Author Topic: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild  (Read 55131 times)

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Offline MRieck

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #75 on: June 29, 2009, 08:07:56 PM »



 I got a question,
 Regardless of anyones opinion on RC Products, does anyone know of anyone, turning quicker times than they did. (with the same Honda motors). using "newer technology".. it should be easier to make horsepower now, than it ever was..
It doesn't take a lot of tech to make big HP with turbo or supercharged engines. Keeping them together and building multi engined bikes takes some know how. Byron is a true genius but they weren't running NA engines. I know one guy who's CB was the the quickest and fastest NA bike with bars in the country and he is in Massachusetts. He was using CB450 valves, +.250 deck etc. Jay knows exactly who it is too though many of you guys have never heard of him.

R.S. by any chance Murphy, he was at Valdosta last year.

Sam. ;)
Yes sir....we will take drive and see him sir.....he knows me well enough. ;) ;)
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Offline MRieck

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #76 on: June 29, 2009, 08:09:50 PM »
The Yosh pistons were very smoothly cast on their skirts by comparison. Their rods were lighter, and usually weighed EXACTLY the same in a given kit, with a hand-finished appearance, numbered and with corresponding wrist pins, also numbered: very meticulous. The American rods were often tenths of a gram apart in weight, usually with as-cast finishes, wrist pins in a plastic bag together.

We always shot-peened the American rods at the machine shop next door, just in case...  ::)

Hondaman, in the interest of shedding some of my substantial ignorance, what did the shot-peen do for the rods? I'm guessing it was to clean up and smooth the finish? Did this improve strength or uniformity (or balance, I suppose)? Great discussion, by the way...
It puts the "skin" of the metal into compression and heads off cracks. Prior to it was polishing, polishing, polishing....which is great to do before peening anyway. ;)
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #77 on: June 29, 2009, 09:24:44 PM »
The Yosh pistons were very smoothly cast on their skirts by comparison. Their rods were lighter, and usually weighed EXACTLY the same in a given kit, with a hand-finished appearance, numbered and with corresponding wrist pins, also numbered: very meticulous. The American rods were often tenths of a gram apart in weight, usually with as-cast finishes, wrist pins in a plastic bag together.

We always shot-peened the American rods at the machine shop next door, just in case...  ::)

Hondaman, in the interest of shedding some of my substantial ignorance, what did the shot-peen do for the rods? I'm guessing it was to clean up and smooth the finish? Did this improve strength or uniformity (or balance, I suppose)? Great discussion, by the way...

Shot-peening of metals destresses the outer layers of the metal. When metal is cast in a mold, it invariably comes out with tiny pits and irregularities: these discontinuous surfaces create local stress points, unevenly, over the surface. If put under enough stress, the metal will crack, starting at one of these little dimples.

In addition, specifically on R/C's Honda rods of the 1970s, the flashing removal process (where the mold halves met, like on typical plastic model parts) appeared to be with a grinder of coarse grit. This leaves little swipe grooves across the ground areas, which are stress points (called "stress risers") where cracks could start. The shot peening would hammer the tops of these tiny ridges down toward the bottoms of their grooves, evening out the surfaces. This reduces the stress points, or "destresses" the surface, so a bending moment has less of a place to start a crack. Even Honda's rods have this, but not as pronounced.

If you ever polish a part, you will see the irregularities right away. Polishing rods (like MRieck says) is a great way to find these spots, and do something about them. This "something" can be as simple as firmly tapping the ridge down with a ballpeen hammer, or if it is a groove or dimple, tapping the surrounding area down to that level to even out the curves. Even this little bit of hand action can have surprising results on strength.

Besides, polished rods have less aerodynamic drag, and at the speed these rods can fly, that is actually important! Fitting a windage tray in the crankcase of the 750 engine helps at extreme RPM, too: like in the 16k RPM engines I saw (and helped with) in the midget cars around Blandinsville and Macomb (750s, minus their transmissions).

So, the same general "smoothing" rules can apply to crankshaft counterweights to reduce drag and increase surface strength: on those unique engines, the c'weights were narrowed a little and streamlined (no right-angle steps on the sides of the weights, but blended in long radii), shot-peened on their surfaces, and polished with 150 grit emery paper. The windage trays were spaced .060" from the weights, but always showed scars, indicating just how much these cases can flex!
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Offline Big Jay

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #78 on: June 29, 2009, 11:34:49 PM »
HEY 754 !  I don'y know about the NHRA hall of fame but my hero has always been ELMER TRETT !
Here's some info on him. I saw him race once back in the late 80's.....Can't even describe how awsome it was!!

http://www.motorcyclemuseum.org/halloffame/hofbiopage.asp?id=281
Elmer was my best friend. Those were some great days.

Jay

Offline Big Jay

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #79 on: June 29, 2009, 11:43:28 PM »
This from the catalog, not sure of the year, but mentions  7 sec bike on the cover.

"This kit developed specifically for the 750 Honda, adds more torque and horsepower to your motor than any bigbore kit of same displacement increase. This is a brand new crank with a 1/4 inch longer stroke. It has a special hardchrome alloy on the road and main journals to improve wear andincrease bearing life."

I believe they were brand new cranks made into welded strokers. I think Scat, and others were doing them. The journals were chromed because they couldn't straighten the cranks close enough after welding. They would under grind the journals, then chrome them up and grind them to be straight.

We do weld up strokers all the time. Busas and GRXR1000s. They are perfectly straight and nitrided.

I am almost certain that RC never had a billet stroker.

Jay
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 11:45:49 PM by Big Jay »

Offline 754

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #80 on: June 30, 2009, 12:23:46 AM »
I got to ask Jay, on your stroker crank, can you see that they have been welded?... like on camshafts.

 The stroker CB750 crank we have here in town shows no signs of being welded at all.
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Offline Big Jay

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #81 on: June 30, 2009, 08:47:02 AM »
No you can not see any weld.

We have not done any sohc Hondas. I think a 1/4" crank would be a nice addition to one of our 1000 piston kits ;D

Offline BLUE71TURBO

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #82 on: June 30, 2009, 08:41:33 PM »
What would a knife edged, stroked, and balanced crank job cost ?  Also do have stroker pistons ?
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Offline michrobi

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #83 on: June 30, 2009, 10:22:22 PM »

The Cobra literature can be downloaded in full scan resolution here:

http://s271.photobucket.com/albums/jj150/michrobi/Cobra%20Documentation/

-Mike

'78 CB750F All stock except for the powerplant. Jived it off my Dad in the spring of '94. He had it since 1980 and it's the first bike I ever rode on.

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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #84 on: June 30, 2009, 10:23:04 PM »
Oh geez, here we go again.  :o  I may have asked you to start the 1000 kits and the rods but not a stroker crank. Just keeps getting better.

Jay, I sent a PM but didn't hear from you. I asked if you matched pistons to cylinders on my block and what clearance did you bore it to?

Thanks for a great looking job.

Jerry
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline bear

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #85 on: July 01, 2009, 01:18:30 AM »
Struth,

You blokes are keen.
It seems like a lot of effort and money on an engine that will struggle for reliability.
I do have to say though, that the knowledge and expertis on this forum is truly impressive.
What about the age old sohc weak links?
Cam chain
Primary
Conrods. Don't know about the alloy golden rods??

Then there are issues with ripping the dogs off 2nd gear, ripping up the cush drives and eating up clutches.

Cheers,
Brian

The older I get the faster I was.

Offline hav150

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #86 on: July 01, 2009, 03:25:31 AM »

Offline fishhead

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #87 on: July 01, 2009, 05:32:46 AM »
Heres a link to a magazine on article on building the RC Engineering Cobra.

http://www.hondahog.com/RCeng_01.htm

I think the "King Cobra" may have been the engine with the stroker crank.
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Offline MRieck

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #88 on: July 01, 2009, 05:45:43 AM »
Struth,

You blokes are keen.
It seems like a lot of effort and money on an engine that will struggle for reliability.
I do have to say though, that the knowledge and expertis on this forum is truly impressive.
What about the age old sohc weak links?
Cam chain
Primary
Conrods. Don't know about the alloy golden rods??

Then there are issues with ripping the dogs off 2nd gear, ripping up the cush drives and eating up clutches.

Cheers,
Brian


  Those issues be can covered including the primary cush drive. There is also a modern cam chain tensioner unit which has no moving parts. Carrillo, Crower and Falicon all make modern steel rods. Undercutting the transmission helps ease engagement which doesn't put such a load on second but I never really found second to be an issue. ??? Big issue on other bikes especially the FJ1100/1200 and ZX-11. Somebody on the board is working on a a primary chain tensioner unit and it is very promising. You can  build one of these engines today to a far more reliable standard than you ever could in the past.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #89 on: July 01, 2009, 06:57:04 AM »
Struth,

You blokes are keen.
It seems like a lot of effort and money on an engine that will struggle for reliability.
I do have to say though, that the knowledge and expertis on this forum is truly impressive.
What about the age old sohc weak links?
Cam chain
Primary
Conrods. Don't know about the alloy golden rods??

Then there are issues with ripping the dogs off 2nd gear, ripping up the cush drives and eating up clutches.

Cheers,
Brian



The cam chain story is only an issue on racetracks where the RPM is consistently above 7500 and the stock path is used: the smart return angle upward around the tilting roller snaps the oil out of the chain at those speeds. The new tensioner MRieck mentions stops this by changing the path to be more like later designs. On street bikes, it has never been and issue.

The 2nd gear story was due to the shifter drum not pushing the 2nd gear set together far enough. The K4 and later shift drum will solve this problem, because the nub in the groove was extended a couple of mm to pull the dogs together more closely.

The rivets on the clutch basket could give up in dragracing, but I never saw it in roadracing. Mostly, they got replaced with grade 8 Loctited bolts and nuts to solve it.

The biggest problems I saw with primary chains was the tendency of the wrenchee to "flip" the chains around, thinking he was extending their life. Nothing could be further from the truth, and chain builders will tell you so. This causes metal migration within the pin-bushing bearing area, which will jam the roller bushings if it goes far enough. The issue that makes the wrenchee want to do this is the pronounced wear on the chain that is closest to the clutch hub: the crankshaft, crankcase and mainshaft 'twist-and-shout' during hi RPM flexing makes the path longer for the outer chain, so it stretches more. The best solution is more frequent chain change, or M3's HD version. I'm looking at another version, myself.

The primary tensioner can use a little help to control this differential slack situation. I haven't been following those developments, myself: the perfect solution would be a twin-roller affair so as to accommodate the differential flexing issue (i.e., two tensioners, independant). Alternately, a roller that could tilt, so it could rise toward the outer side and help take up the longer chain there, would help.

But, like MRieck says, there are so many good racing parts today for these engines that it's like the Ford FE engine of the 1960s, now: you can build nearly twice the HP and still ride it across the country on a summer tour, with impunity!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline bear

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #90 on: July 01, 2009, 08:32:12 AM »
All good points MRieck and HondaMan.
I guess I'm coming from a different angle.
W'ere racing an historic sidecar down here and the issues I've mentioned above are the problems we have wrestled with.
I assumed the drag racing blokes up your way would be facing the same problems.
Until recently sourcing after market parts down in this part of the world was a bit tricky.
So we tend to get our noses in the parts bin and retro fit bits from different models.
Our little motor uses 70mm RC45 pistons and a crankshaft from a CB900 twin cam motor.
The big motor is running 74mm pistons sourced from an XR250R, using the same crank.

Cheers,
Brian
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Offline Big Jay

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #91 on: July 01, 2009, 09:22:08 AM »
Oh geez, here we go again.  :o  I may have asked you to start the 1000 kits and the rods but not a stroker crank. Just keeps getting better.

Jay, I sent a PM but didn't hear from you. I asked if you matched pistons to cylinders on my block and what clearance did you bore it to?

Thanks for a great looking job.

Jerry

Sorry I did not see the PM thing up there. Yes your pistons are matched to the bores. They should be numbered. .002"

Thanks

Jay

Offline Big Jay

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #92 on: July 01, 2009, 09:29:49 AM »
What would a knife edged, stroked, and balanced crank job cost ?  Also do have stroker pistons ?

$1080.75  We don't have stroker pistons. Would have to run a spacer under the block. Not sure if there is enough cam chain for that. Shorter rods is also an option. That was how RC did it. All of our GSXR1000s use shorter rods.

Offline michrobi

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #93 on: July 01, 2009, 07:34:16 PM »
Side covers off, points and clutch removed



Balancer and linkage removed



I need to fab up a 750 engine mount bracket before I get into the cases.

I've decided to go ahead and rebuild my stock 76K 736cc, so I can take my time on the Cobra. That means updates (pertaining to progress at least) to this thread will be on hold until the 736 is done. I'm in hopes I'll have that rebuild done within a couple weeks.

-Mike

'78 CB750F All stock except for the powerplant. Jived it off my Dad in the spring of '94. He had it since 1980 and it's the first bike I ever rode on.

Current project: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67756

How's them SOHC4 patches coming?

Offline MRieck

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #94 on: July 01, 2009, 08:14:44 PM »
Side covers off, points and clutch removed



Balancer and linkage removed



I need to fab up a 750 engine mount bracket before I get into the cases.

I've decided to go ahead and rebuild my stock 76K 736cc, so I can take my time on the Cobra. That means updates (pertaining to progress at least) to this thread will be on hold until the 736 is done. I'm in hopes I'll have that rebuild done within a couple weeks.
 
 Good luck with that son....you'd be surprised. ;)
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 08:16:16 PM by MRieck »
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Offline BLUE71TURBO

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #95 on: July 01, 2009, 08:28:58 PM »
What would a knife edged, stroked, and balanced crank job cost ?  Also do have stroker pistons ?

$1080.75  We don't have stroker pistons. Would have to run a spacer under the block. Not sure if there is enough cam chain for that. Shorter rods is also an option. That was how RC did it. All of our GSXR1000s use shorter rods.

Thanks for the info Jay !  On the subject of rods, what rods are available for the cb750 that would work with the
stroker crank ?  Anything factory from honda or do you have to have some custom made from the likes of carrillo ?
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Offline MRieck

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #96 on: July 01, 2009, 09:34:37 PM »
What would a knife edged, stroked, and balanced crank job cost ?  Also do have stroker pistons ?

$1080.75  We don't have stroker pistons. Would have to run a spacer under the block. Not sure if there is enough cam chain for that. Shorter rods is also an option. That was how RC did it. All of our GSXR1000s use shorter rods.

Thanks for the info Jay !  On the subject of rods, what rods are available for the cb750 that would work with the
stroker crank ?  Anything factory from honda or do you have to have some custom made from the likes of carrillo ?
Dude....shorter rods from Carrillo are doeble........price wise forget it. They would be about 1,500.00...at least.  Stroker plates suck....you run out of cam chain fast. Jay said it first.
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Offline BLUE71TURBO

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #97 on: July 01, 2009, 10:48:04 PM »
Well if you think the rods are too expensive, the spacer under the cylinder block is out of the question, then what in the hell is the use of a stroker crank ?   ???
I guess you would have to order some custom stroker pistons and what would the cost of those be compared to the
carrillo rods ?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 11:09:42 PM by BLUE71TURBO »
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Offline bear

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #98 on: July 02, 2009, 04:23:23 AM »
Well if you think the rods are too expensive, the spacer under the cylinder block is out of the question, then what in the hell is the use of a stroker crank ?   ???
I guess you would have to order some custom stroker pistons and what would the cost of those be compared to the
carrillo rods ?

Come on fellas
 
Why is everybody fixated on after market gear?
If you want a stroker you can mix and match Factory gear.
Bol'Dor 900 crank.
CB1100R rods
RC45 pistons
Adds:-  hy-vo chains
           6 spring Goldwing clutch
           17mm gudgon pins
           and no barrel spacer required!
           
Cons: Bloody electrics and a bit of stuffing around.

So whats the go, do you yank's prefer to buy it all off the shelf?

Cheers,
Brian
The older I get the faster I was.

Offline MRieck

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Re: CB750 1000cc RC Cobra Rebuild
« Reply #99 on: July 02, 2009, 07:32:08 AM »
Well if you think the rods are too expensive, the spacer under the cylinder block is out of the question, then what in the hell is the use of a stroker crank ?   ???
I guess you would have to order some custom stroker pistons and what would the cost of those be compared to the
carrillo rods ?

Come on fellas
 
Why is everybody fixated on after market gear?
If you want a stroker you can mix and match Factory gear.
Bol'Dor 900 crank.
CB1100R rods
RC45 pistons
Adds:-  hy-vo chains
           6 spring Goldwing clutch
           17mm gudgon pins
           and no barrel spacer required!
           
Cons: Bloody electrics and a bit of stuffing around.

So whats the go, do you yank's prefer to buy it all off the shelf?

Cheers,
Brian
It all comes off of some shelf. RC45 pistons?....that isn't cheap. They sold about 100 RC45's of them in the USA. ;) so they aren't a junkyard item. I have no problem missing and matching OEM parts but sometimes it is reinventing the wheel (which takes a lot of time). Shorter rods for strokers is easy..... Carrillo has them on the shelf for busa's......it's just expensive. You should see the heavy duty primary chain sets for the 750....better than than the CR chains. I sent 2 sets to a fella in Great Britian so I know there are some over there.
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