Topic: Gun control (The official gun thread!)

[dustyc]

Where would we draw that line?  Games and movies?  Or would football, hockey, boxing, ultimate fighting and wrestling need to go too?

I still think it comes down to how we deal with peoples' mental problems.  That way we can keep our pocket knives too.

[Grnrngr]

And if we can look to a place where "public" gun ownership is as strictly prohibited, a place where it is unikely that kids there are training to be kilers by playing video games, a place like, say China,

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/298545/chinese-man-goes-stabbing-spree.html

Marginalized and mentally ill people exist world wide. When we firure out how to resolve those issues, maybe we can begin working on why we kill each other over race, religion, or sociopolitical economic systems.

and zombies.

[Jerry Rxman Griffin]

Terry and other non-US types,

"At the time, as an owner of a really nice M1 Carbine I was pissed that I, as a qualified small arms instructor, had to hand in my own personal possessions because some oxygen thieves who didn't deserve to live had run amok and murdered innocent people who were just going about their lives. To be honest, I still am."

Whereas you apparently surrendered your weapon(s) that will NEVER happen here irregardless of ANY law passed. Our citizenery is the largest army the world has ever seen and heaven help any country/entity foolish enough to try us on for size.

I wouldn't object to a ban on new purchase assault weapons (we already have more than enough) once they are identified and differentiated from game hunting guns and a MUCH more stringent set of rules pre-purchase for EACH gun purchased. Individual gun and owner training classes for each single gun purchase and more registration hoops to jump through paid by the purchaser should be required. Let's see how serious folks are about adding to their arsenals. Pistols for self-defense and hunting rifles only allowed.

[Terry in Australia]

Terry and other non-US types,

Whereas you apparently surrendered your weapon(s) that will NEVER happen here irregardless of ANY law passed. Our citizenery is the largest army the world has ever seen and heaven help any country/entity foolish enough to try us on for size.

Ha ha, as romantic as a vision of an army of American citizens repelling an invading force might be Jerry, that's all it really is, a Walt Disney-esque romantic notion.

If, for instance, the US decided to default on the 2 trillion dollars it currently owes China, and China decided to call in the debt,  with a defence force almost twice the size of the entire US military, and a population 5 times that of the US, they wouldn't have too difficult a time of it.

As far as the whole "Civil Disobedience" thing goes, if the government made the penalties for not handing in particular weapons heavy enough (i.e., massive fines, or even jail terms) folks would line up to hand 'em back. It's easy to talk tough when it's not happening.

Our government was smart enough to not confiscate the weapons outright, but rather, we had a "Gun Buy-Back Scheme", where we were offered a decent price for our guns, and a lot of us actually made money out of the scheme. Considering how desperate some folks in the US are for money right now, they'd probably welcome a similar scheme. Cheers, Terry.    

[starsnbars89]

^^^ What's sad is... I pretty much agree with everything said there. Gone are the days where the men of this country would rise up and arm themselves in her defense... we're too busy playing video games and making money to stay entertained...

[BobbyR]

Terry and other non-US types,

Whereas you apparently surrendered your weapon(s) that will NEVER happen here irregardless of ANY law passed. Our citizenery is the largest army the world has ever seen and heaven help any country/entity foolish enough to try us on for size.

Ha ha, as romantic as a vision of an army of American citizens repelling an invading force might be Jerry, that's all it really is, a Walt Disney-esque romantic notion.

If, for instance, the US decided to default on the 2 trillion dollars it currently owes China, and China decided to call in the debt,  with a defence force almost twice the size of the entire US military, and a population 5 times that of the US, they wouldn't have too difficult a time of it.

As far as the whole "Civil Disobedience" thing goes, if the government made the penalties for not handing in particular weapons heavy enough (i.e., massive fines, or even jail terms) folks would line up to hand 'em back. It's easy to talk tough when it's not happening.

Our government was smart enough to not confiscate the weapons outright, but rather, we had a "Gun Buy-Back Scheme", where we were offered a decent price for our guns, and a lot of us actually made money out of the scheme. Considering how desperate some folks in the US are for money right now, they'd probably welcome a similar scheme. Cheers, Terry.    

The Chinese would have to get their defense force here, we are not that close. They do not have the ability to move that many troops.

Invasion is far easier than Occupation, that is a lesson we should have learned in Vietnam and the keep forgetting.
We have Gun buy backs and they are great press opportunities. The sad truth is they get junk. When investigative reporters who actually look at things talk to the kids they find out they turn in junk to get cash to buy something better.

Americans are very unruly when it comes to being pushed around. Fines and #$%* don't work since we have fines and #$%* for everything. Your chances of capture are small.

OZ is a big place with 23M people. We have 300M and our Urban centers are so dense finding something like guns would be impossible. When you get out of the urban centers everything is so spread out good luck finding those Guns.

Now, this Newspaper made a Map of all the licensed pistol owners in Westchester and Rockland County NY, they invaded our privacy.

A group compiled a map of all the Editors, Reporters and Executives of that paper and it has  THEIR home addresses, Telephone numbers and email addresses. Oh yeah their salaries. 

Americans are nuts, but we have fun at it.

[madScientist]

Yeah those gun buy backs are awesome!! I took in 3 stevens shotguns and 2 junk .22's (combined value of about $150)...all 5 of these guns I confirmed would not fire (since you have to have non broken firing pins to get them to work). The great state of Chicago (not a typo) gave me close to $1k for all of them!! Which i then in turn went out and bought a Remington 700 308 complete with McMillan A5 stock.

Best

Trade

EVER!

[MCRider]

Yeah those gun buy backs are awesome!! I took in 3 stevens shotguns and 2 junk .22's (combined value of about $150)...all 5 of these guns I confirmed would not fire (since you have to have non broken firing pins to get them to work). The great state of Chicago (not a typo) gave me close to $1k for all of them!! Which i then in turn went out and bought a Remington 700 308 complete with McMillan A5 stock.

Best

Trade

EVER!

That's a great story, and I've heard it elsewhere as well.

 BTW: Chicago = People's Republic of Chicago.   

Or "PR of IL."

The Police just cringe when these things happen, but what can they do? The Pols mandate the buyback and the Police have to carry it out.

It makes the do gooders "Feel" good.

[srust58]

[quote author=BobbyR link=topic=47852.msg1311514#msg1311514 date=1356494878

 

The largest newspaper in the area has used the County records to compile a Google map of all Pistol Permit holders in the three surrounding Counties. Locate a street and click on a dot the name and address of the permit holder pops up. Now, we have to worry about some #$%* head coming here to rob my pistols. Now I have to think about carrying a weapon with me, which I don't do, so if I come home or am home and someone invades my home, I have a chance.

The anti gun people have forced the legitimate owners up against the wall, so now those of us on the fence, have to push back hard. 



[/quote]

 A handgun is a potential threat to anyone around them.  Why shouldn't the public know who these people are and where they live?   This summer we had a workplace shooting where the guy killed several co-workers with a legally owned pistol just a few blocks from me.  Might be nice to know what co-workers have a permit.  In another instance locally a child accidentally shot his young brother at home with a legally owned handgun.  Would you want your child to be playing at a friend's home where handguns are in the house?  How would you know?  Gun owners are so quick to bandy about the Constitution to protect their rights to own handguns and assault weapons even to the detriment of public safety.  Well I feel that a stranger carrying a concealed weapon is a threat to my safety  and I have the right to know who they are and where they live.  It's public information and the newspaper had a right to publish it...Freedom of Speech....got a problem with that, take it up with the Constitution.  If handgun owners feel threatened by it...to bad.... it's the public's right to know.  I thought the newspaper pulled a brilliantly ironic move.

I think your last statement is backwards.  It's the owners with a gun fetish that have everyone else up against the wall.
 

[madScientist]

srust -- do you feel we need to register knives? are you afraid of automobiles? how about cigarettes? maybe we should look at banning alcohol again (because THAT worked well...)?

All of the above have the ability to kill. Cigarettes and automobiles kill more people in the US yearly than guns.

Should former military be forced to register? Specifically special forces? They are trained to be weapons...

Should we register or euthanize pitbulls? Rotweillers? German Shephards? Any other animals with the propensity to be violent?

How about people who collect swords? Should those be registered?

I mean no disrespect at all and we're all entitled to what we believe. Honestly it doesn't really matter what any of us "want" to happen as the politicians are going to do what they think will get better approval ratings. Regardless of what anyone thinks. If we are going to focus on keeping the US safe maybe we should consider all of the above?

I know all of my guns are well locked up. However I would also say that I'm probably a rare exception to most gun owners in that all of my guns (with the exception of the gun i keep on person) are in a safe and the firing pins are removed (and in a different safe).

[Retro Rocket]

All of the above have the ability to kill. Cigarettes and automobiles kill more people in the US yearly than guns.

No comparison what so ever... Cigarettes, cars, alcohol, whatever, were NOT designed to kill....  I saw a documentary last night on Philadelphia, i think it was the 42nd precinct, #$%*ing amazing, violent as anything i have ever seen, i'm glad we have the laws we do because we don't have anything like that in Aus, not even close....

[roach carver]

James Bonds cigarettes were designed to kill.

[BobbyR]

[quote author=BobbyR link=topic=47852.msg1311514#msg1311514 date=1356494878

 

The largest newspaper in the area has used the County records to compile a Google map of all Pistol Permit holders in the three surrounding Counties. Locate a street and click on a dot the name and address of the permit holder pops up. Now, we have to worry about some #$%* head coming here to rob my pistols. Now I have to think about carrying a weapon with me, which I don't do, so if I come home or am home and someone invades my home, I have a chance.

The anti gun people have forced the legitimate owners up against the wall, so now those of us on the fence, have to push back hard. 

 A handgun is a potential threat to anyone around them.  Why shouldn't the public know who these people are and where they live?   This summer we had a workplace shooting where the guy killed several co-workers with a legally owned pistol just a few blocks from me.  Might be nice to know what co-workers have a permit.  In another instance locally a child accidentally shot his young brother at home with a legally owned handgun.  Would you want your child to be playing at a friend's home where handguns are in the house?  How would you know?  Gun owners are so quick to bandy about the Constitution to protect their rights to own handguns and assault weapons even to the detriment of public safety.  Well I feel that a stranger carrying a concealed weapon is a threat to my safety  and I have the right to know who they are and where they live.  It's public information and the newspaper had a right to publish it...Freedom of Speech....got a problem with that, take it up with the Constitution.  If handgun owners feel threatened by it...to bad.... it's the public's right to know.  I thought the newspaper pulled a brilliantly ironic move.

I think your last statement is backwards.  It's the owners with a gun fetish that have everyone else up against the wall.
[/quote]

The newspaper pulled a sensational stunt which put a lot of people in jeopardy. There are retired Undercover Police Officers and Federal Agents on that list. 

The numbers work out to 1 in 20 people have a permit. The number of incidents other than clear self defense is ZERO in the past 10 years.

OK, I have a permit, what are you going to do about it? Move out of the Neighborhood? Call the Cops if you see me walking my Dog? Have me frisked when I come into work? 

Did they list all of the people that have a DUI so maybe your kid doesn't get in a car with that Johnny's lovely Mom who washes down her Prozac with Grey Goose and takes them to Soccer practice. How about Billy's Dad that did a stint in rehab a few times?

The people on that list went through a 6 Month to 1 One Year process. Deep background checks, interviews with the local Police, 5 sets of fingerprints, 5 references. When you have gone through that, it goes to the County Police for their OK, then it goes to a County Judge who can deny if he does not like your face, no reason needed.

These people at the paper have stoked the fire, they have taken moderates like myself, and now we say bull#$%*, now I need the NRA to watch my back.

Worse than that I am now in a position where I must worry about a Home invasion. I have to now do what i have not done in years, I have to carry a piece, so that when we come home we have to worry about interrupting a robbery.

Some people who were never going to get hurt are going to get hurt due to this. It was not done for the public good.       

[Terry in Australia]

James Bonds cigarettes were designed to kill.

My underpants contain traces of nuts. Anaphylactics beware!

[Spikeybike]

makes me glad (or sad, depending)  i live in Wisconsin.......  all you need here to buy a gun is your drivers licence  ... after the 7 day waiting period of coarse

[Terry in Australia]

makes me glad (or sad, depending)  i live in Wisconsin.......  all you need here to buy a gun is your drivers licence  ... after the 7 day waiting period of coarse

That'd be good for me mate, I can't stay angry for more than a few minutes, but my wife? Well, I'm glad we don't live in Wisconsin, especially when I bring home another "project"................

[Retro Rocket]

James Bonds cigarettes were designed to kill.

My underpants contain traces of nuts. Anaphylactics beware!

HAHAHA   

[Terry in Australia]

I just read an email that Eric sent me that's been circulating for a few years now, about how the murder rate in Oz has gone thru the roof since guns were banned. (which of course, they weren't) Just to check that Oz hasn't, in fact, turned into the Wild West overnight, I found this interesting website.

You can click on any country around the world and see what the murder rate is for that country. http://chartsbin.com/view/1454

What I find interesting is that the US has a murder rate 3-4 times of that of it's "most civilised" neighbour, Canada. Canada has similar gun laws to Oz, and a similar culture of not being terribly interested in arming themselves to the teeth. Coincidentally, Canada has a murder rate of only around 50% higher than Oz, compared to the US murder rate of 400-500% higher than Oz. Fascinating. Cheers, Terry.  

[Retro Rocket]

I just read an email that Eric sent me that's been circulating for a few years now, about how the murder rate in Oz has gone thru the roof since guns were banned.

Probably the NRA propaganda machine hard at work, its the "never let the truth get in the way of a good story" thing....

I don't like that chart Terry, makes us look colorless and boring....

[srust58]

srust -- do you feel we need to register knives? are you afraid of automobiles? how about cigarettes? maybe we should look at banning alcohol again (because THAT worked well...)?

All of the above have the ability to kill. Cigarettes and automobiles kill more people in the US yearly than guns.

Should former military be forced to register? Specifically special forces? They are trained to be weapons...

Should we register or euthanize pitbulls? Rotweillers? German Shephards? Any other animals with the propensity to be violent?

How about people who collect swords? Should those be registered?

I mean no disrespect at all and we're all entitled to what we believe. Honestly it doesn't really matter what any of us "want" to happen as the politicians are going to do what they think will get better approval ratings. Regardless of what anyone thinks. If we are going to focus on keeping the US safe maybe we should consider all of the above?

I know all of my guns are well locked up. However I would also say that I'm probably a rare exception to most gun owners in that all of my guns (with the exception of the gun i keep on person) are in a safe and the firing pins are removed (and in a different safe).

Your post is nothing more than the false equivalency argument that always gets regurgitated up in an almost knee jerk fashion whenever this discussion comes up.  It's a logical fallacy where you try and show that just because two subjects share a common trait they are equal though equivalence does not necessarily exist.  Nothing more than a tactic to avoid discussing the real issue and as such requires no other response.


On the other point, good on you that you are responsible but it seems for every one like you there is the guy who keeps it under his pillow.  That was the story of the father who's one child shot and killed the other. 
 

[simon#42]

I just read an email that Eric sent me that's been circulating for a few years now, about how the murder rate in Oz has gone thru the roof since guns were banned. (which of course, they weren't) Just to check that Oz hasn't, in fact, turned into the Wild West overnight, I found this interesting website.

You can click on any country around the world and see what the murder rate is for that country. http://chartsbin.com/view/1454

What I find interesting is that the US has a murder rate 3-4 times of that of it's "most civilised" neighbour, Canada. Canada has similar gun laws to Oz, and a similar culture of not being terribly interested in arming themselves to the teeth. Coincidentally, Canada has a murder rate of only around 50% higher than Oz, compared to the US murder rate of 400-500% higher than Oz. Fascinating. Cheers, Terry.  

i was unpleasantly surprised at a few countries on that map and thought america would be worse than it is . i dont care how safe iceland is its still too bloody cold to live in .

[70CB750]

srust -- do you feel we need to register knives? are you afraid of automobiles? how about cigarettes? maybe we should look at banning alcohol again (because THAT worked well...)?

All of the above have the ability to kill. Cigarettes and automobiles kill more people in the US yearly than guns.

Should former military be forced to register? Specifically special forces? They are trained to be weapons...

Should we register or euthanize pitbulls? Rotweillers? German Shephards? Any other animals with the propensity to be violent?

How about people who collect swords? Should those be registered?

I mean no disrespect at all and we're all entitled to what we believe. Honestly it doesn't really matter what any of us "want" to happen as the politicians are going to do what they think will get better approval ratings. Regardless of what anyone thinks. If we are going to focus on keeping the US safe maybe we should consider all of the above?

I know all of my guns are well locked up. However I would also say that I'm probably a rare exception to most gun owners in that all of my guns (with the exception of the gun i keep on person) are in a safe and the firing pins are removed (and in a different safe).

Your post is nothing more than the false equivalency argument that always gets regurgitated up in an almost knee jerk fashion whenever this discussion comes up.  It's a logical fallacy where you try and show that just because two subjects share a common trait they are equal though equivalence does not necessarily exist.  Nothing more than a tactic to avoid discussing the real issue and as such requires no other response.


On the other point, good on you that you are responsible but it seems for every one like you there is the guy who keeps it under his pillow.  That was the story of the father who's one child shot and killed the other.

I can't help to admire your flawless logic.