Author Topic: Terry's boring weekend.  (Read 5631 times)

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Offline 754

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Re: Terry's boring weekend.
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2009, 09:37:54 AM »
I bore them on the lathe, then the engine shop hones out the last few thou..

sure are thick liners though..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Markcb750

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Re: Terry's boring weekend.
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2009, 01:14:36 PM »
I bore them on the lathe, then the engine shop hones out the last few thou..

sure are thick liners though..

What size lathe do you have!

Do you counter balance the load or depend on the hone to clean up?

Out of round due to unbalance bearing loading would be significant.

Offline 754

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Re: Terry's boring weekend.
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2009, 05:15:20 PM »
Sportster barrels are fairly symetrical.

I use a 16 inch lathe that weighs 3700 lbs, so it can take a fair amount of imbalance, if it was vibrating I would add counter weight.

I leave 3 or 4 thou for the engone shop to hone, they are honed with torque plates.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Markcb750

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Re: Terry's boring weekend.
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2009, 07:59:14 PM »
Sportster barrels are fairly symetrical.




I was envisioning a cb four being bored on a lathe, not a easy thing to swing.

Offline 754

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Re: Terry's boring weekend.
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2009, 08:15:29 PM »
Thpught you moght be thinking that, think you would need  at least a 28 incher..

Easy to throw it (4 cyl) on a vertical mill in a pinch.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Terry's boring weekend.
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2009, 10:01:21 PM »
apt subject line terry. At an hour a cylinder, boring sound boring.
glad everyone's vouching your good work, chat to ya later in the week.
Emailed this to ya, but maybe ya learned mates might want to see my new ally tank and seat.
all the best, al  ;)



G'Day Mate, hey that looks great! Has it arrived yet? Cheers, Terry. ;D


How much is a "stuffed up"?

An answer in mm is fine.

Is that 0.005 on the bore diameter, depth of cut, or feed per revolution.  ::)

What kind of boring tools do you use?  On the machines I designed we would use carbide insert boring bars, one for rough, one for finish. Each had an insert designed specifically for the task and Material. Much more then O.005 inches.

Old Machinist taught me bore for straightness, ream for size, hone for finish.

With modern tooling the second and third steps are generally not needed. Although we set up the boneheads in Milwaukee with a hone to finish their connecting rods. 

G'Day Mark, I'm not sure if you were asking me or Morini the "stuffed up" question, but if it was directed at me, my first attempt to bore my 70mm Suzuki GS1000 cylinders to 72mm ended up with a sloppy .004" clearance on #1 cylinder.

I know that "a poor tradesman blames his tools", but the "depth of cut" micrometer that came with my boring bar looks like it was used at one time as a hammer, so if you have a good one there that you'd like to sell, or know where I can buy one, please let me know, at the moment I'm using my digital vernier which appears to be very accurate, but a bit tricky, as it doesn't "hold" the tool like the OEM mike does.   

.004" is still within spec, but I couldn't bring myself to use them, but recently I scored a set of "almost new" 73mm (1085cc) MTC forged pistons, so when I get time I'll bore the cylinders out to suit them, although I'll stop a few thou short and use my recently aquired Ammco 500 micrometer adjustable 4 stone hone to finish them.

The .005 is depth of cut. The tools are, I believe, carbide inserts sweated onto the tool holder, they hold their edge really well which is good, as I tried to resharpen an old one with a chip taken out of it on my bench grinder, and it was damn near impossible.

I've never tried to ream out a cylinder, but it makes good sense, and I guess in a way the Ammco 4 stone hone is about as close as the average bike shop would get to a reamer anyway? It's a pity it's too big for this engine, I ran it for a couple of passes in the GS1000 cylinder, and was very impressed with the smooth, even finish.

The Ammco hone was in fantastic condition (thank you EBay!) and came in the original steel case with all the accessories, and even had all the original literature, including an advert for a conrod finishing honing machine, which I thought would be a pretty cool old tool, if I can find one?

Oh, and Frank, the 1200 conversion kit for the 883 is so cheap I don't know why you'd bother, but my 17" swing lathe with it's 1 metre bed would likely handle the "roughing" cut's, I've bored a couple of CB750 sleeves in the 3 jaw chuck, then (after shrinking them back into the cylinder block) finished them on the boring bar, which seemed to work quite well. But to be honest, I'd rather start with a 1200 Sporty and buy the 1400 kit anyway............  ;)

Cheers, Terry. ;D
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So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

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Offline crazypj

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Re: Terry's boring weekend.
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2009, 10:20:24 PM »
Sportster barrels are fairly symetrical.




I was envisioning a cb four being bored on a lathe, not a easy thing to swing.

 That's easy, set it up on angle plate on  cross slide and use boring bar between centers.
 Shrunk in sleeves wouldn't allow reaming, too much torque needed.
 Engine machining (on motorcycles) isn't like normal machine shop processes.
FWIW,
 The 'lip' on the top of cylinder liner is called  a flange, the bit that sticks out the bottom is a spigot
 Terry, you don't try and use micrometer to set tool tip to dead nuts size, you do a scratch cut, measure the bore and then use the tool tip as your 'zero' position. You only need to know if bore mic is measuring radius or diameter (basically, ignore all the sleeve scale readings and use thimble scale only)

PJ
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 10:24:42 PM by crazypj »
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Terry's boring weekend.
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2009, 04:54:21 AM »

Terry, you don't try and use micrometer to set tool tip to dead nuts size, you do a scratch cut, measure the bore and then use the tool tip as your 'zero' position. You only need to know if bore mic is measuring radius or diameter (basically, ignore all the sleeve scale readings and use thimble scale only)

PJ


Thanks PJ, that's actually what I did, I did a "scratch cut", then backed the adjuster screw on the cutting tool out .005 for each pass.

The mike is totally stuffed, so I used the digital vernier, it seems to be very accurate, but a little tricky as it doesn't "hold" the tool like the boring bars mike. Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline 754

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Re: Terry's boring weekend.
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2009, 07:26:48 AM »
Terry, you need a certain stone to grind carbide, the ones i use are always green. carbide will eat a normal stone.

Terry, the first 883 we took to 1200 was back in around 93. Here an 883 is a lot cheaper to insure (and we been known to streetrace){also cheaper overall to mod the 883 than to buy a 1200, plus the sleeper factor}. Anyway the Sporty owner also raced a cb750.
So at the time, you could not buy drop in pistons, HD sold a pair of stock 80 ci pistons & a template. The template
 was to modify the head from a bathtub to hemi shape like an 80ci.
 Anyway, we bored the cyl out, opened the chamber, cut part of the Stock baffles out, removed the aircleaner element. So  stock pipes carb, aircleaner cover.. ran 12.7 first time out! (just in case anyone wonders why I am not so sure that a CB 750 will beat most Harleys) Cost me a lot more to get my 750 to do that >:(

PJ, I would skip the bar between centres and hold a boring head in the chuck for that method. It takes a long time to centre bores though, mill is quicker.

Terry, if you do pop sleeves out to rough out, press them in a tube (a few ways to hold them), less chance of cracking or distortion.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Markcb750

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Re: Terry's boring weekend.
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2009, 05:02:12 AM »
Email I recieved, thanks David for trying not to hurt my delicate sensibilities. Mark

--- On Wed, 2/18/09, David

    From: David
    Subject: Cb750 boring
    To: "vt532002@yahoo.com" <vt532002@yahoo.com>
    Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 7:08 PM

    I did want to make this public on the SOHC forum but I just checked the
    Machinery Handbook and even the best reamer only holds a .0005 thou tolerance,
    my worst jig boring machine holds a tenth. If I do it myself I can hold a
    tolerance +or- 0000 thou.



Jig boring, or not, doesn't matter...

Don't know where the conditions are but .0005 is one half a thousands of an inch...pretty dam good if you are trying to size a hole with out piddling around with settings on a boring bar.  Pretty sure if the trick builders here could make the four bores in a 750 cylinder with in +/- 0.0005" of each other they would be able to build the engine with confidence

Do not know what bores you are talking about holding 0.0000 size on with a boring bar but my experience tells me the boring bar will create a nice hole, but never hold size particularly on long bores with out significant tinkering from hole to hole.  Even on a really nice Devlieg.(how is that for old!)



Dill, Bore, and ream. will create a very consistent series of holes. if half a thousands over or under is a problem, an adjustable ream or hone can be used to fine tune. I have delivered systems to the aircraft and nuclear industries where we held +/- 0.0001 inch on final sizing.

FYI
Drilling removes excess material quickly.
Boring locates the hole correctly; drill bits tend to wander and drill at an angle particular at long length/diameter ratios
ream finishes to size without a lot of operator intervention.


A good ream will also produce a better surface finish for some applications.  As I said, modern machines and boring bars with super hard inserts negate this old machinists rule, particularly in job shop situations.

The biggest problem I had with machinists finishing bearing bores and cylinder bores is not leaving the final cut depth correct, leaving too little material for the cutting edge to bite into and either oversizing the hole, or leaving a very rough bore due to chatter as the cutting edge bites then deflects out of the material.  This could be why Terry uses such a low feed depth, this insures he is slowly approaching that final pass but who knows could be because that old boring machine just will not stand up to a greater cut...I think you see the input skill has by knowing you can hold closer tolerance then others, some guys just have the skills, some don't.

For CNC operations we now have probes, computers and multiple ways to automatically offset the boring bar tip to finish the hole.  I don't know anyone outside the airframe business still consistently reaming holes.  Boeing bought 2 Machines from us in the 90's to develop single pass hole drilling and sizing using high speed tools and high pressure coolant, I assume the experiments worked, but who knows.  I left that industry 10 years ago.






Mark
Thanks for allowing me to think about the past a while this morning.  We made some great machines.