Author Topic: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???  (Read 3490 times)

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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« on: July 15, 2009, 05:53:41 pm »
Hi All...you might remember me from my "oil circulation" problem post and my favorite problem bike, my Honda CB750 K (1976)...why doesn't she love me back!?

Anyways...to bring you up to speed, I have disassembled the clutch, so the clutch basket is empty...the friction disks and metal plates have been removed.  I run the bike for two minutes (i'm in the garage and will suffocate if i go much longer, okay, at least get a headached)...and no oil is being emitted from the end of the shaft (countershaft?)...there that hole at the end of the shaft where i believe lubrication should be spitted out onto the spinning discs?

What do I do now?...and yes, I cleaned the mesh oil screen on the oil pump already (result of last post).  I have new frictions disks ready to go on but whats the point if no oil is going to be there.  The old discs I removed were oily but not dripping in oil.

Please help...a poster previously had something about an o-ring if leaking would then fail to force oil up into the shaft??? or a plug which might pushed in to far...I've never been able to locate these parts on the fiche.

...thanks!!!..ron.
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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2009, 06:02:28 pm »
Oh, btw, the original problem was hardshifting between 1 and second (got hung up in neutral everytime and clunk into first or clutter up to second from there).

Also, I can take a long this kabob type stick and run into through to the other side till i feel it hit rubber? i think.  There is some fresh oil on the stick on about 1/3 of the stick towards the left side (gear shifter side)

thanks.
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Offline Industrial Cafe

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Re: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2009, 08:03:26 pm »
under the shift cover is an aluminum "doodad" that holds the bearing. oil is pushed thru that from the oil pump to lubricate the trans and clutch, check that out... I had a cracked one.

everything I say is pure speculation and
I have no idea what I'm talking about  ._.


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Offline Industrial Cafe

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Re: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2009, 08:12:40 pm »
I don't have a camera anymore, but It goes here.

everything I say is pure speculation and
I have no idea what I'm talking about  ._.


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Offline CB750F2

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Re: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2009, 10:26:27 pm »
G'Day Ron. I think I was the previous poster that you were referring to. The part no of the rubber plug that I was referring to is 11209-300-000 and is called - plug, sealing rubber, 8.5mm. This plug is held in place by the transmission cover. You may not see it behind the gasket if the gasket is still in place. If the rubber plug has been pushed in too far it can block off the oil passage to the bearing spoken about by Industrial Cafe. Look around the area to the bottom left of the red circle in the photo. I suggest that you remove it and ensure that the oil passages are clear. Hope this helps. Pat
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Pat from Australia

Offline 750goes

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Re: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2009, 01:37:53 am »
I had the exact problem you are having -

the oil gets pumped along the galley to the left when sitting on the bike - where the galley ends is a rubber plug as Pat mentioned.

This plug really only diverts the oil from the galley up across the main shaft where it spits out on the clutch end...and the bearing thingy that covers this area in the photo needs to be removed to check if its passage is clear.

I would start by removing the shifter cover - remove the oil galley plug (carefully) - and then kick the motor to see if oil comes out where the plug was .... if it does then continue following the path of the oil up to the main shaft - then blow compressed air through the main shaft to clear its throat.... hope this helps

 :)


my plates were that dry they were rusty..

Offline Industrial Cafe

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Re: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2009, 06:29:29 am »
that cover (that I don't have a picture of) is hard to get off, it's 3 big phillips screws, and they're staked.
 I used a number 3 phillips and a hammer while pushing hard on the screwdriver and twisting it counter clockwise, I whacked it with the hammer.

unless you have an impact driver, then you got it easy.
everything I say is pure speculation and
I have no idea what I'm talking about  ._.


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Offline mystic_1

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Re: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2009, 06:57:33 am »
Dude, an impact driver is like $5 at Harbor Freight.  Get one.

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Offline Industrial Cafe

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Re: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2009, 08:05:13 am »
who's this "harber frayte" you speak of?
I don't think he lives around here...
everything I say is pure speculation and
I have no idea what I'm talking about  ._.


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Offline mystic_1

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Re: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2009, 08:32:08 am »
Since "around here" is teh interweb, my fine fellow forum member, get thee to their website:

http://www.harborfreight.com/

:)

Or, go to a real tool store and buy one for $10.  :)

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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2009, 08:48:22 am »
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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2009, 08:55:53 am »
Okay, finally got the pic in there...

thanks for all the post, I've been trying to catch up to them and "work" at the same time.


So I see the bearing holder/alumimun thingy...and I found the plug on the fiche (crankcase section) but its location is not clearly indicate but you kind gentlemen have noted that...

"where the galley ends is a rubber plug as Pat mentioned"
and "under the transmission cover"

So, r u referring to the bottom galley of the oil bearing holding...there is a black arrow on my diagram pointing up at a diagonal...Pat, I'm assuming then that your are referring to the cover over this area as the "transmission" cover?

...sorry for being so dense but I really think we are on to something and am very excitied about maybe not having to split my cases.


Also, Does anybody have the 750 oil flow diagram?...I misfiled it and would love to have it again.
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2009, 09:35:45 am »
its location is not clearly indicate but you kind gentlemen have noted that...

"where the galley ends is a rubber plug as Pat mentioned"
and "under the transmission cover"

So, r u referring to the bottom galley of the oil bearing holding...there is a black arrow on my diagram pointing up at a diagonal...


Yup, that's the wee little bugger just under the end of the arrow, opposite the arrow head.


For the flow diagram, try the tech pages on the main website.  Pretty sure there's a link to it in there somewhere.

mystic_1
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Offline Industrial Cafe

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Re: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2009, 09:49:21 am »
not to jinx it, but
I hope the lack of oil didn't screw up your shift forks.
(like it did mine)
everything I say is pure speculation and
I have no idea what I'm talking about  ._.


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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2009, 10:30:45 am »
Me too...don't make me cry yet.  The shifting problem was quite recent but also quite bad, so it could go either way...firsts thing first...will take apart this weekend and post what I see/happens...thanks everyone!
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Offline 750goes

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Re: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2009, 01:40:25 pm »
the plug is under the bottom left arrow - right where it ends...
you can also blow air back along that oil passage if you want to - it runs back to the oil pump.....another line checked...

 :)

Offline CB750F2

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Re: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2009, 09:49:03 pm »
I am sorry for the slow reply but the big time difference between Aust and US puts us out of sync. Yes, I call the cover over the area in your diagram as the transmission cover and 750goes and Industrial Cafe have indicated where the rubber plug is and how to make sure the oil passages are clear. If you take the plug out and look carefully you will see the passage to the transmission shafts and bearings branching off upwards and to the right. It will be easy to see that if the plug is too thick or pushed in too far this oil passage can be blocked off. I assume that the Honda designed it this way so that the plug can be removed so that the oil passages can be checked easily for blockages. Please be aware that this oil comes from the scavange pump which pumps oil at low pressure and it takes a few seconds after starting the bike before oil will flow from the end of the transmission shaft - clutch needs to be removed to view this. If I remember correctly the volume coming from the hole in the end of the shaft is not all that great - it doesn't squirt out. I mentioned this because you said that your clutch did have oil on the plates. Pat
Regards
Pat from Australia

Offline 750goes

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Re: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2009, 02:35:07 am »
Yes,

That was my problem, when I took off the transmission cover, my plug was half missing, and dropping a fair amount of oil about - so being a good little boy scout I plugged it up, BUT unfortuantely inserted a larger/longer bung in there, and effectively blocked all oiling for my transmission and clutch - hence some nasty surpirses a bit later (one stuffed clutch)...only riding around the carpark so hopefully no long term damage was done. Since have the right plug and oil takes a bit of time to come out as Pat has mentioned.

got an update for us ??

Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2009, 08:00:53 am »
Unfortunately, no cuz I've been in a life and death struggle with the drainbolt on my CB450 (which I've finally won!).

Thanks for the clarifications...I ran my bike though for almost two minutes and no oil came out...I think its possible that some is making it throught the shaft but definitely not enough...here's a curious thing...at some point of this process of exploring the hard shifting menace, I removed the "trans" cover to check out the shifting mechanism...everything seemed okay, but after a test start, i had a pool of oil underneath my bike...I just figured the gasket had gone bad and needed to replace...hmmmm, no me think it could be related to this plug...the leak was definitely coming from the trans cover...

...well, will take apart this weekend if not tonight at see what is and isn't there...you Aussie's have been great help...thanks.
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2009, 09:07:53 am »
If the rubber plug is left out completely, the paper gasket isn't enough to contain the pressure so you get a leak from the cover and no pressure to the shaft.  If it is leaking from that spot outside the motor it is also leaking inside the motor, so all your pressure is gone. This could be your issue.

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Offline Industrial Cafe

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Re: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2009, 09:16:48 am »
I concur :)
everything I say is pure speculation and
I have no idea what I'm talking about  ._.


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Offline CB750F2

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Re: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2009, 02:28:13 pm »
+1 on the possible internal leak. Pat
Regards
Pat from Australia

Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2009, 06:08:45 pm »
Surprise...wtf...the plug is still there...it looks stock as it fits just beautifully...actually looks like a seal.

...damn, now what?...should I start the engine with the trans/shift lever cover off and see what happens?...remove the seal/rubber stop and check passages with compressed air?...go right to the counterbearing holder and remove...btw, the counterbearing holder does not looked cracked from the outside...of course it could be blocked...

ah well, opinions greatly appreciate...I would just pick at the rubber stop and remove it but it looks like its on there so nicely i don't want to rip it...but I guess it would be easy to replace.

well...let me know thanks, ron.
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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2009, 07:32:38 pm »
One more thing...there was plenty of fresh oil in shift mechanism area because as I removed the cover a nice amount of fresh oil (I had just changed it) oozed out...maybe a couple cups or so.

Does the scavenger pump feed this area and the counterbearing shaft?...cuz if it does, then oil is most likely making to the plug and probably beyond.

...guess, I'm answer my own question...going to have to remove that plug to find out...right?
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: Clutch...No Oil from Shaft???
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2009, 08:46:39 pm »
If you want you can remove the countershaft bearing holder and you'll be able to see the end of the passage, no need to disturb the plug that way.

mystic_1
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