Poll

Read the thread, then give your answer...

The hammer would take the least time.
The feather would take the least time.
Their times would be exactly equal.

Author Topic: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?  (Read 8073 times)

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Offline sangyo soichiro

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Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« on: May 18, 2009, 12:03:01 PM »
Say you're on the moon.
You have a hammer, and you have a feather. 

You drop the hammer and measure the time it takes to hit the moon's surface.

Then you drop the feather, from the same height, and record its time.

Let's say that you are able to measure the times with absolute precision, and that they fall from the exact same height.  Assume the hammer has more mass than the feather.





Which has the shortest time? 


Edit:
The question is not if they are dropped simultaneously.  In that case, they hit at the same time.  This question is which has the shortest fall time (or are they equal) when dropped separately.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 01:46:58 PM by soichiro »
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Offline Caaveman82

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Re: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2009, 12:04:26 PM »
As I am no physics guru of any kind, I'll guess that they'd be equal?
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Offline super pasty white guy

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Re: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2009, 12:09:13 PM »
Presuming that I'm standing in the vacuum of space and not some new-fangled NASA tent with an atmosphere, they fall at the same rate.

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Offline ev0lve

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Re: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2009, 12:14:49 PM »
Hasn't that been settled for a while now?


Offline sangyo soichiro

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Re: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2009, 12:22:14 PM »
Hasn't that been settled for a while now?


He dropped them at the same time.  That's not what this question asks....   8)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 12:32:06 PM by soichiro »
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Offline heffay

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Re: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2009, 12:36:13 PM »
Hasn't that been settled for a while now?


He dropped them at the same time.  That's not what this question asks....   8)

oh, but yet it is... because only the "time it takes to fall" will be recorded.

therefore, you only record the hammer from drop to impact and the same for the feather... then compare.
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Offline DammitDan

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Re: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2009, 12:38:31 PM »
I don't think the airplane would take off.
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Offline sangyo soichiro

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Re: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2009, 12:47:04 PM »
Hasn't that been settled for a while now?


He dropped them at the same time.  That's not what this question asks....   8)

oh, but yet it is... because only the "time it takes to fall" will be recorded.

therefore, you only record the hammer from drop to impact and the same for the feather... then compare.

When you drop them separately, it is not the same as when you drop them together.  Trust me.   8)
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Offline heffay

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Re: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2009, 12:53:01 PM »
first rule in trusting... never trust anyone that says "trust me".   8)
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2009, 01:10:46 PM »
Say you're on the moon.
You have a hammer, and you have a feather. 

You drop the hammer and measure the time it takes to hit the moon's surface.

Then you drop the feather, from the same height, and record its time.

Let's say that you are able to measure the times with absolute precision, and that they fall from the exact same height.  Assume the hammer has more mass than the feather.


Which has the shortest time? 



Record the time for the feather to do what?
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Offline sangyo soichiro

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Re: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2009, 01:15:03 PM »
first rule in trusting... never trust anyone that says "trust me".   8)

Hardy har har. 
(Actually, that is quite true.)

But in this case, I am trustworthy.  Dropping them separately is different than dropping them simultaneously.



Ask this question (a similar question, yet a slightly different problem, only to illustrate the difference):
Which hits first if they are dropped at the exact same time, but from opposite sides of the moon? 

And I specified that we could measure the time with absolute precision.




Record the time for the feather to do what?


In response to Dukie's post above:  The time for the feather to hit the moon's surface.  No trick question this time. 
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2009, 01:30:03 PM »
No trick question this time. 

Maybe you can clarify your question, then.  Is it:

"Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?"

or is it

"Which has the shortest time? "


Because you stated:

You drop the hammer <... snip> Then you drop the feather,

So by definition the hammer hits first.

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Offline ev0lve

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Re: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2009, 01:33:44 PM »
No trick question this time. 

Maybe you can clarify your question, then.  Is it:

"Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?"

or is it

"Which has the shortest time? "


Because you stated:

You drop the hammer <... snip> Then you drop the feather,

So by definition the hammer hits first.

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Offline sangyo soichiro

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Re: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2009, 01:36:57 PM »
No trick question this time. 

Maybe you can clarify your question, then.  Is it:

"Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?"

or is it

"Which has the shortest time? "


Because you stated:

You drop the hammer <... snip> Then you drop the feather,

So by definition the hammer hits first.

mystic_1

Which has the shortest time.  Oops.    :-[

I don't mean this to be a cute word game.  No trick question this time.  Really. 
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Offline kirkn

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Re: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2009, 01:40:39 PM »
I agree with Heffay.  Been settled awhile.  They're both equal.



But, clearly, you're working up to telling us why that's wrong.  So go ahead, get on with it.   ;D

Offline seaweb11

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Re: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2009, 01:43:07 PM »
Yeah, like we went to the moon ::)

I can't hear what a pilot in an aircraft says through the speakers today, but Florida can hear clearly from the moon ;D ;D

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Re: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2009, 01:51:16 PM »
Where is the center of gravity of each falling object relative to the point of friction holding each object?

Do we assume instantaneous release, or is there a period of time that the deflection of each object is counter acting acceleration of lunar gravity?


is there enough experimentation & adaptation done prior to the speed test to insure zero angular momentum is applied to the objects?

Are the points on opposite sides of the moon at an equal distance from the moons center of gravity?

Are the points at opposite sides of the moon equidistant from any mountains and craters to insure the same tansverse acceleration?

are the points on opposite sides of the moon at the same angular relationship to the Earth, Sun, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune, Uranus, and the center of mass of the Earth Sun and Moon Trojan points?

Is your Absolute timepiece properly calibrated for General Relativity time effects due to the slightly different angle of travel relative to the center of the Milky Way and the direction of travel relative to the center of mass of our local  galactic cluster?




Are the objects being dropped in sunlight, artificial light, or absolute darkness? If absolute darkness, how is this accomplished? (How are we assured that not a single photon of any type will impact either object on its decent?)














I can go on, and on, and on....Almost to the point of obfuscation of the original question.


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Offline sangyo soichiro

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Re: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2009, 01:55:48 PM »
I agree with Heffay.  Been settled awhile.  They're both equal.



But, clearly, you're working up to telling us why that's wrong.  So go ahead, get on with it.   ;D


To clarify, we're talking about the case where they are dropped separately. 

Believe it or not, I am not trying to overthrow hundreds of years of physics.  But we've all grown up with it beat into our heads that they "hit at the same time."  That is true when dropped at the same time. 

Well, now the question is changed to which has the shortest fall time when dropped not at the same time

In other words, can the moon move also?  Yes, the moon can move.

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Offline mystic_1

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Re: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2009, 01:59:48 PM »
Believe it or not, a large number of people are able to discriminate between an idealized experiment and a real-world application.

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Offline sangyo soichiro

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Re: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2009, 02:05:32 PM »
Where is the center of gravity of each falling object relative to the point of friction holding each object?

Do we assume instantaneous release, or is there a period of time that the deflection of each object is counter acting acceleration of lunar gravity?


is there enough experimentation & adaptation done prior to the speed test to insure zero angular momentum is applied to the objects?

Are the points on opposite sides of the moon at an equal distance from the moons center of gravity?

Are the points at opposite sides of the moon equidistant from any mountains and craters to insure the same tansverse acceleration?

are the points on opposite sides of the moon at the same angular relationship to the Earth, Sun, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune, Uranus, and the center of mass of the Earth Sun and Moon Trojan points?

Is your Absolute timepiece properly calibrated for General Relativity time effects due to the slightly different angle of travel relative to the center of the Milky Way and the direction of travel relative to the center of mass of our local  galactic cluster?




Are the objects being dropped in sunlight, artificial light, or absolute darkness? If absolute darkness, how is this accomplished? (How are we assured that not a single photon of any type will impact either object on its decent?)














I can go on, and on, and on....Almost to the point of obfuscation of the original question.


Mark


Solve for the collision time for the two-body problem with zero angular momentum.  Make sure not to make the approximation m << M.  See if 'm' ends up in your final answer. 

You are confusing two problems that I specifically stated were different.  It is simple physics really.  All you have to remember is that the moon also moves up to meet the hammer (or feather).  They both fall towards the center of mass.  With the hammer, the center of mass is closer to the hammer than the feather assuming the hammer is more massive.

Really MarkCB750, there is no need to obfuscate the problem.   :-\
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Offline heffay

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Re: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2009, 02:06:26 PM »
if i drop them from here... they probably won't hit the moon very soon.
experiment delayed until further notice.   ;D
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Offline sangyo soichiro

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Re: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2009, 02:17:38 PM »
Yeah, like we went to the moon ::)

I can't hear what a pilot in an aircraft says through the speakers today, but Florida can hear clearly from the moon ;D ;D


Okay, I suppose we can imagine doing this experiment in a studio in the Arizona desert, but we would still have to do it in a near vacuum.   ;D
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Re: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2009, 02:58:18 PM »
In "absolute" time, all of my questions must be answered. 


Only an approximate answer can be obtained without correct answers to my questions.


Based on a two body equation the above issues would exceed or be significant relative to the movement the moons CG relative to either object. (we are talking about trillionths of a meter at a few meters of a second)  A mountain would cause deflection from an perfect line between the two CG's greater then the moons CG would move toward the object.


All this ass-ide...


The approximate answer is "equal time".



 ::)   ::)

Added...lets assume the center of mass and the center of gravity are the same... ::) ::) ::)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 03:01:44 PM by Markcb750 »

Offline mlinder

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Re: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2009, 03:24:34 PM »
'Near' vacuum isn't good enough. Any body creates gravity, and in something as large as the moon, while it is for all practical purposes a vacuum, is not a complete vacuum. The other question that needs to be asked is that if they are dropped separately, do we wait for all celestial and local bodies to be in the exact same position each time they are dropped?
Despite the last question, again, since this is NOT a perfect vacuum, we need to know the drag coefficient of each item. I'm guessing the hammer has a better drag coefficiency, otherwise bird would have hammers rather than feathers, assuming the hammers could be made to be as light as feathers...

Now, I do remember a test taking place in the early 90's that had something to do with Galileo's experiment, and it actually had the heavier object of the same physical dimensions hitting first, in terms of like zeptoseconds or some #$%*, obviously not measurable by tools of Galileo's time. Now, I can't remember what their theory was, and I never checked back to see if this theory had been proven or disproven.

However, let's assume, for this particular exercise, that Galileo's theory stood true, and the usurpers of the late 20'th century were mistaken.

We are back at the point of the moon being NOT a perfect vacuum.

Does that mean we should assume that our test takes place in a container that holds a perfect vacuum on the moon, and that all other bodies of mass in the universe are in the same place? and if so, have we made allowances for the fact that ONLY difference in gravitational influences is between the feather and the hammer? Because WHERE the hammer is at when the feather falls, and where the feather is at when the hammer falls make a difference. Have we moved the hammer directly above the container when the feather is falling at more distance than we would have to place the feather above the container when the feathe ris falling, with allowances made for the non-linear decreases and increases in distance to gravitational influences relationships?

All these need to be answered before we can answer you...

Now, if Galileo was in fact, wrong, then,. #$%*, it's kinda the same thing, but with allowances made for the minor differences.


/edit: plus all the stuff markcb750 asked. Too many undefined variables.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 03:28:35 PM by mlinder »
No.


Offline sangyo soichiro

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Re: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2009, 04:02:14 PM »
In "absolute" time, all of my questions must be answered. 


Only an approximate answer can be obtained without correct answers to my questions.


Based on a two body equation the above issues would exceed or be significant relative to the movement the moons CG relative to either object. (we are talking about trillionths of a meter at a few meters of a second)  A mountain would cause deflection from an perfect line between the two CG's greater then the moons CG would move toward the object.


All this ass-ide...


The approximate answer is "equal time".



 ::)   ::)



MarkCB750, you are overcomplicating the problem. 

Objects move toward their common center of mass (assuming no angular motion).  The more the combined masses are (with all else equal), the shorter the collision time.  This is intuitive.  Imagine the same object, if dropped on earth, takes a shorter amount of time than if dropped on the moon (if done in a vacuum, i.e., no air resistance).  Remember seeing the astronauts bouncing around in 'slow motion' on the moon?  This is because the moon is less massive.  And hence, 'g' is smaller.

G, the gravitational constant, is constant.  However, 'g', the gravitational acceleration differs depending on the masses involved (and the distance between them).  On earth, 'g' is about 9.8 m/s2.  On the moon, it is about 1.62 m/s2.  However, both of these values assume a very small test mass relative to the planet's mass.  If 'm', the mass of the object being dropped, was quite large, then we can no longer assume m << M (i.e., that 'm' is negligible), and we must adjust the value of 'g' accordingly.  Of course, the 'g' we use is only applicable to near-surface calculations, and 'g' changes as we move farther away from the earth.  But this is neither here nor there.  You should be able to see my point regarding how the masses involved can change 'g'.

Now, as long as 'm' is not zero, it has an effect, no matter how small that effect is.  The question is not what is within the limits of measurability.  The question was an ideal thought experiment meant to illustrate that objects move toward their common center of mass (assuming no angular motion).  The more the combined masses are (with all else equal), the shorter the collision time.


The "engineer" answer is therefore, "approximately equal," because he only works in the regime of what can be measured.

The "mathematician" answer is therefore, "more massive object (with all else being equal) has the shorter collision time."

The "physicist," well... he, like the engineer, prefers to work with things that are measurable, but he would concede that, theoretically, the more massive hammer (with all else being equal) would hit first even though it might be beyond our capability to measure it. 

Now we only need the priest answer and the rabbi answer to round it out.



And again, this only applies when they are released separately, not together.  Together, as Galileo showed over 300 years ago, they take the same amount of time, because it is like dropping one object with a mass equal to the combined masses of the hammer and feather.


Perhaps, when I have more time, I'll post the mathematical solution for the collision time between two massive objects, if released from a set distance with no angular momentum, and effected only by their mutual gravitational force.  You'll see that both masses end up in the solution, meaning that the collision time depends on the masses involved.  We normally neglect the smaller mass because it is soooo much smaller than the larger one (e.g., the mass of the hammer is much much smaller than the mass of the moon), but neglecting the smaller mass is fudging, and the more accurate answer is the one where we don't throw out the smaller mass.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 04:06:31 PM by soichiro »
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