Topic: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig

[seven]

Has anybody here read this book. 

It's the story of a great philosophical journey that happens in a guy's head as he goes on a motorcycle road trip across the US of A.

Top book, and if you would like to read it you can do it on-line at this link.


http://virtualschool.edu/mon/Quality/PirsigZen/

[Tim in Ohio]

Yes.  I enjoyed that book.  Another book I liked (maybe better) is "Rebuilding the Indian" by Fred Haefele.

http://www.amazon.com/Rebuilding-Indian-Memoir-Fred-Haefele/dp/0803273584/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234324843&sr=8-1

[pdxPope]

Recently finished it, as a matter of fact.

No offense, mate, but I thought it was crap. A bunch of self-indulgent whining.

"I was so brilliant and pure and the establishment reprogrammed me, but now I'm free again. Blah, blah, blah."

The side story about a father & son on a cross country motorcycle trip was nice. Too bad there was all that narcissistic prattling in between.

What happened to Chris later in life was really tragic:

(From Wikipedia):
In 1979, Pirsig's son Chris — who had played an important role in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance — was stabbed to death during a mugging outside the San Francisco Zen Center. Pirsig discusses this incident in an afterword to subsequent editions of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
 

-JP

[heffay]

Quality

[MCRider]

Recently finished it, as a matter of fact.

No offense, mate, but I thought it was crap. A bunch of self-indulgent whining.

"I was so brilliant and pure and the establishment reprogrammed me, but now I'm free again. Blah, blah, blah."

The side story about a father & son on a cross country motorcycle trip was nice. Too bad there was all that narcissistic prattling in between.

What happened to Chris later in life was really tragic:

(From Wikipedia):
In 1979, Pirsig's son Chris — who had played an important role in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance — was stabbed to death during a mugging outside the San Francisco Zen Center. Pirsig discusses this incident in an afterword to subsequent editions of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
 

-JP

Don't blame you for not liking it, its not for everyone.

Allow me to indulge a little bit.

Hard to not be self-indulgent when one is writing an autobiography. Pirsig is a genius, as these things are defined, with an IQ of 170 at age 9. He is/was also a nutjob, hence the Phaedrus alter ego, who went into the hospital. I found it magnetic on so many levels. Including a Stephen King type level.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Pirsig
Affected me:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=36459.0

PS: I've read "Rebuilding the Indian" twice just finished the second time. On a less self-indulgent level, very good. I feel empathy with him as he rebuilt his and I'm rebuilding mine. Same sort of barriers, decisions, cost overruns, etc.

[BIKE]

I attempted to read this book late last year and failed miserably.  That's a tall feat as I can read just about anything and have only given up on one other book in my life.

I thought it was total and utter crap.

I felt sorry for his son, Chris, and the way that his father treated him.  I get that it was an autobiography but my problem with it was that Pirsig thought he had the answers to how others should be and failed on many levels himself.  Genius or not the book was horrid.

Glad you enjoyed it though.  I'm sure some of the stuff I read would put others off.

[MCRider]

I attempted to read this book late last year and failed miserably.  That's a tall feat as I can read just about anything and have only given up on one other book in my life.

I thought it was total and utter crap.

I felt sorry for his son, Chris, and the way that his father treated him.  I get that it was an autobiography but my problem with it was that Pirsig thought he had the answers to how others should be and failed on many levels himself.  Genius or not the book was horrid.

Glad you enjoyed it though.  I'm sure some of the stuff I read would put others off.

Responses to ZAMM are often extreme. Either its genius or its crap. Curious.

I thought it was often apologetic to Chris. Pirsig was very conscious of his failings, inability to parent whille struggling with mental illness. Self resentment that he may have passed his nutjob gene to Chris.

Chris was killed near the Zen Center. I think he was likely there from a positive influence of his father.  Ironic.

Thanks for your comments, added to the data bank. 

[HondanutRider]

"Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig is probably the most publicized and read book, ever, on the subject of philosophy.  Now, I'm an engineer and not very versed in philosophy, but this book was still a good read (twice) for me, mostly because it describes an epic motorcycle journey.  Although the narrative doesn't list the exact motorcycle model that was ridden, from the descriptions I always imagined it was the very model I have owned for may years - a Honda CB77 Super Hawk.  Later publications and interviews apparently have identified this truly being the exact model of bike that Pirsig and his son rode on.  In fact, if you search around you can find pictures of the two on this bike.

[Uncle Ernie]

I lived in San Francisco for 25 years.  Just because someone looks normal doesn't mean they're not crazy, and many times the folks who look like whack-jobs are extremely rational and well thought out. (like me   )

My ego took it hard that I (Mr Bigshot J Smartypants) was having a harder and harder time following his descent into a sticky miasma. As Pirsig slid father down the hill in that book, I finally decided to wave and see if he ever got back.  

I quit waiting, although I still laugh when some thumb-up-his-patoot wonders what he should use for shim material.  (Several W650 people have that dilemma when switching to off-brand low-bars.)

[MCRider]

That picture is the most common I've seen. I can'tbelieve how much stuff he has packed on there. In the book there is a packing list. Not a lot of lightweight miniature gear back then as there is now.

[Duke McDukiedook]

Read it and the sequel and enjoyed them quite a bit. After I read it I knew I would eventually purchase a motorcycle (once I had enough money). Yeah, when he gets neck deep in the philosphy parts it gets pretty tough to read (Not a philosophy major) but the read was worth it. His metaphysics of quality was pretty entriguing, and I believe is fairly correct in my mind. A big reason why I think a lot of people have problems with technology and adapting to it. I could see where the book would polarize people into two categories, but when you are writing a novel that covers as much ground as this one you will lose quite a few people. The book is definitely not light summer reading.


 

[pdxPope]

I still laugh when some thumb-up-his-patoot wonders what he should use for shim material.

As long as it's not being used on an airhead BMW it's perfectly acceptable!

Yeah, when he gets neck deep in the philosphy parts it gets pretty tough to read (Not a philosophy major) but the read was worth it. His metaphysics of quality was pretty entriguing, and I believe is fairly correct in my mind.

Well I was a philosophy major and I still thought it was crap. None of his ideas were particurlarly new or enlightnening. Hell, the GREEKS argued about the relative merits of knowledge for it's own sake.


-JP

[seven]

Everyones views, about the book, whether they're good or bad are valid. Because, like all philosophical discussions, we are zoning in on what essentially makes us tick.

I liked the way he described freeways as basically soul destroyers and how riding a motorcycle fuses you to the scenery where as in a car you are detached from it, watching it all go by on a screen.

Wow, I didn't know his son was killed.

I haven't read "Rebuilding the Indian", will have to get myself a copy.

Now to more important things. Can anyone tell, from the photo, what model Honda that is?

[MCRider]

Hondanutrider had it right, its a 1964 CB77, 305 SuperHawk. He bought it in 1966, the trip was 1968, ZAMM was published in 1974.  http://www.psybertron.org/timeline.html

[Frankenkit]

I'm only a chapter in, but I'm going to say I like his writing style.  Maybe it is self indulgent whining, but reading it, it sounds a lot like my general train of thought (which may also be a lot of self-indulgent whining).

[MCRider]

I'm only a chapter in, but I'm going to say I like his writing style.  Maybe it is self indulgent whining, but reading it, it sounds a lot like my general train of thought (which may also be a lot of self-indulgent whining).

I first read it in 1976. A girl i was dating worked in a bookstore, said i should read it. I didn't have the luxury of knowing the "Phaedrus" character was really him. 

I guess the self-indulgent thing never registered with me. In a semi-autobiography, I enjoy and expect the author to spill their guts, give us the inside skinny on thoughts and feelings, otherwise, what's the point?

There may be a line between whining and personal struggle. To me, he was descibing a personal struggle, which we all have (I think) and can benefit from hearing how others cope (or don't cope).

To others it could be whining I suppose.

[mystic_1]

Everyones views, about the book, whether they're good or bad are valid. Because, like all philosophical discussions, we are zoning in on what essentially makes us tick.

I tend to agree.  Whether this book is self-indulgent crap or not, it tends to promote deeper thinking and discussion, which is always a good thing.  It's a fairly easy read, too.

mystic_1

[Frankenkit]

I agree.  It really flows, and you get a sense of where he is from his thought pattern.  His familiarity with his bike is something I envy.  oh and fwiw, I thought it was interesting in ch5 somewhere where Chris's stomach pain is mentioned, how test results were always negative and they thought it was a psych. thing... that was my whole childhood. only now as an adult am I getting taken seriously, so it's another facet of interest for me.

[pdxPope]

Yes, yes and yes. I agree with everything you've all said. that's kinda my point.
He was such a genius, but couldn't figure out that what seemed to him to be monstrous truths, too difficult to live with, are the same things that everyone has to come to grips with.
To me, there were no great revelations in the book.

That's where the self-indulgent whining comment comes from.

It would be like someone coming up to you in the street, distraught and unable to function as a rational humnan being because he's just figured out that someday we're all going to die.

Well, duh!

Maybe I'm just jaded. Maybe I'm a genius, too. I think I'll go invent an alter ego and tell everyone how smart and deep I am because I've unraveled the greatest mysteries of life.

Oh, wait. I already have. "pdxPope"   

-JP

[Frankenkit]

...don't all geniuses have alter egos?
"Kit"
"Aryn"
"Ronnie"

pdxPope, hoist yonself telephone booth-wards and tear off your sportcoat to reveal either body hair or the colorful lycra trappings of your super-alter-ego!

[MCRider]

We all come into this world "tabula rasa". Blank Slate. At least to an (large) extent, everything is new. What seems obvious to some is a lifelong quest for others. The popularity of the book indicates there are many in the world that have followed are following that path.

In my case, sure the Greeks may have said it before, but I'd never seen it. And probably never would have, had he not presented it on such a platform. So it was a revelation.

After the title hooks one in, one of his first statements was "this book has little to do about Zen or Motorcycle Maintenance". But too bad I'm already hooked. That's a form of genius many authors would kill for.

Genius may be, often is more a measure of capacity than understanding. Certainly not an indication of breadth of understanding.  Einstein for example, personal life was a wreck. Why if genius wasn't the answer more obvious?

I'd better stop here. A ZAMM thread always gets me rambling and ranting.   

[MCRider]

But you know... Tim in Ohio (2nd post) referred to "Rebuilding the Indian" by Fred Haefele.
I'd like ti throw it in as ZAMM Lite.

Quite a bit of personal stuff as Fred rebuilt his Indian. About relationships and working, and friends and burnout. He was mid-50s like me, with a dream about his bike.

Frustrations and delays. Mock it up, take it down. Go make some money. Placate the wife, hold together a small business. Buy a part and find out its bad. Etc.

Finish it, and listen to the "Man now that's something!" comments.

Makes it all worth it.

[pdxPope]

We all come into this world "tabula rasa". Blank Slate. At least to an (large) extent, everything is new. What seems obvious to some is a lifelong quest for others. The popularity of the book indicates there are many in the world that have followed are following that path.

In my case, sure the Greeks may have said it before, but I'd never seen it. And probably never would have, had he not presented it on such a platform. So it was a revelation.

Truly.
Personal reflection is such a private thing. As is each person's individual understanding and experience of the universe. 
Kurt Vonnegut, for example. I find his works to be genius. My father (who has a PhD in education) just doesn't 'get' him. Never has.
Same thing goes for Monty Python, btw.

So, perhaps I've judged too harshly Mr. Pirsig.


Now, if you'll excuse me...................my super vision has detected a runaway locomotive!

Ta DA! 

-JP

[MCRider]

We all come into this world "tabula rasa". Blank Slate. At least to an (large) extent, everything is new. What seems obvious to some is a lifelong quest for others. The popularity of the book indicates there are many in the world that have followed are following that path.

In my case, sure the Greeks may have said it before, but I'd never seen it. And probably never would have, had he not presented it on such a platform. So it was a revelation.

Truly.
Personal reflection is such a private thing. As is each person's individual understanding and experience of the universe. 
Kurt Vonnegut, for example. I find his works to be genius. My father (who has a PhD in education) just doesn't 'get' him. Never has.
Same thing goes for Monty Python, btw.

So, perhaps I've judged too harshly Mr. Pirsig.


Now, if you'll excuse me...................my super vision has detected a runaway locomotive!

Ta DA! 

-JP

 Now Monty Python... I never miss the series when its on PBS and have seen all the movies.

 

[RatBikeRandy]

As many times as it is mentioned in "Cycle World", I had to get a copy.  I was pretty disappointed in the book overall.  Had hoped for something much better.  Reading "On the Road" by Jack Kerouac now. Pretty good after the first slow chapter.