Author Topic: Let's play "hide the battery"  (Read 28800 times)

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Offline the architect

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Let's play "hide the battery"
« on: May 21, 2009, 07:22:02 am »
I'm in the process of doing my first ever bike build on my first ever bike -- a cafe build on a '75 CB750K. 

Ideally, I'd like to run the smallest possible battery (or comination of batteries, hint, hint) that can be easily hidden/tucked out of the way, and still maintain my electric start.  I know, this is a tall order.  I've searched the SOHC/4 Forums and the net, in general, so I'm up to speed on many of the pros/cons, trade-offs, etc. (physical size, capacity, amp-hours, CCA's, service life . . .) 

My inspiration:
http://www.motofiaccone.com/moto/39-cb360-cafe-racer/88-hiding-cafe-racer-batteries
and
http://www.motofiaccone.com/moto/40-cl350-cafe-racer/66-building-an-aluminum-tray

A photo from the above link, for the click-shy:


But would this work on a CB750, and could it still be electric-started? 

The batteries used in the above build can be found here:
http://www.advancedbattery.com/itemdesc~product~abs+12v0.8t5lt+-+12v+0.8ah+sla+battery~ic~12v0.8t5lt~eq~~tp~.htm

This was some of my other valued reading/research:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45781.0
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=49640.0
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=47531.0
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=44025.0
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=30108.0

I'm not trying to recreate this past discussion, just trying to move the idea forward.  Any recommendations for gel cell batteries (model #'s / links are very appreciated!) or other options would be great, too. 

I'll be pitching the aged OEM wiring harness and running all fresh + new.  Haven't decided on signals yet, but LED could be an option to reduce load, if necessary.  I don't want to go HID with the headlight.  I've found a more efficient rectifier online, which claims to allow through 100% of current generated to charge the battery.

Thanks for any input -- cheers!
Rider no. 83 on the 2013 SOHC/4 Honda World Tour
Rider no. 228 on the 2012 SOHC/4 Honda World Tour
Rider no. 70 on the 2011 SOHC/4 Honda World Tour

my '75 CB750 cafe build photo documentary:  looking for the Lone Stars is like playing Where's Waldo -- enjoy.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34828040@N05/sets/72157615892537535/

CB350 twin, rigid meat grinder:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34828040@N05/sets/72157627005176764/

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Offline Ricky_Racer

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Re: Let's play "hide the battery"
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2009, 09:31:41 am »

Just a bump to kick this thread up. I'd like to see this continue and I don't have the necessary knowledge at this time to contribute.  :'(  RR

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Offline timdhawk

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Re: Let's play "hide the battery"
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2009, 11:04:25 am »
i'm not typicaly one of those "search" guys, but is a lot of info on this topic if you haven't done a search already. I only say this because i am doing the same thing and asked the same questions 6 months ago; so i know where your at.

If you search "battery relocation" you'll find a lot of "issues" regarding the minimum battery size that you can get away with on a cb750 with "stock" electricals. if you #$%*-can the starter you are almost wide open with possibilities.

The set-up im going with is two 6 Volt 12 amp batterires wired to make a 12V 12 Amp battery. that is about the minimum you can go amp wise and still be in the "that'll work if everything else is working great" range.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=24643.0

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45781.0
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Let's play "hide the battery"
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2009, 11:47:14 am »
Just a cursory observation:
In the picture I can see above, the batteries have very small wires "pigtailed" out of them.  Don't expect to run a starter motor at it's normal 120 Amp draw through wires that small.  Starter motor cables need about 8 gauge minimum for the entire path (loop) that sees starter motor currents.  That's both from and to the battery plates internal.

The picture also shows 2 -  12v batteries.  You can parallel wire these to maintain voltage and double the current >>discharge<< capacity over just the one battery.  However, batteries in parallel don't >>recharge<< evenly when configure this way.  One of them always gets fully recharged before the other, and one of them steadily weakens.  It may appear to "work" for a short while.  But eventually, one of the batteries will stop giving full power and have to be replaced.  Then the older batter will be the burden, yada yada yada.  So, you'll have to replace the other one, etc., ad nauseum.  Or, provide a mechanism to recharge the batteries independently after separating the common output connections.

If you are going to try multiple batteries, add the voltage not the current capability of each one, and wire them in series, if you want the bike to recharge them properly/reliably.

If you want to "electric start" the bike, the battery terminals must have some serious/substantial connection terminals on it.

Further, you'll note that the stock battery is "vibration isolated" from the frame with rubber grommets and rubber cushions.    These isolate life shortening vibration from the battery internal cells.
I know many "cafe racers" won't survive more than a few years.  But, if you want battery longevity, you should at least consider vibration, even if it is only the high frequencies, or the higher frequency harmonics.

There is a big difference between assembling components and "engineering" a solution.

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Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: Let's play "hide the battery"
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2009, 01:21:40 pm »
Wrap the batts in a dense foam, there, vibration is solved. I would have to go with agm batteries for this. Reason is they can be mounted in any position. You could with a gel too I suppose. Regular lead-acid, even maint-free ones cannot do this.
Main issue is capacity. Voltage is easy to come by. It is the amperage that is harder. I would suggest 2 6v batts at 12+ amps each.
All told, I would not do this as it is extra wiring and other than better hiding, not much else for gains.
I can see 1 smaller batt and dumping the starter but not 2 or more. Obviously it is your bike, you do what you think you must. I just do not see any substantial benefit is all.

Offline kghost

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Re: Let's play "hide the battery"
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2009, 03:23:26 pm »
Its fairly simple to hide the battery in either the seat hump on a cafe or in the oil tank.

Both require something other than bolting on a set of clubmans and calling it a cafe or a custom.

Both those areas allow for a fairly conventional battery.
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Offline the architect

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Re: Let's play "hide the battery"
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2009, 04:27:31 pm »
Its fairly simple to hide the battery in either the seat hump on a cafe or in the oil tank.

Both require something other than bolting on a set of clubmans and calling it a cafe or a custom.

Both those areas allow for a fairly conventional battery.


I'm hoping to get away with a fairly slim seat for this build; thus, the desire to fit a single or multiple slim batteries.

The other electronics seem to have good, modern solid state replacements available at a reasonable price (rectifier, regulator).
Rider no. 83 on the 2013 SOHC/4 Honda World Tour
Rider no. 228 on the 2012 SOHC/4 Honda World Tour
Rider no. 70 on the 2011 SOHC/4 Honda World Tour

my '75 CB750 cafe build photo documentary:  looking for the Lone Stars is like playing Where's Waldo -- enjoy.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34828040@N05/sets/72157615892537535/

CB350 twin, rigid meat grinder:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34828040@N05/sets/72157627005176764/

Blip Workshop
http://www.blipworkshop.com
http://www.facebook.com/blipworkshop

Offline Industrial Rat400f Killer

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Re: Let's play "hide the battery"
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2009, 09:21:53 pm »
I found this battery but I haven' tried it yet, it's about half the height of a stock battery and can be installed at any angle.
http://www.advancedbattery.com/itemdesc~product~12v+12.0ah+f2%3b+power-sonic+ps-12120+f2~ic~12v12t2pc~eq~~tp~.htm


This is the battery I'm currently running with no electric start of course.
http://www.advancedbattery.com/itemdesc~product~ps-1220+power-sonic+12v+2.2ah+battery~ic~12v2.2t1pc~eq~~tp~.htm

It works pretty good unless I sit at stop lights a lot then the rpms on the 400f aren't up enough to charge.  My 3 ohm coils  and head lamp will suck more juice than the bike produces when idling so I have the head lamp on a toggle.
Oh and just to prove it works I left it off the trickle charger and didn't start it for a week, A little choke and a couple of kicks it fired right up.

Offline the architect

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Re: Let's play "hide the battery"
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2009, 07:25:47 am »
I found this battery but I haven' tried it yet, it's about half the height of a stock battery and can be installed at any angle.
http://www.advancedbattery.com/itemdesc~product~12v+12.0ah+f2%3b+power-sonic+ps-12120+f2~ic~12v12t2pc~eq~~tp~.htm


This is the battery I'm currently running with no electric start of course.
http://www.advancedbattery.com/itemdesc~product~ps-1220+power-sonic+12v+2.2ah+battery~ic~12v2.2t1pc~eq~~tp~.htm

It works pretty good unless I sit at stop lights a lot then the rpms on the 400f aren't up enough to charge.  My 3 ohm coils  and head lamp will suck more juice than the bike produces when idling so I have the head lamp on a toggle.
Oh and just to prove it works I left it off the trickle charger and didn't start it for a week, A little choke and a couple of kicks it fired right up.


Are you planning on using your electric start with the first battey in your post? -- wondering if it'll take it. 

I like the price, and I could probably deal with the size.  I'm aiming for a cafe-esque two-up seat.  Still in design.

Rider no. 83 on the 2013 SOHC/4 Honda World Tour
Rider no. 228 on the 2012 SOHC/4 Honda World Tour
Rider no. 70 on the 2011 SOHC/4 Honda World Tour

my '75 CB750 cafe build photo documentary:  looking for the Lone Stars is like playing Where's Waldo -- enjoy.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34828040@N05/sets/72157615892537535/

CB350 twin, rigid meat grinder:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34828040@N05/sets/72157627005176764/

Blip Workshop
http://www.blipworkshop.com
http://www.facebook.com/blipworkshop

Offline Geeto67

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Re: Let's play "hide the battery"
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2009, 08:04:40 am »
benjie sells a battery box that lets you remount a battery under one of his seats:

http://www.benjiescaferacer.com/battbox.html

the down side: it costs. It moves weight higher up in the chassis. It requires welding and painting.

The upside?: completely hidden fullsize cb750 battery. you can go gel or sealed at this point if you want and have a wider selection. Will probably work with other fiberglass tails but looks and fits best with one of his seats.
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Offline Industrial Rat400f Killer

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Re: Let's play "hide the battery"
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2009, 08:11:31 am »
I found this battery but I haven' tried it yet, it's about half the height of a stock battery and can be installed at any angle.
http://www.advancedbattery.com/itemdesc~product~12v+12.0ah+f2%3b+power-sonic+ps-12120+f2~ic~12v12t2pc~eq~~tp~.htm


This is the battery I'm currently running with no electric start of course.
http://www.advancedbattery.com/itemdesc~product~ps-1220+power-sonic+12v+2.2ah+battery~ic~12v2.2t1pc~eq~~tp~.htm

It works pretty good unless I sit at stop lights a lot then the rpms on the 400f aren't up enough to charge.  My 3 ohm coils  and head lamp will suck more juice than the bike produces when idling so I have the head lamp on a toggle.
Oh and just to prove it works I left it off the trickle charger and didn't start it for a week, A little choke and a couple of kicks it fired right up.


Are you planning on using your electric start with the first battey in your post? -- wondering if it'll take it. 

I like the price, and I could probably deal with the size.  I'm aiming for a cafe-esque two-up seat.  Still in design.




No, I like not having the extra 5 Lbs of the starter off the bike and my it kicks so easy it's pointless to have an electric start.
I think extra tabs might need to be attached to the week tabs on those batteries. Mine has slip connectors that are a little to much slip and not enough grip so I've had to tape them up to keep the wires on. It's a temporary solution but it's works.

Offline 754

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Re: Let's play "hide the battery"
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2009, 08:45:35 am »
Lower the battery down to the swingarm, get the weight where it should be.

If you can live with a 3 or 4 in longer arm you can actually probably get the battery to sit down in the braced portion of the arm, depends on how its extended.

I should mention this, I use 5.5a for kick only, but on a warm 750cc it will still start it so I am thinking if you had around a 10 amp, kickstart it when cold, you probably could e-start the rest of the time. makes it easier to find room for the battery.
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Offline the architect

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Re: Let's play "hide the battery"
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2009, 09:06:52 am »
Lower the battery down to the swingarm, get the weight where it should be.

If you can live with a 3 or 4 in longer arm you can actually probably get the battery to sit down in the braced portion of the arm, depends on how its extended.

I should mention this, I use 5.5a for kick only, but on a warm 750cc it will still start it so I am thinking if you had around a 10 amp, kickstart it when cold, you probably could e-start the rest of the time. makes it easier to find room for the battery.

Great advice -- thanks!

I'm in Houston, where it's warm most of the time.  So, I'd rarely be starting a cold bike on a cold day (just a cold bike on a warm/hot day).  Which means I'd probably have less to overcome when using e-start.
Rider no. 83 on the 2013 SOHC/4 Honda World Tour
Rider no. 228 on the 2012 SOHC/4 Honda World Tour
Rider no. 70 on the 2011 SOHC/4 Honda World Tour

my '75 CB750 cafe build photo documentary:  looking for the Lone Stars is like playing Where's Waldo -- enjoy.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34828040@N05/sets/72157615892537535/

CB350 twin, rigid meat grinder:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34828040@N05/sets/72157627005176764/

Blip Workshop
http://www.blipworkshop.com
http://www.facebook.com/blipworkshop