but still stay in time. I would be totally lost without my music as i play every day, it is a great release for me.
Hope i covered your questions.

Mick

Thanks Mick!

[azuredesign]

I went to Freddie Green.org today and looked the articles and learned alot.
Tonight I sat down with a recording of "in the Mood" and my sheet music and with the simple chords in mind I got through it.

In one of the articles it talks about how he would hold a chord shape and just hit the notes in the shape the applied to the current and then he would be set for the next change. Good stuff there.

That's a great site Burke, thanks for bringing it to my attention! Congrats on making progress, if I can give a hand with anything, PM me, and I'll be happy to try.
All best,
Ben

[Burke]

I went to Freddie Green.org today and looked the articles and learned alot.
Tonight I sat down with a recording of "in the Mood" and my sheet music and with the simple chords in mind I got through it.

In one of the articles it talks about how he would hold a chord shape and just hit the notes in the shape the applied to the current and then he would be set for the next change. Good stuff there.

That's a great site Burke, thanks for bringing it to my attention! Congrats on making progress, if I can give a hand with anything, PM me, and I'll be happy to try.
All best,
Ben

You bet!
I never realized how many people here have done this. Very cool

[fuzzybutt]

years ago, before the brain injury, i played in a fusion band. i used to have that magical ear, which was good as i never have learned how to read music, lots of long improvised all instrumental stuff. big BIG fun. called ourselves Street Temperature. we were regulars at a place in hartford called the 880 Club.

[Burke]

I have a pretty good ear. I used give guitar lessons where the students used to bring in songs and I would listen to them and be able to play and teach the whole song to the kids in 30 minutes. I believe the more you use your ear the more it develops.
I alway had to work hard for my music.
I had friends that could just play, and they would pick up and play something that took me hours of practice to do. So that made me want to learn how everything worked.
It helped me when a kid would bring in a song, I would get the first few chords, then because I knew the theory (theory is just a list of what we like to hear in the order we like to hear it) I knew what would/could be next. And could give the kids an insight into how "decipher" the song fast.

Each musical style I approach makes me learn so much that I can understand why "full time" musicians are always broke.....THEY'RE TO BUSY LEARING STUFF!!

[JBMorse]

I think the most important part of being a musician is to listen to the music.  If you can familiarize yourself with a 32 bar aaba form you will have an easier time following charts.  You'll get used to the function of certain chords.  Altered chords usually resolve a certain way for example.  I had a hard time in jazz band with some charts until I learned the forms and harmonies typical to jazz. 
For rhthym, just watch the hits and listen to the rest of the band.  If you're comping, it can be hard to avoid stepping on the piano's toes.  You have to figure out how to fit your rhythm and actually add something. 
Finally, if it's a simple chart, I recommend memorizing it.  I often find myself following the chart too closely and that stifles my creativity.  If you're more relaxed and open to the music, your playing will have a better flow. 
Good luck!

[Retro Rocket]

I often find myself following the chart too closely and that stifles my creativity.  If you're more relaxed and open to the music, your playing will have a better flow.
Good luck!

I couldn't agree more, i know quite a few conservatory trained musicians and they are wonderful musicians in a concert situation where they play off sheet music but get them to try and play "off the cuff" and they have no idea at all because all their "structure" comes from the sheet music. Relaxation is the key, when i was younger i had a bit of "performance anxiety" and it made it hard to relax and therefore made it hard to be fluid, as my confidence grew and i was able to relax and enjoy playing "live" my playing improved out of sight. Now i love playing in front of a crowd and iam sure they enjoy my playing more as well.

Keep on playing

Mick